Asking questions

[squarecoinman]

When asking a question please remember the following :

Do not use foul language
try to be so precise as possible
always use search before asking a question, 99.9 of all questions have been answered before.
Explain why you could not find the answer in Hoke´s book. ( I am in a hurry and will read hoke later is not a good answer)

write the correct amounts and strength:
This means that if you start with 4 fingers write that you start with 4 fingers. Do not write i put a batch of gold fingers in AP
be clear about how much you use of material. I put my 4 fingers in 7 gallons of HCL 31 % and put in 1 gallon of 10 % peroxide
I then waited some time ( Some time is unclear ) : I then waited 2 weeks.
I filtered the gold, and added a lot of SMB but there is no gold.

Most members will laugh by now, as it is clear that one will not see 4 fingers of gold in 8 gallons of liquid. And it would be unwise to use 10 % peroxide in strength.
but to many people will ask unclear questions.

state why you are doing what you are doing :
I have seen a youtube video and have 3 cell phones and want to get rich quick
I have 40 morgans dollars and want to get the silver out, so I can buy a house
I am a chemistry teacher and etc etc.

Use spelling control before you post.
spelling mistakes are not user friendly, it also shows disrespect for the readers if you can not be bothered to correct your spelling. Furthermore it can be dangerous, we work with chemicals and a small spelling mistake can change a lot : sodium metabisulfite ; sodium sulfate. / Muriatic acid ; mutated acid.

Safety is a very important thing on the forum.
Not only your safety but also of the people around you. If you do not respect that, your question will not be answered or you will get lots of answers about safety.
" I made some AR and i think there is a problem as some flower may have gotten in to it as my wife was making pizza next to me "

Words that are difficult to work with.
I THINK there is gold in it,
SOME acid, a LITTLE, A HAND FULL, I KNOW ( you only know if you did test )
please do not use these words


squarecoinman

 

[Shaul]

Squarecoinman;

Great suggestions. But like the story of: 'Who Will Bell the Cat?' the problem is, how do you get them to listen?

Patnor recently wrote:
" My opinion was stated by some other members few days back. We absolutely need to restrict new members to one section of forum where they can post whatever they like. It may be or maybe not get answered. We simply cant go like this when all parts of forum get spammed to death by threads from people who could not care less to search for answer and just fire volley of questions expecting others to solve whatever issue they have.
If you do not believe that restriction is required feel free to guide all new members answering their posts about platinum in hard drive, incinerating or nuking everything in AR and perhaps tell them that cyanide is good just that they do it when it is windy outside or at least that they have their window opened. "

Perhaps, that's a solution. It would at least let newbies know that YES they need to do all the things you've suggested above, but NO they're not going to get their questions immediately answered. Just the act of telling someone to put away the chemicals, read for 6 months and then to ask their questions again, will separate the wheat from the chaff. The serious ones will understand the wisdom of it and the others will fall away.


Shaul

 

[solar_plasma]

6 months

but you can't say "read for 6 month" to some chemists or professional skilled miners and refiners :shock:

My two cent: New members could write who they are and what they want and thereafter first have to be confirmed by the admins and mods, before they can write to the forum. I don't know, if I would be confirmed, but I would not have anything against such a procedure also on newly added members like me:

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.

[Immanuel Kant]

 

[steyr223]

You guys are doing all this
Work because of me
I only ask a question once and when
Someone does the search for me
They post a link which i never have time
To click on.
But sometimes you guys do like a
10-15 page post explained everything I
need to know about what I asked
Which is a waste of time because i only
Read 1~2 pages of it.
O yea what is a spell checker.
I have the right to your knowledge without
Jumping through hoops.

