Eco-goldex CYANIDE Leach

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Both ferro and ferri cyanide complexes will decompose to give free cyanide in the presence of UV light.

The ferri cyanide complexes need a stronger level of UV to initiate the reaction.

These reactions are reversible in the absence of UV provided all of the original components are still present.

Boiling a cyanide solution to lessen the volume is seriously not a good idea.

Cyanide leaching is usually carried out in steel vessels on a cost basis, plastic can be used but is usually more expensive, especially if outlets are being fitted. Steel welding is cheaper than plastic welding.


Deano
 
hello,

to ask again: i can use ferrocyanide like cyanides, as discribed by GSP in his cyanide-article at the GRF-WIKI?

i can use ferro in concentrations similar to cyanide-concentrations, with "hot" tap water, an oxidiser like H2O2 and regular stirring (or, as an alternative, mixing by aeration and no H2O2).

the "degolding" of the bearing sollution is known: by zinc (Al etc. as an altern.), activated carbon, ion-ex.-resin!

and i ask again: why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method, why i can't find anything about it here and why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?

best regards, frank!
 
frank-20011 said:
and i ask again: why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method, why i can't find anything about it here and why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?

best regards, frank!
Frank, I'll let someone with experience with cyanide answer the first part of your question about the process, but I'll try to answer the last part.

"why doesn't anybody use this simple and safe seeming method" While the method may seem safe, and done with due care, it can be, it is also potentially very hazardous. Despite all the warnings and safety advice we provide, far too many new members read a few posts, then jump into a process before they really understand it. If you make a mistake with AP, you may make a mess. If you make a mistake with nitric acid, AR, sulfuric acid, etc., you may seriously injure yourself or others, possibly requiring medical care. If you make a mistake with cyanide, you're likely to die. The key words in what you said are "safe seeming". It seems safe until something goes wrong.

"why i can't find anything about it here" Until recently, those with experience with cyanide have been reluctant to share advice on how to use it because of the danger I mentioned above. No one here wants to be responsible for anyone hurting, much less killing, themselves or others. Cyanide, in the form of sodium or potassium cyanide, is fairly restricted in most places, so any discussion of it would not have benefited most members. Ferrocyanide is kind of a "workaround" to the restrictions on cyanide, as it is more available.

"why i have to ask in a thread about goldex about this method instead in some "Ferrocyanide-leaching-thread"?" Eco-goldex is a new product that is advertised as an ecologically safe product. Some of our members have purchased the product, started using it, and have posted their experience here on the forum. It has, in effect, let the Genie out of the bottle. It is readily available to anyone, so we are faced with a Hobbesian choice. If we discuss the use of cyanide, the members who scan a few posts then jump into a process with both feet may kill themselves. If we don't discuss the use of cyanide, some members may try this "new" workaround method and kill themselves because we haven't provided safe advice.

That's why you're seeing the current discussions. I would urge anyone interested in this process to wait until this subject is more fully discussed on the forum.

Dave
 
Yes you can use ferrocyanide in the same manner as you would use straight cyanide.

No, it is not a safe method, all of the hazards of straight cyanide are still present.

The two areas where it is safer than straight cyanide are in transport and storage, note that this uses the term "safer", it does not use the term safe.

As per straight cyanide there is always the danger of HCN gas, especially if protective alkalinity is not maintained.

This is why cyanide leaches in industry are run at pH 11 or greater, apart from being more efficient it is safer.

These leaches are run either outdoors as per mining use or indoors with redundant (at least doubly) automatic failsafe systems for extraction of gases.

Ion exchange, activated carbon and direct electrowin methods of recovery of gold from these leaches will operate efficiently even if oxidants other than air are used.

Zincing will work OK provided only air is used as the oxidant. There will be some re-dissolution losses but if the solution is being reused then the actual gold loss is zero.

If oxidants apart from air are used then these must be removed or exhausted before zincing is effective.

Deano
 
frank-20011 said:
hello,

to ask again: i can use ferrocyanide like cyanides, as discribed by GSP in his cyanide-article at the GRF-WIKI?
Which article? can you give us a link?

Göran
 
hello,

sorry, it's a site which is linked from the GRF WIKI:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24567

"I prefer a steel mixer because it's easier to cover the opening. When tumbling, drops of the solution will occasionally fly out. To prevent this, I use 4 magnets, one on each corner, to hold a sheet of thin flexible plastic over the opening. I use 2 of the very strong neodymium magnets (from hard drives) and 2 weaker horseshoe Alnico magnets. When I want to open the mixer, I stop it so the neodymium magnets are at the top, remove the 2 Alnico magnets, and then fold the plastic up over the top, leaving the 2 neodymium magnets in place securing the plastic. This is much easier to do than to explain.

Using this process, I have stripped 6 drums of material in an 8 hour day, by myself.

