electrolysis

[Anonymous]

hello friends ,
I want to learn electrolysis process for gold refining.
is there somebody who tells me this point

 

[bmgold]

I have clicked on this post many times and it seems to have been abandoned. I'll add a few notes on my early experiments of mixing water and electricity. I have tried many things as both electrodes and electrolyte solutions. Saltwater was my most used solution since it was cheap and easily available. The only electrodes I tried that didn't get destroyed real fast was carbon rods salvaged from worn out dry cell batteries. The cathode or negative side could be about anything but the anode or positive side got destroyed unless it was a carbon rod. Actually, the carbon rod would also get destroyed but much slower and produced chlorine gas unlike the other metals tried. I made a bleach solution this way which would bleach cloth but not as fast as real bleach.
I tried dissolving stuff like copper and silver using this homemade bleach with a little HCl added a few drops at a time and it did kind of work. This was long before finding this forum so I was doing this without any real knowledge of what was happening. All I knew was that a few drops of acid would create chlorine fumes so I didn't add much at a time. I now see that I had it wrong and should have probably done it the other way, add a little bleach to the acid. The weak bleach would have probably diluted the acid to much but I almost did it right without any real instructions. The silver was probably turned into silver chloride but it never darkened with light exposure. It stayed a white precipitate so I'm not sure that is even what it was. The copper did dissolve but after a while, probably when the solution was saturated, it crystallized out as, I think, green crystals. This was a long time ago so I might be wrong about the color but it did form small crystals.

Someday I may try some more experiments with electrolysis or get my gold stripping cell finished but for now my job takes most of my time so I just can't play around like I once could. You can have time or you can have money but I've never figured out how to get both at the same time. Maybe if this gold refining thing made me money instead of cost me money but then it probably wouldn't be fun anymore. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Maybe I'm wrong about everything but at least this isn't an empty post anymore.

Another experiment was a homemade fuel cell using baking soda electrolyte and two nickel electrodes made from welding rods (sold for arc welding cast iron). This was supposed to be platinum wire but I didn't want to spend that kind of money for an experiment. Anyway, this cell was hooked up to a battery charger for a few seconds to cover the electrodes with hydrogen and oxygen bubbles and then unhooked and a volt meter was hooked up to the electrodes and a low voltage was still there until the bubbles of gas were gone. No real current but it did demonstrate how a fuel cell works since it used the same electrodes the voltage had to be from the gases on the electrodes and not from the galvonic reaction of the electrodes like copper and zinc in a potato powered clock. I know this was a bit off the gold refining topic but it was an interesting experiment and might work better with platinum or maybe even the cheaper palladium electrodes. I don't have either one to try it and the current is so low that it don't have any real use except as a demonstration.

 

[butcher]

you have brought up a question for me, if the fuel cell requires electricity to seperate the water and hydrogen and then gives back electricity when they recombine back to water, how can this be efficient considering losses? and I would think unless you were using solar or similar power for the process I dont see how it could be profitable.

 

[Platdigger]

Because a fuel cell uses just that....a fuel.

Generally this will be hydrogen. But the hydrogen can be produced onboard from gasoline, alcohol....or some other fuel.

I think there are some types that can use acohol directly also.

It is just that there is a better conversion of the fuel to usable energy with a fuel cell.............

Of course, this is my understanding of them.
Randy

 

[Harold_V]

I dont see how it could be profitable.

Smart man!

The laws of physics dictate that one does not convert energy from one form to another without losses. Anyone that thinks they can use trick devices to get a "free lunch" is ignoring what is known to be true. They will spin their wheels endlessly, and never admit they are wrong. Even educated people get caught up with the notion that there is perpetual motion. It boggles the mind.

Harold

 

[bmgold]

The idea for the fuel cell was from a website. I don't remember which one right now but will try to find it and post a link. The electric input was just to provide an easy way to get the hydrogen and oxygen on the electrodes. I've never tried it but it is supposed to work with no electric input if you have hydrogen and oxygen to bubble on the electrodes. No free energy here, it does use fuel. As I stated this was just a simple demonstration and didn't make enough power to light an LED light or anything but showed on a voltmeter. Maybe a few in series would have done more but I didn't try it.

If real fuel cells catch on maybe it will bring the PGMs prices back up or at least keep them from falling to far. If palladium drops much lower I'm going to have to find a place to buy a little bit just to have or to play with.

Anyone know a good place to get a little bit of pure palladium like a half ounce or ounce coin or bar? The local coin dealer don't carry anything but gold and silver. I found a place online that sold little 1/2 gram rounds but the price was 20 times or so more than spot price. Nice idea and a good way to get a bit for a collection but no chance of ever breaking even as an investment.

 

[jimdoc]

You can try here to see if they have pure palladium;
http://www.preciousmetalswest.com/alabaster950Pd.php

I was going to check with them for some, now that you
can't find it anywhere. For a reasonable price anyway.
Jim

 

[Lou]

How much Pd do you need guys?


