***** The Platinumill Exposed and on Trial *****

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aflac, that is my question exactly since some of the media I have found note the comb as being "wash coated" that would seem to be the best. to simple disolve away the wash coat. here are a couple of the articles I'll use as a reference for my question.
http://www.materialkemi.lth.se/for_students/courses/course_projects/Catalysts/Catalysts-filer/Page302.htm

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5108716.html

this all being said, if there is a resin that can disolve away the wash coat, leaching may still be a viable option.
 
Just found that the "wash coat" is alumina oxide with ceria,, the metals are coated on to this washcoat ,,, the coating (alumina oxide) has microscopic tunnel system, After the metals are put on the pgms's get into these tunnels, the substrate is heated and the pgm's get trapped&fused into the material. WIKIpedia--Ceria has been used in catalytic converters in automotive applications. Since ceria can become non-stoichioimetric in oxygen content (i.e. it can give up oxygen without decomposing) depending on its ambient partial pressure of oxygen, it can release or take in oxygen in the exhaust stream of a combustion engine. In association with other catalysts, ceria can effectively reduce NOx emissions as well as convert harmful carbon monoxide to the less harmful carbon dioxide. -----------NEXT IS THE BEST one that i have found, it covers foil converters , but the science I believe is the same,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/70183951.html 99.9% RECOVERY!!!!! after second 5hr wash Frog
 
I am very new to all of the idea of recycling converters for profit. I did not know there were such valuable materials in the things until I read an article on MSNBC about how crackheads are running around stealing them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23117250/

This spurred the idea of gathering and recycling locally, until my local scrap yard told me he would give me 5 bucks for each beaded converter and 3 for each one with the honeycomb catalyst. Not really what I was looking forward to. I have since scoured the internet for everything that I can learn on this topic and have found this site to be the most helpful, despite some of the breaking of the ranks with the ideas on how best to extract the PGMs. That's to be expected. Everyone has their own ideas and thoughts on how they can get the most bang for their buck, and without a great deal of experimentation with varied practices on small and large scale levels, it is difficult to make a determination.

On to my question(s). Basically what I am looking for is this: What has been the most successful and cost effective way, that the forum has collectively found, to process these treasures? For someone working from the ground up, would it be more plausable to just sell the whole converters to someone (a reseller) or gather enough to send to a large recycler? Would it be a better idea to handle the seperation of the materials myself, or send it through a company like mid west refineries(or possibly another one who would better serve me)? I very much would like to get as much information as possible so that I can hit the ground running with this. Through speaking with a number of local businesses, I know that I can get ahold of several hundred converters (free to cheap) to get me started.

Any information/expertise that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. I am in the SE Texas area (Froggy, fairly near to you) and any information, including possible related local businesses and suppliers, that can be gained to get this kicked off would be great. I have been reading a lot on the forum and have found some definite routes not to explore (platinumill!!!!) and a little direction in terms of what I should be looking towards (ex: toyota converters have high concentrations of rhodium).

Again, any help is appreciated.
 
Exactly Rich, Cordierite is the main substrate and the washcoat is alumina oxide and Ceria, the last link I posted said the substrate wasnt effected but that was a foil converter,,,,, Hell, just use sulfuric 70% disolve the whole subsstrate, ionize the metals and everything, dillute,and chunk in some sr-3 or dowex 24 xlt or similar, collect ans smelt!sounds like it would work to me?
 
Holy crap! someone from my neck of the woods, Welcome...Damn I thought I had the whole city wrapped up to myself :lol: Well my friend start WAY BACK at the first tpage of this thread and read the entire thing about 3-5 times , and look and read all the links, this will catch you up,,,, as far as the best process, thats what this thread is all about,,,,as far as I know , nobody here is making a buck with this (YET)
 
I have read everything a couple of times. I have been on here for hours and my wife has walked in a few times and asked if i was watching porn because there was no way I could be reading for pleasure for this long. I found this site this morning and been on here for probably 10 hours or more today. I have read a good bit on using the washing method (what the platinumill is supposed to do) and some on smelting it and there was something on about page 20 that mentions an instant invention with enviromentally friendly solutions to suspend the metal ions in prior to seperation. All of this is informative, but I am seriously rusty on the whole chemistry thing. I have not had a class since my first year of college about 10 years ago.

Frog, with your setup, have you run a batch yet to see what sort of slime/precipitant you have processed? when do you plan to have it assayed for content? Am i confusing threads when I thought that I read the method you are employing cuts a lot of the rhodium content? Just trying to get some prelim ideas to see what is going to be the best plan of attack for this.
 
Welcome to the forum. We are all trying to get a handel on the process for the cats. Pull up a chair and welcome. 10 hours on the computer, :p
I know that one all to well.

Froggy is on a dead mans run now.
 

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It seems odd that considering this has been a business for some (as obscure as it may have been) as long as it has been, that there arent any definitive processes established for extracting these metals. Are we just all of the hard headed ones that would rather beat our heads against the wall until we come up with a solution than give up a little of the money to a company who processes tons of this material daily at what is probably a far more efficient process, in terms of chemical and process costs and greater efficiency in terms of percent of PGMs extracted? Either way, if we are going to build a better mouse trap, I am glad there are lots of us who are hard headed and greedywith respect to eliminating middle men.
 