(1) Add 1.5 to 2 gallons of hot (about 50-60C) tap water to mixer.
(2) Add parts to be stripped. You can strip quite a lot at one time - say, 5-10 kilos, or even more, depending on how bulky the parts are. The pile of parts added can stick up out of the water - everything will get wet as you tumble it. You'll have to experiment with the amount of parts you can run at one time.
(3) Add about 100-200g of Sodium Cyanide (NaCN) and tumble until dissolved - about 1 minute.
(4) Add about 50ml of the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Cover the mixer opening and tumble. The H2O2 will heat the solution even more due to its reaction with the cyanide.
(5) After about 2 minutes, stop the mixer when the strong magnets are on top, remove the lower weak magnets. and fold the plastic over the top. With plastic gloves on, lift a handful of parts, wash with a little water from a squirt bottle, and see if they are stripped. If you see white nickel and/or uniform pink copper color on all the parts, the stripping is complete. If there is still yellow gold present or if you see a black smut (gold that's dissolved and cemented back onto the copper) on the parts, add about 50g of NaCN + about 20ml H2O2, and run for about 3 more minutes. Repeat. If, after doing this a total of 3 times, there is still gold or smut present (very rare - maybe 1 out of 25 batches), start with a fresh solution on the same parts.

Note: Essentially all gold plating on electronic material has a layer of nickel plating under the gold. If the nickel is thick (or, if the base metal is magnetic towards a weak magnet), the stripping will likely be finished in 1 to 2 minutes. If the Ni is very thin, the abrasion caused be the tumbling can remove it and expose the copper. In that case, there is a battle between the gold wanting to dissolve and the dissolved gold wanting to cement back onto the copper. When copper is exposed, the stripping will go slower.

(6) When the parts are stripped, carefully tilt the mixer and collect the solution in a 5 gallon plastic bucket without pouring off any parts. Put 2 gal of clean water in the mixer, tumble for a minute or so to rinse the parts. The same rinse water can be used for 3 or 4 batches.

When finished, transfer all solutions and rinses into a suitable sized plastic container - 5 gal bucket, open top 55 gal drum, etc. Place the container high enough so you can siphon all of it imto another container. While dropping the gold, stirring is quite important. A prop type electric stirrer is nice, but the same results can be achieved with a homemade "plunger" stirrer. To tell how much zinc to use, you must be able to see the color of the gold/zinc powder. This requires a lifting motion while stirring the solution. A 5" dia. plastic disk mounted of the end of a plastic pipe will work great, with an up and down stroke. Go slow on the upstroke or you'll slosh the solution on you.

Precipitating the gold:
(1) Weigh out about 2g of 325 mesh "zinc dust" for each gram of expected gold. This is only an approximation - it may take more or less. Note that the zinc will also drop any silver or copper that has dissolved. Before adding, you must break up any zinc clumps that have formed. I do this by putting the zinc through a fine kitchen sieve.
(2) While stirring, add about half of the the weighed, de-clumped zinc. Stir for a minute or two. As you lift up the powder, look at the color. At first, the powder will be brown (mostly gold and/or copper). As you add more zinc, the color will become a uniform light gray color. This happens when all the gold and copper have precipitated and there is an excess of undissolved gray colored zinc. This is what you want to see. At that point, stop adding zinc and stir for 5-10 more minutes.
(3) Obtain a couple of 5 pound (or, so) zinc bars, drill a hole near the top, and hang them in the solution using some insulated house wire. Let the solution settle overnight. The purpose of the zinc bars is to prevent any gold re-dissolving.
(4) Siphon off the solution into a like sized container without disturbing any of the settled solids.
(5) Filter the solids and rinse them 4 or 5 times with hot water.
(6) Transfer the solids and the filter paper to an adequate leaching vessel (I use a 5 gal bucket). UNDER A FUME HOOD, cover the solids and paper with water. Add very small increments of nitric acid, stirring slowly in between additions. When an addition of nitric produces NO reaction, stop adding nitric.
(7) Filter, rinse well, dissolve in aqua regia, precipitate pure gold with SMB, filter, rinse well, dry, and melt.
Note: When dissolving the Au powder in aqua regia.
(1) Transfer filtered gold and paper to a large beaker.
(2) Cover with HCl. Heat to about 60C under a fume hood.
(3) Add a few ml of nitric. There should be an immediate reaction. When the reaction subsides, give it a short stir and add another small amount of nitric. Repeat until a small addition produces NO reaction. Stop adding nitric."

As you can raed, he use ~25g/l H2O and this is much more than the 0,x%-1% which are recorded in other documents.
but as you can read, he works with short deplating times, brought about the higher CN concentrations?!

yesterday evening at 23:00 i dissolve 50mg K₄[Fe(CN)₆]and 80mg of NaOH in 50ml tap water in a glass beaker, place it on a window, behind the 3 glass sheets.
i put ~10 different pins from mother boards in the liquid, thin plating! and today at 12:00 the plating was still unaffected!

best regards!
 
