using AP method for gold filled

[nickvc]

If any of the foils are thick you may struggle to dissolve them with HCl / Cl so make sure to keep your solution well stirred after adding the Cl exposing the foils to the chlorine produced.

 

[DylanDownright84]

I ran out of daylight so I just kept washing it. Hey Geo, did you see the pic I posted of the gold stuff in the pyrex bowl? That's what I've been soaking for 9 days now. I read what you posted about gold filled, but I still couldn't tell what it is exactly. Honestly, it looks like gold over copper possibly as of what I've been seeing since the gold started to separate. I called the guy this morning to see if he had more info on maybe what type of "gold filled" it might be and he just said it's "gold filled." And I'm not educated enough on the gold filled types to know what is what, but I'm gonna try and get some better pics today for you guys, if you think pics might help in figuring it out.

 

[DylanDownright84]

Here's some pics of me finishing up the small batch of fingers this morning. Did Hcl/Cl, let it work for a while, stirred it vigorously, inspected for undissolved gold then filtered. Came out nice and golden then I added SMB and here is where I'm at. It's sitting in the shed settling. Fingers crossed. Hoping I get a little something to show you guys after its done settling.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

How "small" of a batch?

Fingers are good to learn with, but, dont lose the small bb of gold while trying to photograph it. :wink:

 

[DylanDownright84]

Haha Topher, I'll probably wait till the very end after its melted and inside a small jar before I show you guys. It's been settling for about 2 hours now. There's a fine brown sediment spread across the bottom of the jar then there's a tiny amount of black looking sediment starting to settle on the opposite side I have the jar tilted. So do I filter it again at the end when it's all settled then melt? This is my first time doing the entire process so I'm waiting for something to go wrong.

 

[glorycloud]

Let it settle overnight. Patience is a virtue or so I have heard. 8)

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Its best to leave the powder in the beaker until its dried and going in the melt dish.

Decanting works, but you will inevitably dump a bit of powder with the barren solution. I dont like to pour powder into a filter and melt with the paper, as the ash from the filter can carry some gold away with it. So, I tend to siphon off the solution.

Then begin the wash and rinse procedure. Redissolve, re precipitate, and rewash and rinse. Wash with hcl and water (alternating) until it is clear in color. Water wash until neutral ph.
You will begin to notice, as the gold cleans up, it will begin to quickly settle and readily agglomerate.

Then dry slowly so it doesn't bump out of the beaker. After washing in HCl you will notice the color lighten up significantly. The second dissolve and precipitation ensures any impurities that didn't get washed out, stay in solution. (so long as you dont overdose with the smb)

Everything in this gig is an artform, and on this forum we have everyone from picasso, to Michelangelo, even Da Vinci. The best part, is these artists have shared their techniques with fools like me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Look up "Harolds wash" procedure, and then "high purity gold" by Lou. They are very similar, but also quite different. Either or will suffice just fine for your bit of gold.

Melting is a whole other discipline in its own right.

 

[DylanDownright84]

I really appreciate your help, Topher! I did plan on leaving it over night to settle with hopes I'll wake up to a tiny little pile in the jar and to hopefully be able to pour off as much liquid as possible without making another sludgy solution with a filter in it. I'll update tomorrow when I start the process over. You guys are awesome, thanks a bunch!

 

[DylanDownright84]

Here's the precipitation jar as of now. I also just read Harold's post about washing and I'm going to give it a go, but I'm gonna wait till I have more gold to wash. The precipitation jar looks like it need more time to settle. It looks like there's still a decent little bit of brown haze in my solution, or is that to be expected? Also, I read that sometimes a 2nd drop can be done to precipitate more gold. Considering that I'm only dealing with a minute amount of gold, I don't think it would help, or am I wrong? So far I'm pretty happy with the results of my very first full AP trial with e-scrap. The entire bottom of the jar still has a thin layer of brown sediment spread across it though. Is that also to be expected along with the fine black powder that's collected on the side I've tilted the jar on? So far the steps I've read to take after what I've done so far is to decant and collect. I don't want to possibly waste anything so I'm gonna continue to let it settle and do some more research in the meanwhile.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

I definitely wouldn't do the wash routine in that glass. Thermal shock will shatter that thing and you will be scrambling to pick up gold that looks like dirt, mixed with dirt.

And a second drop, to drop MORE gold? ..that will never happen, unless i misunderstood you. But, the second refine and drop would probably leave less powder than the first because of the impurities removed. Making more gold than there really is, from another precipitation cant happen. That's borderline alchemy talk.

 

[anachronism]

Here's the precipitation jar as of now. I also just read Harold's post about washing and I'm going to give it a go, but I'm gonna wait till I have more gold to wash.

That's good thinking Dylan. Build yourself a nice amount if you have access to the raw materials before cleaning it up. It's far more efficient in the long run.

The precipitation jar looks like it need more time to settle. It looks like there's still a decent little bit of brown haze in my solution, or is that to be expected?

Yes it can be expected, certainly more so with weaker drops and dirtier drops because the gold doesn't form particles that are as large as cleaner drops.

Also, I read that sometimes a 2nd drop can be done to precipitate more gold. Considering that I'm only dealing with a minute amount of gold, I don't think it would help, or am I wrong?

Unless there is more gold in the solution and your tests show that this is the case, there is no more gold to drop from a second drop.