Lou said:
OK guys, the problem with using silver as your collector is (drum roll please) COST!! To process a large amount of converters milled/crushed to dust would require a darn large amount of silver. If you've got a couple 1,000 oz. bars lying around God Bless, but I don't think you need to be refining to make money.
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Well, Lou, I'm just thankful you didn't say a troy TON of silver. hahahaha

Now my next question would be how much copper or silver would it take to collect the values in say ten converters with an average combined weight of substrate of 50 lbs.? The induction furnace I am looking at looks like it would only hold ten or twenty converter's crushed substrate.

On a side note, I had 1000 troy oz. of silver once. Electrical contacts, I went to a refiner that had a quote on the door saying "Honesty is the best policy". They did a wonderful assay for me coming to this 1000 troy oz. figure. So I said go ahead and process. Low and behold I get an invoice from them paying me for 334 oz. I immediately called them and asked what happened to the other 666 oz. ?? They calmly said it "vaporized". I said I'm more than aware of precious metals vaporizing in the incineration or melting process but the industry standard is approximately 1 to 2 % or less and also, all refiners clean out their stacks and recover this anyway.

If I ever see anyone from a refinery on the golf course. I'm going to calmly aim my golfball at them and after it hits them , I will innocently say "I'm sorry, must have been a vapor cloud that affected my trajectory." :)
 
Working with the platinum group of metals isn't a place where you CAN get rid of the middle man. The "middle man" you speak of is the final refiner. Industry will not buy from you as an individual, and even some of the major refiners won't do business with you. Try to sell to Johnson-Matthey, for example. Only if you're an established business with an account with them will they entertain your inquiry. My 70+ ounces of platinum sponge wasn't enough to gain their interest. I think there's a message in that.

Save for possibly one person on this forum (it's not me), it's highly unlikely anyone can process the platinum group in such a way that it can be liquidated without selling to a refiner, or someone that has the refiner as the final destination. For starters, who amongst the readers has the proper furnace? Who amongst us has the capability to alloy properly, and fabricate the material in a useful form? That's what major refiners do, and they have the staff, equipment, and credentials that make it possible. They also have a customer base, something that is very difficult to cultivate.

You're flat kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Harold
 
daveerf said:
Now my next question would be how much copper or silver would it take to collect the values in say ten converters with an average combined weight of substrate of 50 lbs.? The induction furnace I am looking at looks like it would only hold ten or twenty converter's crushed substrate.
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Be very careful about getting involved with an induction furnace. If you don't understand their operation well, you'll make mistakes that won't be to your liking. Large units generally require three phase power, with considerable amperage. It's unusual for the typical person to have access to three phase-----and it's damned expensive to have installed, assuming the power company that serves you is willing.

More to consider; you can't introduce the media to an induction furnace and get it molten-----it simply won't respond properly. You can heat metals until they're at the state of being molten, then introduce the media, but the temperatures involved are extreme. Aluminum oxide melts at something like 4,000°F, a temperature well beyond that of molten platinum. It is typically melted by arc furnaces, not induction furnaces. You'd have to explore a flux that would permit dissolving, not just melting, the media. That will have a corresponding amount of wear on the furnace. Also, be aware the frequency of the furnace plays a big role in how it will perform with any given material,

On a side note, I had 1000 troy oz. of silver once. Electrical contacts, I went to a refiner that had a quote on the door saying "Honesty is the best policy". They did a wonderful assay for me coming to this 1000 troy oz. figure. So I said go ahead and process. Low and behold I get an invoice from them paying me for 334 oz. I immediately called them and asked what happened to the other 666 oz. ?? They calmly said it "vaporized".
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Having refined thousands of ounces of contacts, perhaps I can put your mind at ease. If your contacts were large, many of them are made from sintered tungsten, bonded with silver. The majority of their weight is tungsten, so you'd expect considerable loss in refining. It's been years, but as I recall they run over 50% tungsten. If you submitted such contacts, the back side would have had a waffle pattern, which is unique to the tungsten contacts.

Harold
 
aflacglobal said:
Dam Harold what seems to be your problem ?
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It's not a problem. It's experience. I've been there with the platinum group of metals. I've liquidated relatively large volumes of both platinum and palladium. I did so through more than one major refiner.

What are your qualifications? You show me, then we'll have something to discuss. Start with telling me how your sales went.

What, no sales?

How is it you think you know so damned much about this subject when you've not experienced it personally? Can you show me any platinum? Palladium? Sales receipts? You don't like hearing of real life experiences? Do you commonly kill the messenger when he makes statements that you don't want to hear?

It's time the crapola gets cleared and people get down to serious consideration before some of these guys lose their butts in a venture that is almost sure to fail. Major refiners will see to it, and they are the sole source for marketing the materials, assuming you're successful in recovering them.

Having said the above, I hope, for the sake of those involved, that I'm wrong. As I said, "show me".

Harold
 
The big mining companies and the refiners are a big club. I won't say they are a cartel but close to it. It's much like the diamond trade where the DeBeers cartel regulates prices by controlling the amount that hits the market at a given time. You deal on their terms or eke out a living by scratching out some niche.
There's a massive amount of PGMs tied up in catalyst and every year the reserve becomes larger.The producers have a vested interest in regulating the recovery from cats because it competes with their virgin production. The refiners know which side their bread is buttered on and will no jeopardize their contracts with the big producers by encouraging mom and pop operations, that if allowed to flourish, could put pressure on prices and lower their profit margins.
 
Ah, Harold, I reread my post and figured someone would not take it like I was trying to say because I didn't explain it in more detail. There was a total of 1700 oz. of material. The assay was for 1003 oz. of silver contained therein....
 

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