Hello, New here, think I made a mistake..

[solar_plasma]

Don't feel easily offended. This is a very proud, sometimes rough like some 49ers and serious community and sometimes it may sound harsh, when we think someone needs to get it this way. Sometimes it may sound harsh since many of us don't use English as their first or even second language.

Read some other noob posts and you will get a feeling for what is acceptable and what not.

We expect people to do their best to first try to answer questions on their own. Searching for some hours through the forum is quite normal for us. Sometimes you just can't find the right term for getting any results. Then there are many who will gladly help out.

Don't expect anyone will spoon feed you in order to learn the basics, that are quite easy to find on your own. If something doesn't make sense to you, expect it to be your fault. Read more, read again. Once you think you have read all about a process, you are welcome to ask to get an idea of where your thoughts went wrong. Never say, that a proven and respected process is bad, something for dumb hillbillies or that you know better, before you have mastered this process and all others, so you have a basis to compare with. You will understand, that each respected process is the best tool of all in a defined setting.

You can say, you have mastered a process to some degree, when you have processed the gold the respected way, have melted it and have proof for its pureness. Before you haven't done so, be careful with what you are saying. Every idiot can drop or precipitate gold, but it won't be pure or he will have lost a lot of it.

Once you read the forum for real, be aware of, that some methods have changed over time. For example, it is not recommended to use urea for anything else but as a fertilizer or maybe some hand creme. We use sulfamic acid instead. Many methods are not recommended or even very limited, because of the dangers. Be careful with what you advise. Chemicals that are daily tools for you, might be the death himself in the hands of the unknowing. On the other side, some chemicals you know to use safely in your context, are extremely dangerous in the context of refining. I know what I talk about, I have learned to look with much more respect at some chemicals I use daily since 20 years at work.

I hope those advices can help you to get a good start.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[pu_239]

Thanks for the welcoming goldandsilver and solar.
goldandsilver i was browsing the forums and saw your post to your book, i looked at the sample. It looks very good, I do plan to buy it eventually, has many good things in it. Solar, I do understand constructive criticism, so in the future I won't take things personally.

I was writing another long winded post(deleted it). I'll try to keep it short. Frankly, I lost 40 dollars after everything is said and done. Comparing my figures to figures online i didn't do bad with my yield. My main objective was to make a profit. I am not looking a way to get rich, but more of a part time job, i liked doing what i did, it was fun. I know it was dumb of me to jump right in. I know people who are selling are looking to make a profit. That leaves me(the buyer) least likely to make a profit. I searched many avenues of refining, various types of jewelry, computer parts, catalytic converters etc... the prices aren't there for me to make a profit. I am just looking for a little money, not much, something as a little part time job. I am very hesitant to retry gold refining. I spent 120 and got back about 80-90 dollars.

I know many people go around looking at yard sales, placing ads, things of that sort. With school, i frankly don't have the time. Ideally I would like to make a purchase of something in bulk and refine it. If i was to buy ram it would be at 7 dollars a pound, and i don't see anyone selling at that price, I looked high and low. I have 2 options, call it quits, or find a way how to make this work.

I am asking how can i make this work? How can i make a little profit doing this? If i do get feed back on how to pull this off. I plan to read hokes book fully before i get started. As mentioned, I also ordered lazersteve's dvd's. So i'll do my research on the recovery process well before i gets started.

 

[solar_plasma]

It seems to be easier in the States and almost impossible to start a business in Europe. Some thoughts about that subject I had: It seems possible to buy at 90%. If 5% goes to materials, energy and so on, there are 5% left. Regarding working time, it is the same work doing a pound high grade scrap as doing 20 pounds. So the solution would probably be, only to process the biggest loads you can handle. Then 5% for the work would be a nice margin.

What you need are some good connections. Customers who sell their high grade scrap to you, because they trust in you getting the correct, maybe best price. And customers who trust in the quality of your product and still get it 2% cheaper than any other place.

The keywords seem to be high grade scrap, high grade products, trust and large quantities.

How this can be achieved...maybe first become a skilled refiner, so you have some products, you can show your customers. Then go out and talk to them.

Until then you could start with just buying and selling without processing. Good books about the theory of starting and running a successful business are: Leading change by John P. Kotter and How to solve the mismanagement crisis by Ichak Adizes. You should be able to find those on every university library, that provides organizational psychology.

Just some ideas I have had, based on everything I have read here,on the net and in my studies.

 

[butcher]

pu_239,
Where I find profit is mostly from the education, which to me is invaluable.

You are a fast learner, you are seeing what many of us know, making a profit from recovery and refining precious metals is a hard thing to do.

 

[necromancer]

pu_239,
Where I find profit is mostly from the education, which to me is invaluable.

You are a fast learner, you are seeing what many of us know, making a profit from recovery and refining precious metals is a hard thing to do.

you are so correct !!

 

[Palladium]

pu_239,
Where I find profit is mostly from the education, which to me is invaluable.

