Getting Started.. :-)

[71smithg]

Hey all,
My dad is selling his business and is wanting to get into goldsmithing as a hobby and for recreational purposes. I am helping him get into it but neither of us know much about it at all. Can anyone point us in how to get going? I have done some research on the internet and there seems to be many different ways to do it but we don't know what is the way to go. We are wanting to take it from the gold ore until finished product. We need some advice on the equipment, tools, processes, ect. Anything from what machines are best for the crushing, refining, melting, rolling, furnaces, mold making, any equipment... and tools we need- crucibles, molds, gloves, anything! Any pointers or information that you can give will be appreciated and helpful. He is about completed with his sell and is wanting to be going by summer of 2011. Thanks in advance for your help and time.

Thank you 8)

 

[nickvc]

Welcome to the forum.
What your after is one very big ask....
I would suggest that virtually no one on the forum can help you all the way through and we have some very experienced and knowledgeable members.
To take ore and refine it... There's no one way for all ores it depends on the composition of the ore, if you can sort that out you won't have to do anything else we have scores of members looking for someone to do their ores.
Once you have a gold bar from the ore your going to have to refine it to at least 999 standard to make it usable for jewellery, there are several ways to do this but it will depend on your feedstock,what metals the bars contain.
Once you have good fine gold your then going to have to alloy your metals to the desired karat and colour and if your going to make jewellery to keep things simple I'd suggest you make shot and cast your products using the lost wax method.
This is very vague I know but please try to understand what you want to do is far from easy and very few refineries in the world can do it all and the cost would be enormous...
I don't want to be rude but I would suggest you and your father limit your ambitions and pick one area to start in, get that sorted and then look to see which activity will be the best to research next.

 

[Harold_V]

I don't want to be rude but I would suggest you and your father limit your ambitions and pick one area to start in, get that sorted and then look to see which activity will be the best to research next.

In a sense, I have to agree with Nick.

One thing few consider is that refining and nice tools do not co-exist with one another. The atmosphere of a refinery is somewhat corrosive, thanks to the use of acids. Any tooling that shares the same atmosphere will be subject to rusting, so unless the two can be separated, best by being accomplished in totally different buildings, you can expect to see tools of all kinds degrade.

Harold

 

[71smithg]

Thanks for the feedback. It is much appreciated. What is the recommendation for the best place to start. Input will be appreciated.

Thanks
71smithg

 

[eeTHr]

For the smithing part, I found that there are lots of informative books when I did some silver jewelry making. I also saw lots for gold smithing. Both should include safety precautions and procedures.

Now days, there are probably lots of good sources online, too.

For the refining, you are HERE!

I suggest that you read the safety sections first.

Then read about fume hoods, bought and home-built.

 

[71smithg]

Thank you for your help. I have noticed in reading around that there are alot of people saying to read the Hokes book. I have started reading that. Are there any other books or videos that I should start with?

Thanks

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Thank you for your help. I have noticed in reading around that there are alot of people saying to read the Hokes book. I have started reading that. Are there any other books or videos that I should start with?

Thanks

Yea my suggestion would be to go to Steve's web site and watch his video's and order his DVD's and watch them over and over. And read everything here on the forum you can read. Empty your mind and be ready to absorb some knowledge.

 

[71smithg]

Howdy,
In reading Hokes book there is alot of information on secondary refining... However, I am interested more in processing and refining from ore. Are there any pointers that anyone would have regarding this? What methods are best for that? I will continue reading Hokes book until I am done because I do know that even if you refine from ore at some point you are going to have secondary refining. I have also been reading the forum alot but am not a very fast reader so if anyone could give me more direct threads or information to what I need then it will be appreciated.

Thanks :lol:

 

[jimdoc]

Try the searching the internet archive;

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=refining%20ores

http://www.archive.org/index.php

Jim

 

[Harold_V]

Howdy,
In reading Hokes book there is alot of information on secondary refining... However, I am interested more in processing and refining from ore. Are there any pointers that anyone would have regarding this? What methods are best for that? I will continue reading Hokes book until I am done because I do know that even if you refine from ore at some point you are going to have secondary refining. I have also been reading the forum alot but am not a very fast reader so if anyone could give me more direct threads or information to what I need then it will be appreciated.