So far I'm pretty happy with the results of my very first full AP trial with e-scrap. The entire bottom of the jar still has a thin layer of brown sediment spread across it though. Is that also to be expected along with the fine black powder that's collected on the side I've tilted the jar on? So far the steps I've read to take after what I've done so far is to decant and collect. I don't want to possibly waste anything so I'm gonna continue to let it settle and do some more research in the meanwhile.

That's a good plan. Don't get hung up on purifying a tiny amount. Let it build and do the whole lot together.

 

[DylanDownright84]

Anachronism, thank you! Your guidance is much appreciated, sir. Feels like I'm learning to ride a bike for the first time and you guys are helping me along. Learning to use the search engines properly has also helped a great deal also. With everything going on with these trials I forgot one important and necessary tool, stannous chloride. So until my bottle of the stuff gets here I won't be moving forward any further with the process. Such a noob mistake. Suppose it's expected in the midst of my excitement. It's hard to convey how grateful I am to you guys in your advice, guidance, and patience with me. I'll post updates as they come. Hope everyone is having a great weekend. Also, I'm looking into possibly taking a course or two on chemistry by way of an online education or a local institution to further my understanding of all this a little better. Since I still have most of my GI Bill left it won't cost me anything. Again, thanks everyone!

 

[DylanDownright84]

Just to be clear on what I've read and to make sure I'm understanding this better. So the black and brown looking precipitant is the gold? Android I save both? I still have it settling and the haze brown particles still haven't fully settled. Tomorrow at noon will make for a full 48 hours since first letting it settle. I planned on just decanting then cooking off the rest amd storing the powder until I get enough to make doing Harold's wash worth while. Just wanna make sure I have all my bases covered here since this is my very first an virgin attempt at completing this entire process.

 

[LynchMob]

Have you tested the solution (stannous)? How much SMB did you use? I'd collect all solids and process again to remove impurities. Never be disappointed with your results.....learn from them. This forum is packed full of priceless information from some of the smartest people in the field. We should all feel very, very lucky to have this luxury. After reading this forum for many years I've realized how little I truly know. Good luck in your future endeavors!

 

[upcyclist]

It must be marked 1/20 14KGF or similar marking. Just 14KGF or GF is not a true mark denoting gold filled. It must have content and Karat before I accept it as true gold filled.

That part I definitely agree with (and no worries on the rest). It's gotta have the fraction, [stt]at least in the U.S.[/stt]

Sometimes jewelers and jewelry supply places will abbreviate it (e.g., '14/20' for '1/20th 14K gold filled'), but I'm not sure I've ever seen that on a finished piece, only raw sheet & wire. [stt]Which is good, because the FTC marking regs say that ain't good enough [/stt]

Edit: I looked at the FTC regs again. No fraction is required that I can see. If it's at least 1/20th of 10K, it's gold-filled. I suppose manufacturers want it known when there's more.

 

[Tndavid]

Hey Dylan, have you thought about making you own stannous? Very very simple.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

That part I definitely agree with (and no worries on the rest). It's gotta have the fraction, [stt]at least in the U.S.[/stt]

Edit: I looked at the FTC regs again. No fraction is required that I can see. If it's at least 1/20th of 10K, it's gold-filled. I suppose manufacturers want it known when there's more.[/i]

I have came across a lot of stuff that was simply marked 14kgf
Or 10k gf
I always, ALWAYS, went under the assumption (when buying it) that it was the bare minimum % to be considered goldfill-5%-
Every time it is a higher fraction, they are pretty proud to stamp that in there so it is known. I take pictures of everything I run, I will see if I can dig up some examples I recently ran that are on my phone still.

Honestly though, so long as its all marked gf or higher fractions, it just goes in the beaker and gets dissolved with nitric, playing the "guessing game" for yield with goldfill is a futile endeavour, since the wear has an extreme outcome on yield.

So long as it doesn't have HGE on it, its subjected to nitric :twisted:

 

[upcyclist]

Yup, that's my plan--assume it's minimum (1/20), process it all the same way. Hooray for gradual additions of nitric.

Unless for some reason I run out of first-run silver before I get a big enough batch of GF to run. Then I'll inquart with it. It's really not a change in chemistry or in how much nitric I'll need. I've been buying a fair amount of coin silver lately, though, so I don't think my "silver that needs to be inquarted" pile will be getting smaller any time soon. I could also just do a straight silver run, of course, but I'd rather do it as part of a karat gold run.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Yep, best way to do it really.
Silver needing recovered?
Gold needing inquarted?
Two birds with one stone. Saving you time and money, money, money from the nitric you will save taking the silver into solution once.

Ive never done as Hoke recommends though, using goldfill to inquart karat, but I have no reason to doubt its functionality. I just prefer to use coin silver or sterling spoons. Leaving the goldfill to be run on its own.

What can I say, I like to see if the goldfill articles leave me foils or flakes, which is a good indicator of how much wear and tear they enountered in their lifetime.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

If you're talking about silver coins, I never process them, as they are self assaying. If it's coin silver, as in coin silver spoons etc., then use them to inquart.

Silver has two advantages when inquarting. First it requires less nitric than copper, but if you're dissolving the base metal in nitric anyway there's no loss. Second, if there is any platinum involved, the silver will carry some of it through in the nitric digest to be caught in the cell slimes.

Dave