Aqua Regia 1:4 VS Aqua Regia 1:3 which one is stronger?
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Thank you Freechemist for that proceedure and explaination, particularily that part about why you diluted the HCL. Steve's numbers were also a big help. With one year of college chemistry back in '58 and some recent refreshing in my text book I was able to follow all of this thread. I find my old text "College Chemistry" by Frey to be a lot better than the newer texts I find in the library. It goes into metals a lot more. I also had Frank's Qualitative Analysis for lab. That is a cook book for identifying metal and other common ions in solution. That book has first copyright at 1917 and it look's to me like Hoke adopted parts it in her book.
FrugalEE
FrugalEE
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Do I sense a little attitude developing here?freechemist said:
Let me give you something to ponder.
I was a miserable student, all through school. I was fortunate to graduate from the 12th grade, and didn't know if I would until it happened. I have virtually no formal education beyond high school. (I accept full responsibility for what I am---no need for a lecture).
As an example of my attitude through the school years, I was tested in the 5th grade, with the idea that I was unable to learn. Those responsible got the shock of their lives when the results indicated I was performing at a 9th grade level.
So then, back to high school. I took no math classes, no science classes, no chemistry classes. I didn't know SO2 from H2NO3. I failed history and had to take a repeat class in my senior year. I slept through English class and hated physical education. I excelled in machine shop and did very well in electricity and stage craft. Not quite as well in radio and electronics (the days prior to solid state).
At age 31 I got interested in owning pure gold (illegal in the US at that point in time). I got a copy, thanks to the kindness of a local jeweler, of Hoke's book. From that book I went forward to found an (unintentional) refining business that I sold when I retired, at age 54.
Do I consider myself a chemist?
Hardly.
Can I describe in fine detail how gold and other metals are refined, explaining the reactions?
Hardly.
Was I able to function as a refiner for more than 21 years?
You do the math.
While it does no harm to understand reactions, and I certainly endorse the process of learning, it is no more a requirement for refining than a requirement to understand how an internal combustion engine functions in order to drive a car. I dare say precious few truly understand how they operate, yet everyone drives.
You are likely not aware, but this forum is unlike virtually all other fora on the net. Here, you are not permitted to behave like a spoiled brat. Do not come to this forum and disparage Hoke's book. That work is a masterpiece for those of us that lack formal chemical education. It was written expressly for the novice, who most likely would not benefit from more technical writing.
Do not mock those of us that lack your education. Each of us has chosen our own course in life, and we do the best we can with that which we have at our disposal. Just as I am lost in your chemical world, I expect you would be lost in the world that I chose, that of a precision machinist working with small parts for the aero-space, pharmaceutical and defense industries.
I demand your respect if you wish to have mine.
I expect that you will not be handing out any further insults about the quality of those that subscribe to this forum. That is a ready recipe for trouble with me.
Harold
As I have said before we need a like button Harold 8)
freechemist
In Remembrance
@Harold
You have my respect. If it were not the case, I would not give you an answer on your reply. Your way of approaching excellence in refining and my way of doing the same are not very different. Both are based on the same virtue, namely a lot of respectable hard work which leads to abundant richness of practical experience and expertise. Besides, it's true, I am an academically spoiled brat and not only behaving like one. But you can be sure, even a lot of years at universities, performing a lot of studies and theoretical learning does not guarantee for success in refining. This,in general is not teached in academy, at least in the places, where I became my chemical education. To accomplish this there exists only the hard way, like you did it, too. You are right, everybody is able to drive a car, without knowing it's detailed functioning, but in case of malfunction it is an advantage for every driver even to know a little something about it.
Thus, I stay with that I have written in my post, based on my whole own
experience. It has never been my intention to insult any person, included yours.
Regards, freechemist
You have my respect. If it were not the case, I would not give you an answer on your reply. Your way of approaching excellence in refining and my way of doing the same are not very different. Both are based on the same virtue, namely a lot of respectable hard work which leads to abundant richness of practical experience and expertise. Besides, it's true, I am an academically spoiled brat and not only behaving like one. But you can be sure, even a lot of years at universities, performing a lot of studies and theoretical learning does not guarantee for success in refining. This,in general is not teached in academy, at least in the places, where I became my chemical education. To accomplish this there exists only the hard way, like you did it, too. You are right, everybody is able to drive a car, without knowing it's detailed functioning, but in case of malfunction it is an advantage for every driver even to know a little something about it.
Thus, I stay with that I have written in my post, based on my whole own
experience. It has never been my intention to insult any person, included yours.
Regards, freechemist
- Joined
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- 8,360
Freechemist,
My sincere appreciation for your thoughtful and respectful reply.