Thanks :lol:

Do not equate the processing of recycled metallic scrap with processing from ores. They are not even remotely related, and may be well beyond your capability. For starters, the degree of concentration of an ore may render it useless to the home refiner, yet be perfectly acceptable in industry, where huge volume is customarily handled to produce fractions of an ounce of value. That would place a guy in the position where there's no way any value can be reclaimed at a profit.

It might help you to make mention of what you have at your disposal, and the quality of the ore. If you haven't paid for a professional assay---I suggest you do. Do not spend your time based on what you want to hear instead of what reality may deliver. Do not allow gold fever to control your thoughts.

Harold

 

[nickvc]

I'm going to second what Harold,s said. The reality is that most home refiners just aren't capable of concentrating and recovering values from ores. Read the mining section of the forum and I'm sure you will understand what Harold and I are trying to tell you. A conversation with Rick the Rockman would also be a good eye opener and a lesson on the difficulty of what your intending.
Virtually every member of the forum can refine the concentrated and melted values but getting to that point is a real challenge.
I really do wish you luck but think you really still haven't grasped just how difficult and possibly expensive this idea is.

 

[Oz]

I would agree with the comments above, start off safe and slow unless you have money to burn. If you wish to get into precious metals, start with a business store front that says we buy gold and silver. Start by buying at one price and selling higher (a broker). Once you have enough volume of material, look into refining small portions as a test. If you like refining and do it well it can pay an extra dividend on the scrap you buy, but it is drudgery doing it 40 hours or more a week.

This is a safe and incremental way to get into precious metals while testing your tolerance for the labor verses the profit along the way. As to the complexity of ores, if you are already fluent in refining gold, silver, and platinum group metals with no fail. You have 10X more to learn before you will succeed with ores.

 

[71smithg]

I do agree with what you are saying.
I don't want to be wasting anyones time in asking questions as we get going. I know that you professionals are very helpful and busy. Any of your replies are considered. When we get going then we want to be able to answer questions and be a help to others as you have been to us. As I said in the first post then I am helping my father get this going. It is something that we've wanted to do for years and years but with his business then we haven't had time to research it and go on it. He is selling his business and that's why we are doing this now. We don't want to start another business and aren't doing this to make money. It won't be anything on a large scale but just want to be able to do it as a hobby. We do know that it will be alot of expense.
Harold, I am greatful that you made it clear that scrap and processing from ore is not related. The reason that I was saying that even if you refine from ore at some point then you will have secondary refining is because I was thinking that later on after you had final product from the ore and made something out of it then you would have some scrap pieces that needed refined. Is this where reading Hokes book would come in handy? Or should I not even finish reading it?
Thanks for the suggestion nickvc. I will start reading the mining section.
Oz, we may start with what you are suggesting.

 

[eeTHr]

71smithg---

Briefly, you could look at it this way---

Processing ore is generally referred to as recovery, and getting it pure is refining.

You can sometimes recover several precious metals from ore, all at one time, even tolerating a little contamination. Then refine out each metal individually from that result, as a pure product. The degree of purity depends on how good you are at refining. Sometimes double-refining is best.

If you have an ore that isn't very complex to recover from, you should be able to learn how to do it from ore to jewelry with a normal amount of study and practice, considering that you will be learning three different occupations.

Some ores can be really big problems, and some can be a lot easier. I would say that would be your main concern at this point.

And I should add that some ores are extremely toxic, so you should be sure what you are dealing with and how to safely process it. You could have two piles of ore, from two different deposits, and one pile would process safely and easily, while the other could be very difficult for even an experienced miner, and it could also kill you quickly, just by touching it or breathing the dust from it. There are certain toxins associated with certain gold (and other precious metal) formations. Know what's in your ore.

I think that practically anyone can learn the refining part, if they want to. Especially now days, with this forum available. Know the safety precautions of the chemicals you use, and of the processes you use.

