Hcl to dissolve tin

[butcher]

How can I dissolve the lead chloride & stannous chloride from the leaching process?
I got tiny specks of gold mixed with it that I am trying to filter out and recover.

Is this a filtering problem?
Or
Are you talking about salts in solution or the gold mixed with an insoluble powder and scum?
it is hard to help without knowing what you have done or what you are doing or planning to do, or what we have...

without seeing or knowing what all is happening it is difficult to answer some of these questions...

 

[Jmk88]

https://www.assayoffice.co.uk/assets/uploads/Final%20Guidance%20Notes%20Oct%2016.pdf

Not sure what rolled gold you’re getting, but I assure you in London, particularly where I trade, you will not get away with selling rolled gold legally if it has much less than the original 5% weight of gold.

If it is worn you are required to explicitly state it’s wrong.

Why would you use peroxide? What and then cement out your gold? Lol.

Where is the sense? You’d have a mess not dissimilar to failing to remove solder. Peroxide is an oxidiser not a recovery agent.

It can be used to substitute nitrates, nitric or hypochlorite so William, not sure what you’re getting at there but not advisable. Peroxide much above 6% will dissolve your gold too.

 

[Jmk88]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9cLykpdFnc&t=858s

19 grams from 400grams.

Not sure where you guys are doing your maths or the material you think I’m using.

I would say, as before, mine was very conservative (humble) as if you pro rata this example to 4kg of scrap you’ll find my estimations are accurate.

I’m fact, you’ll find they were heavily dropped to enable discussion on the matter.

I think focusing on watch bands is probably irrelevant; I have 12 watches, as you can see the one in the pic doesn’t have bands. It’s set on stainless steel. I have ten like that and one small women’s watch with a band.

The majority are bangles, rings, bracelets and pocket watches. All of which have been vetted and checked in Hatton Garden for condition, stamps and weight.

You may not want to accept someone has the opportunity to obtain and make that sort of money, but it’s a reality.

I encourage more focus on the process I am adopting as opposed to the profitability.

Kindest Regards,

 

[Jmk88]

Most women's watches I have dealt with, when complete, are only about 1/3 of that weight broken down. (Example not exact numbers)...A whole watch that weighed 100 grams, when stripped down to the gold filled averages about 30 grams. Most men's watches have been even worse. There are many watch's out there that do better, but assuming all of yours is better is a serious mistake. I have took in 1000 grams of material and ended up with less than 700 when cleaned and stripped several times, some were even worse than that. Examining your pictures leads me to think also that much of what you see is the dead skin and sweat from the jewelry having been worn a lot, ground into the cracks and crevices and being ate away the same as boiling in hot water would do.

This reminds of the people who dump whole boards into acid and can't figure out where they went wrong.

I advise you to split 100 grams and boil 50 in water for 3 hours. Upon completion, use my hydroxide method on the remaining 50. Maybe then you’ll believe your own eyes. It’s non comparable.

And I assure you it’s not oils, they were removed via incineration and then 3 boiled carbonate washes followed by a third and thorough propane incineration. The lye will not show oils or anything organic as precipitate; it will dissolve a 300 pound human body very quick if the concentrate is high enough. Don’t believe me do your own research. Oils and organic material would not be visible. So please, through order of elimination, what else you think it might be that reacts with hydroxide to break away and form black precipitate?

Copper? Silver? Steel? Or maybe gold? Or do you think it’s that solder stuff?

I’m going to shoot and go with the solder.

Copper will oxidise also but the rate of reaction with 50grams of caustic is so slow that the reaction is barely able to start after an hour, so this isn’t an issue. You can also identify and copper precipitate as it’s distinctly different colour.

 

[butcher]

Several metals or their salts are amphoteric or have amphoteric properties, and will dissolve in an acid or a base, the dark color of the solution is not much of an indication.

In some conditions, even gold and silver and their salts show up with some amphoteric properties.

Jmk88,
it seems like you just want to see things the way you believe them to be, or wish them to be, without considering what others are saying, and then you seem also to be misunderstanding what others are saying...