I mean that's what you guys do right
You sit around and use all your time up to
teach people like me that's what you're
here for right ,i mean none of you have wives
Or children and you dont have jobs
Yeah you guys are all probably a bunch of old
Geezers trying to keep all the gold
to yourselfs thats why you won't answer my question

.
far as safety goes , heck i always wear
my cotton gloves while working with acids
And my sun glasses and headphones.
For eye and ear protection
And just to be extra careful. When i do a nitric
Reaction i do it next to the fridge just in
case it gets out of hand i have some place to
put it
I learned that one from here. 'Honey were is
That roast" : ?
I dump my chemicals in the riverbed which
I know for a fact it goes straight to the
ocean so we don't have to worry about
those chemicals
On a serious note this post was to show some
Ridiculous subjects and questions that happen
Here over and over and over again

!!!!!!! Do not. Attempt to do or repeat
any part of this post it was
Not intended for educationsl
Nitric does not go in the fridge
No cotton glovrs when.
Working wirh. Acids.
!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks steyr223

 

[Shaul]

Solar_plasma;

I wasn't referring to 'Chemists and Professional Refiners' and I don't think Patnor was either, but even professionals need to curb their language and go by the rules. I agree that some kind of confirmation would definitely be a good idea. Also, you know how when you download a program, you have the 'End User License Agreement (EULA) ' and you have to click 'I Accept' before it will install. Well maybe something similar with the Forum Rules and Regulations (along with Harold's warnings as to what happens if you break them), and you need to click 'I Accept' before you can get in. That way no one can say 'I didn't know'.


Shaul

 

[MEANIE]

GRF seemed to be working pretty good for the last 6 or so years..
The way it is. At least IMHO

 

[solar_plasma]

and you need to click 'I Accept' before you can get in

sounds good to me

Just wanna add, I don't feel disturbed too much by some newb noise. The damage is already done, that's why it's much work to find good threads about special questions. I don't care.

 

[Pantherlikher]

Lots of ideas and possibilities but someone has to take the time to sift through the ok you can go ahead people and those that don't. This would mean someone willing to read everything and at least try to help before desiding.

I surely wouldn't want to Pay... someone to sit and do that. Would you do it for free?.

Even to have someone go through everything and start another forum for newbies. Giving them all the right information to get started. And then deside who gets privileged access.

B.S.
What to do, What to do...

 

[solar_plasma]

Where do noise start to be noise, where is the line? Also this thread, and my posts are part of this thread, is noise without much information. We can go on with ideas (I like the rating idea and would appreciate a combination with an automatic clean up procedure) but I don't believe this is very helpfull. It's up to the mods and admins. If they wish something to change, I guess, they will do it. If they need help, they will ask the members.

 

[Geo]

just read through some of the very early post and you will find the same types of questions and answers.the only thing that changes is the names and dates.Noxx wanted a forum that was free and accessible to everyone with an interest in refining.by restricting the members or visitors from posting or asking questions goes against those ideals.when i first came here,i ask the same tired questions as everyone else does and was thankful for the opportunity.i couldnt wait to acquire enough knowledge to be able to help answer questions when i could.i am so grateful to be part of the forum and the way it works now suits me just fine.i pick and choose what topics i reply to and in return am not offended if i post and do not get a reply to my questions.just being here is a privilege and i feel i am owed nothing but rather me that owes the forum and at any rate,if i have to wade through a river of post to find what im looking for at least it is free and i have time to search.to search hard for the answer to a problem makes it less likely to be forgotten.

 

[galenrog]

I trust the site owner, administrators, moderators, etc to keep the forum relatively free of problems, including myself, if necessary. While I have not posted often, I am here most days learning from the experience of others so I do not make injurious or deadly mistakes.

 

[patnor1011]

@ MEANIE
Yeah, it works fine. If you were here active for those last 6 years you will understand my point.
People grow tired of repeating questions which were answered 100 times. While it was 10 questions a week few years back now it is 20 every day. All of them the same.