Jewelry making is fairly easy to learn, and it's fun, too. Observe the safety precautions for this, too.

It sounds like you and your dad are aware of the scope of what you want to do, and if that's what you want to do, you will probably succeed.

Above all, have fun.

 

[Harold_V]

Harold, I am greatful that you made it clear that scrap and processing from ore is not related. The reason that I was saying that even if you refine from ore at some point then you will have secondary refining is because I was thinking that later on after you had final product from the ore and made something out of it then you would have some scrap pieces that needed refined. Is this where reading Hokes book would come in handy? Or should I not even finish reading it?

I'm almost sorry I made that statement without clarification. The point I tried to stress is that extracting values from ore is almost never related to refining. An example of that might be the recovery of gold and silver using cyanide. It isn't selective, so if they are both present, you dissolve and recover both. The results still require refining. You can look at it as recovery more than anything, but once recovered, yes, they then are pretty much in lock-step.

By all means, continue reading Hoke, even if you don't end up refining or processing ore. As long as you intend to work with gold in any way, the knowledge you'll gain will be invaluable to you. It's quite important that you understand how gold is alloyed, how it's marked, and how it's tested. You can learn pretty much all of that from Hoke. You'll also gain a tremendous amount of knowledge about the platinum metals, although the chief two you're likely to encounter are platinum and palladium. You will have need to understand recovery procedures, plus how to test. Again, that's in Hoke.

Good luck----but please, don't jump in this thing blind. You'll be dealing with large amounts of money and are likely to encounter those that are skilled at skinning you. Be prepared----do not allow "gold fever" to drive your senses.

Harold

 

[nickvc]

I applaud your quest to learn the all the processes from the source of your metals to the customer wearing your own manufactured jewellery and I hope you understand why most of our comments have seemed negative. It's not that we don't want you and your father not to succeed but that many of us know the enormity of the tasks you have set yourselves.
If you really want to become a skilled jeweller that in it's self is a huge challenge, here in the UK the last apprenticed jewellers are now nearly 50 years of age, these guys can take some stones a piece of wire and some sheet and produce anything you want, some can also set the stones but that is really a different process needing experience, polishing and finishing including plating is another process that takes time to learn to get good results.
If you can both find a selection of the needed skills to produce set and finish jewellery then reading Hoke to learn how to recover and refine your scraps and sweeps would seem the next logical place to try your hand and if you can master these new processes and produce your own fine metals then you will have to learn how to alloy your metals and produce wire and sheet yet another far from easy process to master but with experience and patience possible. That completes the circle from making jewellery to making fresh materials to work with from from your wastes and to me this part is the easiest,but I must admit if it comes to the platinum group metals I tend to leave it to the real experts,read Lou,s posts he's an expert and perhaps you will see what I mean.
Now to the source of your metals,if you really do intend to pursue recovery from ores then to a large extent you will be on your own, as has been pointed out they come in such diverse forms some of which are highly toxic some of which will be relatively easy to concentrate and process to materials so complex that to most members me included that you will be most definitely in virgin territory where trial and error will be your only way forward.
Oz,s comments about starting by buying scrap and refining it to me seems much simpler and in the long run more likely to be a success giving you access to your own refined metals to feed into your jewellery production without all the complexities of trying to recover from ores.
I guess the point I'm trying to get across is pick one area that really interests you and your father and get that down to the stage that you feel confidant to move onto the next area that seems to compliment it. Small steps not a marathon without knowing if you will finish the course because I feel if you take on too much to start your chances of success will be badly reduced.
I know I and all the respondents to your original post wish you well and hope you succeed in your aims.

 

[71smithg]

Thanks guys for the help. We are going forward and trying to learn everything we can. I'm sure we'll have many questions along the way.

For the smithing part, I found that there are lots of informative books when I did some silver jewelry making. I also saw lots for gold smithing. Both should include safety precautions and procedures.

Now days, there are probably lots of good sources online, too.

eeTHr, What books do you recommend?

 

[dtectr]

To play the Devil's Advocate, or simply, the other side of the coin ... and to repeat the previous caveat - "Don't get gold-fever !!!"