You are a fast learner, you are seeing what many of us know, making a profit from recovery and refining precious metals is a hard thing to do.

you are so correct !!

I'll second that !

 

[Shark]

There a few ways to get a head profit wise, but very few. I have been working with a small computer shop to obtain some of my materials. I pay them .30 cents under boardsort prices for finger cards, which doesn't leave much room to come out ahead, but I get memory sticks for $4.00 per pound. Another advantage has been that I get information on other materials that they can't deal with due to being tied down to running their business. Kind of a trade off, but we both make out decent with it. Due to other things I have been involved with over the years, I have a fairly decent range of contacts who offer me assistance in locating other materials as well, most of which only cost me time and gas, as well as a few who just drop off materials right to my building door. I came home a few weeks ago to find a small truck load of old PII and PIII systems sitting neatly stacked beside the shop door and I still have no idea where they came from. I have a working deal with a small, local store chain that often needs older metal shelving removed they no longer use. Usually in lots to small for commercial people to deal with so I go haul them off for them. I carry them straight to the scrap yard, if I don't need them, and any money from that sale goes direct into buying those $4 a pound memory sticks. Yesterday I made a deal for 5 pounds of mixed CPU's at $7 pound. From the 5 pounds, I got 9 386/486 CPU's the rest were slot type PII/PIII's, with the exception of 7 processors that happened to be the Pentium Pro's. I have located another 3 pounds for the same price. For me, being into a wide range of projects over the years has been fairly good to me. I am by no means a large a large scale refiner, but I enjoy working at it and it fills a niche for me I find very satisfying. I work hard to keep pace with dealing with my wastes and any scraps that aren't PM/PGM related, and turn those scraps back into the things that have potential. There are still a few deals out there, but finding them isn't always easy and you will hit dry spells at times. It is all a part of the game and you just have to take what life gives you.

Good Luck, and I hope you have great success.

 

[pu_239]

@ solar_plasma, I should be grateful that I do have the opportunity to start something. That was my original plan, to deal with high volumes. I know there isn’t much to be made, the only way to do it is with high volumes. I was planning to reinvest half of whatever I made. Even if I only profited 10 dollars, from a 100 dollar investment, now I have 105 dollars to reinvest. Over time, these small reinvestments will add up to buy more volume. Before I even posted here, my first calculations said I would probably make about 5-10 dollars profit. I put it in to excel to add half of what my profit to my next order. In 2years it turned in to a lot of profit, but it was of course high volume as well.
It sounds like you’re recommending to be a refiner for other people. I do see that as a good way to get started. People give me their scrap, I turn it in to money for them. I get a small % of what I made for them. I really don’t have to invest money, just the chemicals and some time. I will read those books you recommended.
@butch, thanks this was definitely a learning experience. I always felt, unless you actually do it, you don’t know anything about it. I felt I understood the chemical process involved, which I did for the most part. But there is a lot more to refining then just the chemistry as many have told me.

side note, wasn’t sure if it you(butch) or solar_plasma who told me to add the bleach in increments to the HCl. I did that, it worked great. It’s also safer, limits Cl2 gas production.

@Shark today I went out to buy some hot dogs, there is a little computer repair shop next to where I went for the hot dogs. I talked to the people there, I just pretty much asked, “You have any computer parts that don’t work?” The guy told me, “You should have come 2-3 days ago, we just took all our stuff to the recycling place.” He told me they got rid of 20-30 computers. I just went to 1 shop, there are a few in the area. So I do see some opportunity.

I also have to have a computer repair business, I am sure I can get scrap computer from shops, see what works, put together a few computers and sell those, process the things that don’t work.
I also believe there is some opportunity in the auction sections of ebay for scrap jeweler. It’s an auction, I saw some that appear to be a decent deal. But I will do more research on jewelry before I jump in. I know there are a few types, plated, rolled/filled etc…
On my agenda for winter break, read hoke’s book (and of course Steve’s dvd’s). Go around to computer shops asking for stuff they don’t want. I am going to process about 2lbs of ram sticks that I have (without the fingers) the IC chips, and the MCC. See if my profit is better if I keep the ram boards or process them myself.
The lessons learned here are great, don’t dive in to things without being 100% sure you know what you’re doing. If you decided to invest (try to make a profit) don’t go all in. Do a few test runs first with small quantities (which I am going to do with the jewelry).

Thanks everyone, even if some posts where to just slap me around, it was still beneficial. Thanks again.