@ GEO
It is questionable to discuss of what Noxx wanted. I can reply that yes he wanted free and not restricted access for everyone. And it is free and accessible. I talk about people who spam this forum. No matter how many times we tell them that one post is enough there will always be few new people with pressing issue who with no reply after 5 minutes will double or triple post the same question to 3 different places. I talk about normal widely accepted thing. There are thousands places and instances where you are not entitled to do what you will just because you joined.
What I suggested is not to stop them from asking questions, I suggested to have all their questions in one place and not spread thru whole forum. Simple.

 

[MEANIE]

If one is tired of teaching or helping someone seek the knowledge they want. Then why not move on and let someone that is willing to. .

 

[AndyWilliams]

If one is tired of teaching or helping someone seek the knowledge they want. Then why not move on and let someone that is willing to. .

That thought has some merit. But I can't agree with it. Here's why.

One of the more educational threads for me was the argument between GSP and Harold way back when. Two refiners who both achieved the results they desired, but with two distinct approaches. I didn't ask a question, I was not even a member back then, yet I learned a great deal through their argument.

There are a great deal of new members, daily. Of those new members some take the advice given seriously. They read, they search, and when they can't find, they ask, and they do so as safely as they've learned. Others just ask, because that is how they have been trained to act on the rest of the internet. I believe this site is different because of its measured approach to refining and recovery. Read the primer (Hoke) to have a great introduction to the subject of this forum, learn the language, search for the answers. If unsuccessful, ask. In essence, the above comment is catering to the newbie and reinforcing the behavior that there isn't a need to be measured in his approach to the subject. Of course the advice given is likely to include all of the safety warnings, but does the newbie really need to stop and pay attention? He has just joined a site, shown no proficiencies or understandings, and has been given his answer with some other blah, blah, blah. He needs to be arrested by anyone giving advice. I guarantee if someone is here and doesn't have time to search to find the answer, if it exists, they don't have time to worry about their safety, and certainly not their neighbors.

I believe that anyone providing answers, until aware otherwise, should assume the newbie is just that, a newbie to refining and recovery. That the person doesn't have the safety awareness necessary to meet this site's high standard. Researching safety equipment on this site introduced me to actual members who have had horrific happenings. It scared the hell out of me and slowed me down. I came to this forum believing that a filtration mask would protect me. Thank goodness I didn't have, or use, nitric, or anything remotely close, until after I had read those stories.

This site isn't here to cater to the newbie's way of learning, it's here to instruct folks on the proper methods of achieving their desire results. We should create an expectation in the newbies that they will have to, at a minimum, search for an answer before it's spoon fed to them.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

If one is tired of teaching or helping someone seek the knowledge they want. Then why not move on and let someone that is willing to. .

The problem I see with that is that we will lose the hard won knowledge of those who have spent years in developing their expertise. Soon, we will have nothing but relative newbs like myself teaching the next generation of newbs.

There needs to be a balance. If it becomes nothing but a chore for the veterans to read through endless repetitions of the same old questions, they will disengage from the forum. It seems to me that has been happening for a while now. When the forum was young the experienced professionals enjoyed the time they spent here and were rewarded by seeing the new members succeed. There were, of course, a few who would not listen to the advice they were given, and most of them moved on. Others like Geo, Pat, and many others took their time, studied and learned. Many have become the current "veterans" who have, themselves, spent countless hours answering the questions. I've done my best to help out where I can. But I have to admit that even I have tired of trying to help many of the newest members. I enjoy teaching and sharing what I've learned. But when I devote time trying to provide some guidance, only to have it ignored because it isn't what the member wants to hear, it takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the endeavor.

I don't know what the answer is, but I hate losing the experience of Harold, GSP, 4metals, Oz, Pat and many others. If the truly experienced continue to drift away, I fear the forum will become a discussion between members who have won their experience from youtube.

Dave

 

[patnor1011]

If one is tired of teaching or helping someone seek the knowledge they want. Then why not move on and let someone that is willing to. .