I'm sure it's difficult for a person that has succeeded in the pursuit of their choosing to try to rub shoulders with those that haven't a similar background. I offer, as an example, your making reference to Hoke's book as the Hokey Bible. I get the humor, but from the position of one that lacks the education, I fully realize the importance of that book, dumbed down as it may be. That, in fact, is exactly why it is an excellent text for those that desire to learn how to refine.
My comment about the value of her book seems a bit out of place, considering the focus of this forum tends to be in work-arounds in processing e scrap, neither of which are covered by Hoke. However, she teaches the basics that are true in almost all cases, so those that are foreign to the use of chemicals can become familiar with how they are to be applied, but especially in becoming familiar with testing procedure, including making and using test and standard solutions. Without this ability, a person is lost in the process of refining.
I worked for 26 years in the machining industry, primarily in the aero-space, defense and pharmaceutical industries, with 16 of those years running my own commercial shop. I also moderate a forum that is machine shop related. I make mention of this because I fully understand the degree of frustration you must feel when you read many of the posts on this forum. Here, just as on the forum of which I speak, there are readers that don't have a clue, therefore they must have the simplest things explained to them in terms they can understand. That's the price we must pay if we wish to share that which we know with those that have a desire to learn. It's a price well worth paying when you see the results some of these guys achieve.
Again, thank you for your kind response.
Harold
My sincere appreciation for your thoughtful and respectful reply.
I'm sure it's difficult for a person that has succeeded in the pursuit of their choosing to try to rub shoulders with those that haven't a similar background. I offer, as an example, your making reference to Hoke's book as the Hokey Bible. I get the humor, but from the position of one that lacks the education, I fully realize the importance of that book, dumbed down as it may be. That, in fact, is exactly why it is an excellent text for those that desire to learn how to refine.
My comment about the value of her book seems a bit out of place, considering the focus of this forum tends to be in work-arounds in processing e scrap, neither of which are covered by Hoke. However, she teaches the basics that are true in almost all cases, so those that are foreign to the use of chemicals can become familiar with how they are to be applied, but especially in becoming familiar with testing procedure, including making and using test and standard solutions. Without this ability, a person is lost in the process of refining.
I worked for 26 years in the machining industry, primarily in the aero-space, defense and pharmaceutical industries, with 16 of those years running my own commercial shop. I also moderate a forum that is machine shop related. I make mention of this because I fully understand the degree of frustration you must feel when you read many of the posts on this forum. Here, just as on the forum of which I speak, there are readers that don't have a clue, therefore they must have the simplest things explained to them in terms they can understand. That's the price we must pay if we wish to share that which we know with those that have a desire to learn. It's a price well worth paying when you see the results some of these guys achieve.
Again, thank you for your kind response.
Harold
Freechemist,
From the standpoint of a chemist, you are absolutely correct in stating to be successful in the precious metal refining business you need the sound knowledge of chemistry. I completely agree, and the companies that will hire people who have a grasp on the chemistry, as you obviously do, are held to a higher standard. They are being shipped samples that have been thoroughly analyzed and in most cases also have been witnessed to produce umpire samples to settle any disputes. These prime refiners also are in competition with each other for market share and work very close to their margins. In short there is no room for error. In that scenario a sound chemical background is imperative.
Then there is an entire other world where the materials shipped to the refiners I have described above are generated. The so called collectors of the refining world. These are the people who I am talking about when I talk about professionals who keep their background a secret. I have met and worked with these collectors over the years and while some are talented chemists, others opened up a business after working for another refiner for a year or so and have succeeded. This level of the business rarely requires the level of sophistication of a prime refiner as the people sending their materials in often do not know what it is really worth. In short there is room for profit at this level. This is the so called grey area which GSP has named it. For them, mixing up aqua regia at 3:1 or 4:1 is perfectly fine, they routinely go on outside assays without ever setting up in house, they operate in a world where close enough is profitable.
As you well know the refining world is full of secrets, this forum is unique in that we openly discuss these secrets. If you and I were to have an open discussion about a process it would sound very different than an open forum discussion where the participants are refining in everything from buckets to coffee pots. Here everyone gets a place at the table.
As I stated earlier, I would love to have a more open participation by refiners operating on a large scale, but those discussions will be monitored and participated in by those operating on a small scale, and that is also a value in its own light. If you stay on this forum, and I would hope you will, you will find there is more here than noticed at first glance. The refining industry encompasses a huge array of materials and processes, I will be the first to admit I have learned quite a bit here on the forum from the input of those who see things a bit different than I do.
