Acid Peroxide Process Information Thread Q & A's

[Claudie]

You can store it in the plastic jug that it came in, just be sure to label it so you know what it is.
Read what Butcher wrote in this thread:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=16882&p=170803&hilit=storing+AP#p170803

 

[jonn]

Quick question on making AP from coppers oxide.
I calculated the ratio as 150 grams copper oxide,
370 ml hcl 32%
700 ml H2O
It made a nice emerald green color almost instantly and became slightly warm. Is my math correct please? Thanks, Jonn

 

[butcher]

Jonn,
I could calculate it weights and volumes using molarity from the formula, but I do not see any need to go to the trouble, if you added HCl to copper oxide you would get copper chlorides, either copper II chloride, or copper I chloride, if both are in solution you will have a very dark brown solution with possibly some remaining white copper I chloride powders, a little more HCl and it will turn the emerald green color you see now the copper II chloride is the green,(I believe the oxide from the copper oxide has also helped, where you didn't need to add oxygen).

From your description you are just fine with that green copper II chloride, it should be ready to dissolve more copper into solution.

 

[jonn]

Hi Butcher, how are you friend? Thank you for the perfect explanation. I realize now I forgot to add HCL to bring my acid concentration molarity up to 3.0. Figure I was at .7 when the minimum is 1.0 and the maximum 3.5. It's amazing how fast AP works from copper 2 oxide compared to copper metal and H2O2. Thank you Lazersteve for the document link
It was too soon to add the bubbler as after only hours the white copper chloride powder caked the bottom. Anyhow, I added HCL to bring my concentration molarity up to 3.0. The copper chloride redissolved and theres gold flakes like glitter in the sun :lol: I see now the solution should have been left unbubbled, allowed to react all copper metal, filter off the gold, then add the bubbler, dropping the copper chloride powder, filtering and the AP is ready for reuse. Totally amazing :mrgreen:

 

[yar]

Still studying but focusing a lot of attention on the AP process. What I have gathered is that AP solution will increase in volume the more times it is re-used. My question is has anyone gotten to the point where they have a large amount on hand and instead of neutralizing and properly disposing, can AP be separated into smaller quantities and be re-used ?
For example if you have 10 gallons, can that be poured into four 2.5 gallon lots and be continued to be re-used ?

 

[lazersteve]

Yes. Use as much as you need and properly dispose of the rest. Copper Chloride (I and II, aka: acid peroxide) have many chemical uses.

Steve

 

[Feenixb1o7]

I have been mixing my own 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide, I've been mixing 42ml H2O2 (35%) with 458ml water to make 500ml at 3% my question: When topping up an acid peroxide solution for foils, is adding JUST the 42ml at 35% the same as adding the 3% seeing as my solution is sealed so no water is lost, just the peroxide.
So surely I can just add new peroxide right? Otherwise my solution keeps building up, it started at around 300ml and is not close to 800ml.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Peroxide is only needed when you start a fresh batch of acid/peroxide. After that, you should rejuvenate your solution with a simple aquarium pump bubbling air into the solution. Air doesn't add any volume to your solution.

Dave

 

[Feenixb1o7]

I don't have one unfortunately, though I think I have an old compressor laying about somewhere.

 

[scranney]

I am still learning on refining and have been reading the forum a lot and watched steves videos.
I have about 500g of gold fingers from ram and pci boards trimmed so I am planning on doing then in the ap solution then using the bleach and hci. But I have some concerns.

My questions are.

1 if I use an air bubbler in the ap solution I will need to keep it close to my house. Will the fumes from the ap start to corrode my tin roof and gutters?

2 It does get above 40°C sometimes. If the ap gets too hot will it disovle gold?

3 do most of you just keep your ap solution in the backyard while disolving the copper from fingers or where do you normally do it if not?

Great forum everyone. Thanks

Steven

 

[butcher]

Steven,
The copper II chloride will have less fumes than the bottle of HCl does when you open it, but most any of the reactions we do produce fumes, and at times spills (catch basins are needed), any metal in the vicinity is subject to attack, tin (zinc coated steel), the zinc coating a very reactive metal, subject to attack from any of these acidic fumes, the zinc in your roof will suffer from attack of these acetic fumes, many of which when they encounter moisture in the air form acids of those fumes.

Even though the copper II chloride (AP) process is a lower fume producing procedure, you will not want to use it in your home, garage, or tool shed, or where you have metal that can be damaged, many of the processes we use are even worse, as far as producing fumes which are deadly and terribly corrosive, you need to have an area to work safely.

 

[kurtak]

Steven,
you need to have an area to work safely.

What butcher means by that is that to do "any" of this you really need to have a fume hood & scrubber set up - fume hoods & scrubbers that work can be made rather cheap & easy

Kurt

 

[Geo]

HCl fumes are heavier than air so things lower than the roof should be effected more. If you are using less than a gallon of AP at a time, outside in the back yard where the breeze can get to it should not pose too much of a problem. It's not the heat that makes AP dissolve gold but rather the peroxide in the AP that will dissolve gold. I would suggest that you create copper(II) chloride by dissolving some bare copper (such as wire) first until you get a nice green solution. You can then use this filtered solution with an air pump to process your fingers without dissolving any gold.

 

[scranney]

Thanks for your answers.
for a srubber if I am only using the copper chloride 11 and hci and bleach. Will activated charcol be ok? I saw a guy who made one on the forum using that.

Also do you clean and wash the fingers with anything special first before going in the copper chloride solution as mine are quite dusty and dirty.

 

[solar_plasma]

Also do you clean and wash the fingers with anything special first before going in the copper chloride solution as mine are quite dusty and dirty.

You don't want to work without gloves, do you? Use gloves ALWAYS when working with poisonous salts! It isn't only to prevent getting burned, but it is not pure copper chloride, you are working with! It is definately nickel (cancerogen, allergen), too, and depending on your material, you have to expect lead (dirty material/from solder), cobalt and beryllium (alloyed pins).

 

[scranney]

Sorry I ment washing the gold fingers. Not the fingers on my hands.

 

[solar_plasma]

:lol: sorry, my fault.

Some do, others don't. I think it depends on what kind of dirt it is and how much. Since it is no greater pain to give them a wash, it wouldn't be wrong.

 

[Geo]

Dirt and dust poses no problems but oil does. If the fingers are oily, wash in some warm water with dish soap. Rinse well before putting them in AP.

 

[scranney]

That was quite funny.
Thanks.

Do you think that putting activated charcol in the scrubber is fine for the ap solution and the hci and bleach?

 

[solar_plasma]

Ok, I am not an expert in scrubber systems, but since no one else answers:

HCl vapors and clorine gas.

Activated carbon alone will hold them more or less for a comparably short time, but you don't know, when the filter has its break through.

Both would react with lyes, which can be monitored by pH. But chlorine will form hypochlorite, which again will release chlorine, if the solution ever would get acidified. Just something to have in mind.

On the other side, chlorine can be used to oxidize iron II chloride to iron III chloride, which again is nice for dissolving basemetals. I don't know, if this is practical. But this is, what I would use chlorine for, if I had a lot of it dailly.

There has been written a lot about scubbers, I am sure, if you search deep enough, you will find more and better information.