We don't know your circumstances - your father may already have made enough of a living to last him, you may have atrust fund or have inherited a fortune 8)

From a marketing point of view, I sense that you & your father have put some thought into this concept & its not without merit.
there is at least one company marketing lines of "custom" jewelry successfully online with "eco/green- gold & blood-free diamonds", & at a significantly higher final cost. Profit percentage, I'm not sure, but ALL handmade/shopcrafted jewelry has a significant mark-up.

The term "Keystone", as in Jewelers' Circular Keystone, leading trade publication, is jeweler-code for double (100%) mark-up;
and "double-" & "triple-keystone" are not uncommon, in fact, the norm in custom shops. If you're the grunt slaving away for $9/hr., its not so great - if you ARE the company, it can be very nice. You'll still need to work 70-80 hrs/wk to get the biz going, & more to learn the crafts (you'll never stop that,
if you're wise), but if you have good business heads, & are willing to hire one or more of the 3 skills needed for successful entrepeneur-ship (sic)
(Manager, Accountant, & Craftsman), it can be done.

In all fairness, some folks here have made very good livings at 2-5% profit, & others may have preferred to start a JOB, not a BUSINESS, which is OK, (I have before) but their experiences can be very different than what you're envisioning.

Just a thought, "from the Earth to your finger", doesn't have to mean hardrock mining (a brutal endeavour for most & dangerous if not highly skilled [Sorry Richard "Rockman"] ). Use of "natural" placer gold would also qualify, if it was honestly marked & described, & properly handled.
1) it wouldn't all have to come from the same source (You could buy it & use it as well as process your own) There's lots of placer gold
dug right in Nevada.
2) If a large enough quantity was collected before refining/processing, you could very well afford to have a professional assay done,
and the end product could be marked & marketed honestly & accurately. ("It's all Native gold(True), dug & processed by hand (You didn't say it was YOUR hand - still TRUE), Eco-friendly (make sure this is TRUE if you say so), ...") You see where I'm going with this.

When it come to sources, the #1 book for any jeweler/precious metal craftsman should be the classic by Murray Bovin (I loaned my 30 year old copy out, so I can't get the full name). It is absolutely, IMHO, the "go-to" resource for almost everything you want to learn. I've known professional jewelers who learned all the basics from that book, its "take it with you to a desert island" good.

To sum up, if you're realistic, willing to work hard, have the resources to follow through despite setbacks, can develop the skill sets needed, this can be an exciting & rewarding 2nd career. There are NO SHORTCUTS, but then, you're not asking for those, just advice & suggestions, right?

Oh yeah - DON"T GET GOLD FEVER !!!

good luck & keep us posted.

 

[71smithg]

To sum up, if you're realistic, willing to work hard, have the resources to follow through despite setbacks, can develop the skill sets needed, this can be an exciting & rewarding 2nd career. There are NO SHORTCUTS, but then, you're not asking for those, just advice & suggestions, right?

good luck & keep us posted.

Yes, correct, we are asking for advice and suggestions.
My father is a real go getter and yes we have put alot of thought into this. We are willing to go for it! Again as I stated in previous posts then he's not wanting to start another business. He's wanting to do it as a hobby and has wanted to do it for many years. It's not just all of the sudden that we just wanted to get gold. :roll: He has the drive and money to do it and wants to be able to process it all the way through, although we may get placer and scrap also, he just wants to be able to do it. Nothing on a large scale.

Also, as stated in a previous post, "I don't want to be wasting anyones time in asking questions as we get going. I know that you professionals are very helpful and busy. Any of your replies are considered. When we get going then we want to be able to answer questions and be a help to others as you have been to us."
We do appreciate all who have been of service to us. Thanks and we'll keep you posted!

 

[71smithg]

I'm just wondering if anyone uses or knows if the equipment for gold produced from Shor International is good stuff, Simplicity gold refining system ect. I have noticed in reading some peoples posts on here that they do not like it. I have heard their name mentioned to me several times but want some advice from others on this forum who have looked into it or use it. I have visited their website multiples of times. http://www.ishor.com