Something we all do at times, but it is not very helpful.

 

[Jmk88]

On the numbers or the process?

I’m more than open to suggestion, but in a bowl of only gold, copper, stainless and solder, I don’t really see the objective or logical point.

Oils and fats simply won’t show. Copper will be a blue precipitate. Gold will be gold. Stainless won’t react. I’m fact anyone that’s done this will verify you get a minor surface precipitate of copper on the worn sections of your material. Very minor.

I’m more than open. However it needs to be logical and objective, not “you’re wrong because you’re wrong”. I stopped paying attention to that philosophy years ago.

You can’t simply say “you’re wrong”. Which seems to be the over arching conclusion I’m taking. If hcl will do it better, which I’ve tried multiple times, against the advice of who does guide me, please post pics or time frames as to why it’s better. I made a complete mess before which I needed a professional to resolve. The link I’ve attached shows how much jewellery solder there is. It’s not hard to review the rate of tin/lead dissolution which will give you an indication of the unnecessary time you must then add to your process.

My numbers are more than accurate. But I’m really not interested in that side of things.

 

[Jmk88]

The dark is precipitate not a dissolved solution.

The hydroxide does enough to remove it all, I’m not interested in dissolving it all. I don’t need to.

 

[anachronism]

Look I'm reaching out here, so take it as such regardless of what you've said to me already.

You have a number of experienced guys here telling you that:

1. Your calculations are wrong. Yet you tell everyone that they are wrong and you are right.
2. That the solder you have isn't what you think it is, and therefore the lye approach isn't doing what you believe it is. Again everyone is wrong and you are right.
3. That you're not interested in hearing the chemistry. Again the chemistry tells you the best way to do it and you're only just beginning to see that having refused to listen to others.

There's a pattern here. Why don't you step out of that comfort zone and listen. I mean really listen and inwardly digest what you're being given on a plate here. I can't help you with gold filled, but there are some really good guys here offering up their time for nothing to try and get you onto the right path. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Jon

 

[nickvc]

I have never seen very much 18 k gold filled or rolled gold in the UK and I was in the business for over 30 years, the only exception was perhaps the odd large pocket watch case, all the chains and rings etc were 9 k, I have seen plenty of 18 k plated material, which refers to the colour as all plating is high purity.
As gold filled is the cheap alternative to full karat items why would they use 18 k ?

 

[Jmk88]

Jon,

Please do provide the chemistry as to why hcl is better. I will read and read and read. I promise.

So please proceed; what is the expected dissolution rate of solder from jewellery in hcl?

What time frame could you expect this to be completed on 4kg of material?

Please correct my numbers in that case. We can then discuss that.

Are you saying caustic doesn’t react with tin and lead!!??

More than happy to be wrong, but please do show how that’s the case. Fairly straight forward to prove if it is, in my opinion.

Nick - apologies, are you effectively questioning that 18k gold filled jewellery exists?

Kindest Regards,

 

[nickvc]

I worked for JM who supplied gold fill to the few jewellers who still used it and it was all 9 k that I can recall, it was some years ago, 18 k may exist elsewhere where low karat is not allowed but you said you purchased this in London.
I’d trim my expectations of the yield as I know of no gold dealers or refiners who willingly give away that much gold , I may be wrong but I doubt you will get an ounce of fine and if you get that you have a good source at a reasonable return, doubling your money plus is not common in this business.

 

[Jmk88]

Nick,

With all due respect and I thoroughly mean that, that’s not a discussion I’m prepared to spend energy on.

I suggest you read the link I posted.

All the best.

 

[Jmk88]

https://www.assayoffice.co.uk/assets/uploads/Final%20Guidance%20Notes%20Oct%2016.pdf

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/215595

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-filled_jewelry

https://www.gldn.com/blog/2017/3/2/what-is-14k-gold-fill-vs-gold-plated

 

[butcher]

Cheers, that is nice of you anachronism.