Did you check the ph? Do you even have a way to check ph?
Seems to me 80mg of sodium hydroxide in 50ml of water would be way too basic, and that is why nothing is happening.

If I did not understand ph or how to control it, I surely would not be messing around with cyanide.
Or any of it's compounds.
 
The higher the pH the less effective the CN leach becomes. 11 is the sweet spot for safety and leach rate.

Edit - with a high concentration of NaOH in there you also have competition between the cyanide and sodium hydroxide which adversely affects the leach. Dean did explain the exact chemistry involved and in this case I forgot to note it but I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks. The principle remains the same though- don't use loads of NaOH as Platdigger mentioned. Another point he made extremely well is that if you can't read a pH then go buy reasonably priced pH meter and don't do any more until you have.
 
Most common glass is to some degree opaque to UV light waves.

How much is blocked depends on the type of glass.

If the glass is a blocker then it will usually block a percentage of the UV, put several sheets in the UV path and you will block practically all of the UV.

No UV, no reaction, no leaching.

Deano
 
hello,

my windows are made of a combined system, 3 sheets of glass and the beaker is the 4th!

i don't know if the little UV-share which is emitted by energy safing or flourescent lamps is enough for a ferro/ferri gold leaching?

stupidly my pH Paper only reaches untill 11 and it shows 11 with my sollution and stupidly i know about the addiction of efficiency of cyanide leaching but in my test i don't waste any thought on it and put NaOH in the sollution by instinct-stupid!

(i will check my ph-drop-test for it's applicability in these case or will buy a better test!)

and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
so what is the catch???

best regards, frank!
 
frank-20011 said:
and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
so what is the catch???

For many years discussing any of the cyanide leaches has been actively discouraged. The presentation of the eco-goldex thread has in many ways opened the door to discussion because of the lack of disclosure that this is in fact a true cyanide leach wrapped in another package. It has all the dangers of cyanide (as has been mentioned plenty of times on this thread and others) but since it is able to be transported and stored and bought with no restriction I gather it was felt that people should be in possession of ALL the facts pertaining to it.

It's neither easy nor simple to get it right and it has been pointed out, recovering all the gold from the solution is the hard bit.
 
hello,

"recovering all the gold from the solution is the hard bit."

at first i should be proud if i can use it for leaching....after the leaching i make me worries about the recovering.

regards!
 
frank-20011 said:
and i will ask again and again :wink: if ferro/ferri leaching is so easy, so non-toxic, so cheap and so easy available, why didn't anybody use it for leaching, why i can't find anything in the forum?
so what is the catch???
I believe your question has already been answered, but this thread is fairly messy now that we have the original eco-goldex discussion, plus the "should we discuss cyanide?" question and now helping you with your process.

So let me make it clear why you can't find anything: Because it is NOT so easy, and it is NOT so non-toxic.
 
Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.
 
At what point will a moderator step in and close this thread?????
Or are we waiting until someone gets hurt messing with something they absolutely don't understand?
 
Aristo said:
At what point will a moderator step in and close this thread?????
Or are we waiting until someone gets hurt messing with something they absolutely don't understand?
My first thought was to respond with my own opinion on the matter.

On second thought, though, we should just start a new thread for a discussion of the benefits and hazards of openly discussing cyanide and ferrocyanide systems.

Mods, would you consider splitting this topic to accommodate that, or should we just try to get back on topic?
 
Mcnew32(Ag) said:
Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.

No.

You can't.

I would never do this.

Look Deano already told you in no uncertain terms how this was a bad idea. You don't understand what you are doing otherwise you would not have made that statement. You seem to be selective in what you listen to and this is a very bad thing.

It's posts like this that make Aristo's point.

Jon
 
anachronism said:
Mcnew32(Ag) said:
Just in case you guys were wondering I did evaporate the eco- goldex solution down using a stainless steel pot over a turkey fryer burner. I just heated the solution to just below boiling and let it do it's like for a few hours. There was zero further precipitation and the stainless steel was uneffected by the solution. There were not any additional vapors released during the heating process either. So I can say it is safe to evaporate the solution.

No.

You can't.

I would never do this.

Look Deano already told you in no uncertain terms how this was a bad idea. You don't understand what you are doing otherwise you would not have made that statement. You seem to be selective in what you listen to and this is a very bad thing.

It's posts like this that make Aristo's point.

Jon

anachronism is correct in this statement. If you have used this same area/room for evaporating acidic solutions you have the possability of creating a very DEADLY environment.
 
Let's finally nail this.... Any form of cyanide is a danger and a deadly one, if you do not fully umderstand it and can not be around it safely DO NOT USE IT... It's that simple!

Let's stop been nice and call out the idiots who try using this deadly chemical without the correct knowledge and understanding before we have a death on our hands.
 
Agreed.
Also, I would think that whoever is selling this eco stuff, if they are not fully disclosing that this is truely a cyanide system, could, have or at least should have one, if not several law suits on thier hands.
 

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