From the standpoint of a chemist, you are absolutely correct in stating to be successful in the precious metal refining business you need the sound knowledge of chemistry. I completely agree, and the companies that will hire people who have a grasp on the chemistry, as you obviously do, are held to a higher standard. They are being shipped samples that have been thoroughly analyzed and in most cases also have been witnessed to produce umpire samples to settle any disputes. These prime refiners also are in competition with each other for market share and work very close to their margins. In short there is no room for error. In that scenario a sound chemical background is imperative.
Then there is an entire other world where the materials shipped to the refiners I have described above are generated. The so called collectors of the refining world. These are the people who I am talking about when I talk about professionals who keep their background a secret. I have met and worked with these collectors over the years and while some are talented chemists, others opened up a business after working for another refiner for a year or so and have succeeded. This level of the business rarely requires the level of sophistication of a prime refiner as the people sending their materials in often do not know what it is really worth. In short there is room for profit at this level. This is the so called grey area which GSP has named it. For them, mixing up aqua regia at 3:1 or 4:1 is perfectly fine, they routinely go on outside assays without ever setting up in house, they operate in a world where close enough is profitable.
As you well know the refining world is full of secrets, this forum is unique in that we openly discuss these secrets. If you and I were to have an open discussion about a process it would sound very different than an open forum discussion where the participants are refining in everything from buckets to coffee pots. Here everyone gets a place at the table.
As I stated earlier, I would love to have a more open participation by refiners operating on a large scale, but those discussions will be monitored and participated in by those operating on a small scale, and that is also a value in its own light. If you stay on this forum, and I would hope you will, you will find there is more here than noticed at first glance. The refining industry encompasses a huge array of materials and processes, I will be the first to admit I have learned quite a bit here on the forum from the input of those who see things a bit different than I do.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
In my country there is a saying that goes something like this: "There are some people that have a lot of university and too little of whorehouse, others have a little university and a lot of whorehouse, and yet others that have a lot of university and a lot of whorehouse".
IMO in today's world having whorehouse experience is more important than a lot of university, but welcome to the forum as I believe I can do better in both departments!. :lol:
IMO in today's world having whorehouse experience is more important than a lot of university, but welcome to the forum as I believe I can do better in both departments!. :lol:
goldenchild
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2009
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- 1,810
whorehouse?
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Slang/euphemistic for "worldly experience". 
I didn't invent it, but you wouldn't believe how much of the gold mining world in south america revolves around bars and whorehouses. :shock:
I didn't invent it, but you wouldn't believe how much of the gold mining world in south america revolves around bars and whorehouses. :shock:
qst42know
Well-known member
So there are precious metals in boob glitter? :lol: :mrgreen:
Those are the molar values for concentrated HCl and HNO3. You can find them listed in standard tables, or you can calculate them yourself from the density of the acids.zachy said:
Dave
FrugalRefiner said:
Dave was not able to thank you very much, but finding tables with those values, and densities of these two acids are very far from those values for HCl is 1.165 g / cm3 and the HNO3 is 1.4 g / cm3, or operation it is done with the density will be with the number of Avogadro? or other equation.
I did the same proportion to refine platinum (Pt), and gives me a ratio of 5/1, but I'm not sure those two values, not on where they were taken, using the reaction.
3Pt + 4HNO3 + 12HCl ==== 3PtCl4 + 8H20 +4NO
It's been a while since I've calculated acid molarity, so I googled "calculate molarity from density". The first result, Calculations involving density, percent concentration, molality, has some good examples. Problem #2 calculates the molarity of 37.7% HCl.
Hope that helps.
Dave
Note that the density and concentration are higher than the example lazersteve used.
Hope that helps.
Dave
Thank you Dave,
And I remembered, while not doing that, I forgot, it's very easy, as did all the calculations for platinum, but this refining if it is a little more complex, I'm working him 150 grams of alluvial Pt, if someone It is a good method to do or a guide will show you the results soon.
a hug
And I remembered, while not doing that, I forgot, it's very easy, as did all the calculations for platinum, but this refining if it is a little more complex, I'm working him 150 grams of alluvial Pt, if someone It is a good method to do or a guide will show you the results soon.
a hug
zachy, please be very careful! Refining platinum is very dangerous. When you dissolve platinum, you create very toxic platinum salts . We've had at least a couple of members develop serious illness and have to abandon ever dealing with it again.
My advice would be to send it off to a refinery that's equipped to deal with it.
Dave
My advice would be to send it off to a refinery that's equipped to deal with it.
Dave
thank you very much for your advice Dave, I'm taking all appropriate action, I do everything in a fume hood with escrubber, wear gloves and respirators for acids, I'm way ahead with the process. that diseases given to friends? but they are still alive? or given a temporary allergy?