Exactly this.
I would gladly offer my help to someone who is willing to learn and I did it hundred times. Mainly with things I did, and understand. I never claimed that I know it all.
My process I developed was given here for free and was downloaded thousands of times. Sadly I encounter like one in ten who really want to learn. Those nine want to be schooled, guided, in other words they want you to put it right in their head. They want easy fix of their problems, step by step tutorials without any need of understanding what they do. They will argue with you because they know better, they demand and expect. That is what makes not only me tired.

No, and again - most of them do not seek knowledge they want. They seek easy fix to their problem or dreams.

 

[JHS]

I am a co-founder of a 15 year old cancer support group.when people come to this group they are despirate.
Desperate to save the life of a loved one.They need to be directed to the right place.weather it is medical or financial,or maby they just need a kind word or two.The reason they come makes no differance.We answer every question put to us.
We hope we make just a little differance in there lives.We hope that some day there will not be a need for this group,but until the world counts every person as a person,the poor will die when they may have lived.It takes a lot of effort to keep up with all that are in need.Some of the members are some of the first ones that came to the group for help.some of them lost that loved one,and we felt there pain.we wished there was more we could have done.I myself lost my mother,grandmother,and sister to cancer.
You can not know the motives of a person that comes here and asks the,as it is put,same old stupid question.Perhaps they have a loved one that they are trying to help.Perhaps they are looking for that pot of gold.Maby they are trying to save there home,so their children will not be on the street,
When i came here,it was after a year of research on the net.my mistake was a stupid one.i ordered bisulfate,instead of bisulfite,and i knew better.I never saw hoke mensioned before i found this forum.when it was,i shut up and read,and read some more.I have not asked a question since the first one.
I have been refining silver for 20 years,not a lot,just what i need for my own use.i thought i was ready to refine some e scrap,and if i did not ask the question,my stupid mistake would not have been pointed out.
You never know what a person's motives are,so it is hard to decide if a person is worthy of being treated as a person.
If you do not want to put the effort forth to help another person,then count them as poor and let them die.
I personaly can not do that.

 

[Pantherlikher]

Well stated JHS.

I'm thinking this thread is more like a crying and moaning party because there is so many newbies.
Most see the youtube easy ways and dive in without learning enough and get into trouble or see it as easy as pie. For what ever reason comming here, they are here and asking the same old question. When the answer is not what they learned from said video, they think, well that looked easy enough. Why are you giving me a hard time spoon feeding me the process? Are you trying to keep it a secret? I WANT IT NOW!

I have time to mostly buzz through new posts and see all the same questions and I give what advice I've learned and read and see if there is a reply. Usually not from the original poster but from others here adding what they have learned and think. That's where it seems the threads get long and drawn out. By everyone adding thier 2 cents.

It'd be helpfull if we had a generic answer to the newbie questions so we don't keep adding. Stop, make it safe, and learn. Here is where to start...

If it is free for everyone to learn the right way, then we need to handle everyone comming in the same way and hope.
It's all we can do.

B.S.
Sometimes the beaten horse isn't dead...

 

[Claudie]

This is not a support group for people. Answering questions and helping others is what most of like to do here, it helps us learn too. I think the problem arises when, after being given the best answer, people ignore it and do what they think is easier or better, then come back wanting to know how to fix a mess that most of us know is a dangerous situation, and then, again, still don't listen to the best answer but pursue yet another route that is equally wrong. They will come yet again wanting more advice that they will not follow, I think this is when it gets annoying. It is not helping people that want to learn that is the problem, it is trying to help someone who asks for help but then refuses to listen.

 

[JHS]

Thank You.
did you know that if you search
smb you get almost 3000 hits
nitric gold almost 6000 hits
if someone is new and they are asking the same old questions,even if they try to search it it would take forever to sift through all the information on the forum.
hoke is a great place for them to go.
the safety section is the best first step.
by suggesting that you just may save a life.
but if people do not want to bother
they just might die.
john