Lou

 

[jimdoc]

Lou,
I found some, that is why I didn't get a chance to
check with precious metals west. I will remember
to check with you if I need any more.
Thanks. Jim

 

[Oz]

Jim,

Out of curiosity what form, purity and price.

 

[jimdoc]

Oz,
I found a 1 ounce bar for spot, and added
it to my collection of elements since I sold
all the scrap rings I had awhile back.The
guy needed cash so I got lucky. At the
price its at now you can't really go wrong.
Jim

 

[Oz]

Well that’s sweet! At today’s prices you don’t find many selling PGMs if they can help it, let alone at spot.

 

[bmgold]

I found the link to the fuel cell that gave me the idea. I didn't follow the directions exactly but still got enough results to prove that it would work (to me at least)

http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html

 

[Anonymous]

the idea of fuel cell is to convert fuel to electricity directly, avoiding the loses of friction and waste heat associated with the normal methods.

I have read of fuel cells being 80 percent efficiant, but they can not get them to work on normal gasoline (at least that is what they say).

Compared to normal cumbustion engine at about 30 - 35 percent you can see were the profit would be - double the mileage or more since an electric motor can work without cooling system, transmission, and the motor can be smaller for same HP.

Jim

 

[butcher]

the " fuel" still has to be water or some form of Hydrogen and Oxygen chemical, that must use some form of energy to seperate it, taking either much time or energy in the form of solar, wind, water , wave, neuclear , or some type carbon based fuel to generate the electrical power to seperate hydrogen and oxygen, to me they are not much more than a battery, kind of working on a similar principle, chemical / electrical. maybe a better battery or mouse trap, time will tell. also there are dangers involved with hydrogen and oxygen wanting so bad to go back to being water, but that is the same problem with most of our fuel sources, and could be worked out.

 

[Harvester3]

Hey you all,
I couldn't let this go by.
I recently constructed a fuel generator consisting of a plastic container (clear), sets of stainless plates, each spaced 2.5mm apart, one connected to + the other to -. The container was filled with distilled h2o with a bit of soda. Attached to the closed lid were the + & - electrical connections, and an output tube running to a one way valve and on out a length of hose.
When 12v dc was applied, (drew about 12 amps!) the hydrogen and Oxygen began to separate, each to it's own cathode or diode. in a very short time, there was heavy concentrations of Hydrogen being produced from the output tube. You could grab a palm full and wave it away from the tube and make large fireworks with a match. (if you've never seen Hydrogen burn, that's ok, you really can't see it very well; it burns very quickly and very hot)
So, as far as perpetual motion goes, nope. Will Hydrogen fuel produce more work than it takes to separate it from water? I reckon it does. In the right setting, the amount of energy generated from separating water using 12V@12 amps is over twice what it takes to generate the 12V 12A.
Weird things like this haven't been studied more; The same as why we can't produce efficient solar cells on the cheap... once they're sold, there's no profit in it I guess.
There's my 2 cents anyway.

Oh yeah, as I was going to my office during the experiment, one of my guys decided my one way valve was a hindrance and removed it.
They said later they couldn't see the flame run back up the tube, but they heard it right before it hit the container and blew up.
I just heard the explosion. no worries, but does give pause for thought.
thanks

 

[butcher]

sounds as though you cell produced alot of energy in that explosion.

 

[Harvester3]

Yep. Hydrogen is an awesome fuel IF controlled properly...
Will do a ton of work.

 

[Harold_V]

Will Hydrogen fuel produce more work than it takes to separate it from water? I reckon it does.

I think not. Why would it yield more energy to combine than it took to separate the two originally? That makes no sense, especially considering there are losses any time you convert one substance to another. The losses are due in part to friction and resistance. If I am wrong, and you have evidence to the contrary, please post it, along with the requisite cites.

I'm not scientist, but conservation of energy, the laws of physics, say you're wrong. This kind of nonsense is the reason countless numbers of people spend time on something that is sure to waste their time.

You can not get more out of anything than you put in. Otherwise it would, indeed, be perpetual motion.

Harold

 

[Harvester3]

I understand why perpetual motion isn't possible, as I said. What I did say, and must now admit I have been expecting your comment, is that Hydrogen as a fuel will perform 2x the amount of work as is required to separate Hydrogen from H2O. There's nothing perpetual about it, as one function (splitting Hydrogen away from it's compound) has little in common with the other (burning Hydrogen as a fuel). It's as if by mining Hydrogen, the expense is less than the reaped benefit; If it costs the same to mine gold and platinum, and the ore ran equal in mineral, I'd rather go for the platinum, wouldn't you?
I probably should have kept my mouth shut on this, however I've never been that smart [:~).
I meant no offense, and take none, however, I wonder about all those souls who are wasting their time on projects which yield very little other than the satisfaction of learning.
Thanks
jim