Jmk88,

My friend your still not listening, You are a smart man I can tell, but your plowing so far ahead it is hard for me to tell where in the field you are.
Slow down and listen, take it easy, you may find the information and people you are plowing by so fast somewhat helpful, there may be other, or even "Better" or faster ways, but it may not be the best way to get the field plowed before winter.
If you slow down some you might see another way or something you did not see when you were flying by so fast with the mule, if nothing else you may see something that might help you slow that mule down before he pulls you over a cliff with him.

You may find the information wrong or find a better way later or learn different later or prove us all wrong, but you will not know another way, or maybe even something you do not know now if you do not listen or open your mind a little.

Consider somewhat at least that we may have some idea about what we are talking about when it comes to gold recovery and refining, and listen to at least a little bit, (even if you do not agree at first).

I would consider Jon's gracious offer to help you with the gold fill...
Any time Nickvc talks about jewelry or gold I am all ears.

 

[nickvc]

I forgot to tell but you I also worked at the Birmingham Assay Office and rolled gold or gold filled is not required to be hallmarked and there is no legislation to cover exactly what you get, it’s down to the manufacturers honesty to mark their goods correctly and as pointed out the only part that is gold is the surface which is what wears and where it’s polished before been sold.

If your expectations aren’t achieved I’m pointing out why, how you process this material is your choice but I would advise listening to those who have been there and done that.

 

[Jmk88]

I’m super open to any help. But it needs to be logical
and practical; it’s a generic offer which isn’t supported with how or why it will help.

I’ve absolutely no issue with being wrong; I welcome being wrong as that’s when you learn. I’m a win or learn man. I never consider loss unless it’s associated with something living.

I still don’t understand what it is I’m “wrong” about. I have posted various supporting information to my comments and it isn’t hard to establish what major refineries do regarding caustic and jewellery.

 

[Jmk88]

Nick,

We are both UK based and I have an office in Birmingham. Also one in Finsbury Square.

I will pm you; I’m happy to discuss on phone or even arrange a joint process with you.

I work for myself so am fairly available. Would love to speak in person and make a U.K. connection from here.

Would you like me to send my personal contact details?

Kindest Regards,

 

[butcher]

It may not be: what is fastest, what works the best, how much, a certain amount, a certain formula, a certain method...

The real chemistry is not always as neat and tidy as the chemistry books...
Chemistry is not black and white.
Recovery and refining is not black and white.
There may be more than one way.

Most of the chemistry we do is not written in your college chemistry books, although we do use that chemistry found in those college books to help explain, help us understand the chemistry of what we do, the college chemistry books can help us figure some things out, and understand different ways to go, or not, provide us with very helpful and useful information,,,

 

[Jmk88]

Yes and please don’t think ignorance is a demon that I entertain... it really isn’t.

The information I find here is second to none; it’s the practicality of when the theoretical doesn’t work. And the reality is, I ignored professional advice and went with hcl the first time and it just created an absolute mess which nearly lost me my guidance.

I then had to humbly plead for the professional to clean my mess up; as a man, having other people clean your mess up is not very encouraging or where I personally want to be.

 

[butcher]

My wife had a knocking noise inside her engine, she went to a professional mechanic.
She said she wanted to learn to fix it herself.

He gave her a lesson on how to fix her car, explaining the repairs and tools needed in every detail...


I will leave the results to your imagination after she starts stripping all of those nuts and bolts...

Now she may go to another professional mechanic and he may give her somewhat different advice about how he does the repairs and explains how she should fix her car explaining every detail.

Well then, now she not only has a pile of stripped bolts half of her car tore apart, but she is now is even more confused, and frustrated.
some simple things are not really as simple as they seem.

One mechanic said to pull apart the top half of the engine to get to the problem.
The other mechanic told her to pull off the bottom half of the engine, using different tools.
Without a background or at least a little bit of mechanical experience, it is just not that simple.

Even if she followed instructions to a tee, not everything that is mechanical will follow the rule book or work like it is supposed to just like plumbing, any time you work on it it is going to work to give you problems to solve...