 

[Shark]

It is all a matter of how much you want to produce. (Gold wise) I started out with trash, literately, from my job. My first button weighed 6.4 grams and over half of that came from drops of only .1 or .2 grams at a time. Talk about a serious learning curve :lol: It took me a year to get there. Today, I have 3.2 grams ready to melt, another gram that will come out of the AP tomorrow. (Not enough time today) And two more small batch's ready to go into AP, with more waiting. I am not worried about speed, I just love the over all experiences involved doing it. I have a tank that will handle AP in 10 gallon lots, but I can't see what is going on inside it, so I still do little lots in glass, just so I can watch those gold foils falling. Like I said, I am not large scale, but I do have fun at it. I had planned, in the beginning, to just give it a try, with no real thoughts of success or long term plans for refining. Now I am in the process of putting up another small building just for this. I have used what I get to build up slowly, and continue to add as the opportunity allows. I have done this with out ever having used real nitric acid. I have made cold nitric quite often, but it can pose it's own problems to deal with. I have a dedicated sulfuric cell, that works very well. I have a separate area, for storing and working with my wastes. A fume hood of sorts, that does a pretty good job, and will be upgraded with the new building, along with a new system for a scrubber. And this is just a hobby, I still do not even own a real beaker. I have never toll refined, or even worked gold for anyone else. I have only sold one button, for the experience, so far. The best thing of all has been the help I have gotten from people that have advised me along the way, along with a lot of great reading and shared knowledge of the forums. Knowledge and friendship are the real riches to be found here, the rest is just icing on the cake. I think you have had time now to realize just how many wise and knowledgeable people really frequent this forum, and can help you, and others, a long the way. I can say they have done more than their share of guiding me, and they continue doing so. Believe me, I still have a lot of learning to go yet, and I am looking forward to it.

Best of Luck, and success.

 

[pu_239]

It is all a matter of how much you want to produce. (Gold wise) I started out with trash, literately, from my job. My first button weighed 6.4 grams and over half of that came from drops of only .1 or .2 grams at a time. Talk about a serious learning curve :lol: It took me a year to get there. Today, I have 3.2 grams ready to melt, another gram that will come out of the AP tomorrow. (Not enough time today) And two more small batch's ready to go into AP, with more waiting. I am not worried about speed, I just love the over all experiences involved doing it. I have a tank that will handle AP in 10 gallon lots, but I can't see what is going on inside it, so I still do little lots in glass, just so I can watch those gold foils falling. Like I said, I am not large scale, but I do have fun at it. I had planned, in the beginning, to just give it a try, with no real thoughts of success or long term plans for refining. Now I am in the process of putting up another small building just for this. I have used what I get to build up slowly, and continue to add as the opportunity allows. I have done this with out ever having used real nitric acid. I have made cold nitric quite often, but it can pose it's own problems to deal with. I have a dedicated sulfuric cell, that works very well. I have a separate area, for storing and working with my wastes. A fume hood of sorts, that does a pretty good job, and will be upgraded with the new building, along with a new system for a scrubber. And this is just a hobby, I still do not even own a real beaker. I have never toll refined, or even worked gold for anyone else. I have only sold one button, for the experience, so far. The best thing of all has been the help I have gotten from people that have advised me along the way, along with a lot of great reading and shared knowledge of the forums. Knowledge and friendship are the real riches to be found here, the rest is just icing on the cake. I think you have had time now to realize just how many wise and knowledgeable people really frequent this forum, and can help you, and others, a long the way. I can say they have done more than their share of guiding me, and they continue doing so. Believe me, I still have a lot of learning to go yet, and I am looking forward to it.

Best of Luck, and success.

That's nice, the thing that cried out to me in what you said was, "continue to add as opportunity allows." I am pretty sure I am going to get a part time job in the stock room at school, preparing chemicals for the classes. So i will get a little bit of money. look for some decent deals, maybe spend like 50 dollars here and there to build up my gold. Just save it for myself as you're doing. I looked at the 30yr stock price for gold. There are high peaks and valleys, but over all, in the long term, the trend is gold is increasing. Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.

The risk in keeping your gold in liquid form is that bottles can break and plastic containers can fail. Better to precipitate it. Powders are easier to recover in case of an accident.

Welcome to the forum.

Dave

 

[pu_239]

Before i got started, I just had the idea of having dissolved gold in a plastic container, that was my profit. I won't be able to spend it without extraction, so it will take work for me to get to that money. It would be cool to just let the gallon fill up. Maybe years down the road have a few gallons and extract it when the gold prices are higher.

The risk in keeping your gold in liquid form is that bottles can break and plastic containers can fail. Better to precipitate it. Powders are easier to recover in case of an accident.

Welcome to the forum.

Dave

Yes that's a better idea, thanks.

 

[lazersteve]

...

A link i have also been trying to find is a a link by lasersteve, it was a little chart, I think it had "6M HCl and 0.22M H2O2 at 50 degree's C" and a few other temperature based reactions. I haven't been able to find it, i searched every where.

The chart is the dissolution rate chart and several other useful links:

Etch Rate Chart

Steve

 

[Pantherlikher]

So how'd you do on your finals?
Great hopefully.
Do any good reading since then?
Make any connections on this adventure?

I AP all I can and save any nice n shiny flakes in a bottle sitting next to my mouse here to keep me focused on learning more...
Always move forward...

B.S.