anachronism
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Ahh I hate it when posts get amended without a note. 8)
Large Scale E-Waste Recycling Processes Question
- Thread starter SLKInf
- Start date
Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
On July 4th, 2017, 10:23 am, SLKInf wrote:
" . . . . Financing: This is a black box right now, depending on what we need for startup, what I can get from SBA as disabled military vet, etc etc."
This is off-topic and I apologize to the board.
You mentioned the SBA. I am assuming that is the US Small Business Administration. Are you a US federally verified and certified SDVOSB (Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Business)? If not, you should look into it.
If SLKlnf would like more information, please send me a PM.
James
" . . . . Financing: This is a black box right now, depending on what we need for startup, what I can get from SBA as disabled military vet, etc etc."
This is off-topic and I apologize to the board.
You mentioned the SBA. I am assuming that is the US Small Business Administration. Are you a US federally verified and certified SDVOSB (Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Business)? If not, you should look into it.
If SLKlnf would like more information, please send me a PM.
James
anachronism said:Topher_osAUrus said:
Hey Toph it's 160g of gold mate
SLK you need to do more homework on your yield calculations because they are not realistic I'm afraid. Unless of course you are looking at taking a specific type of ewaste discretely and basing your figures upon that type of stream. The vast majority of ewaste yields less that 160ppm, and the vast majority doesn't contain Palladium.
In counterpoint I think your copper percentage may be low however the trade off between copper and precious metals will not balance out financially.
I was running these calculations as if we were only buying pcbs from sources. That way I could calculate a rough break even on how much we would need to Buy. My assumption is that there will be lots of other e-waste as you mention, but that this will either be purchased at a much lower price or free. Therefore we would require much more volume of them but our % return would most likely be higher. This was a worst case scenario where we have to purchase all the pcbs. That being said it is also an assumption that the market there can provide at least 10mt of straight pcbs per mo. If the market cannot, then we may have an issue jaja. Do you mind sharing more of your thoughts on the yields from pcbs if they are different than what I put up? I made my numbers purposely quite a bit lower than any other data I have found, to ensure that they were worst case scenarios. Even the many different posts here on the forum all have higher numbers than I put up, but you have personal experience, I have none, so I value any input you care to share.
I haven't been able to get complete pricing from any of the Chinese suppliers so far, so I put up $1m, but I am hoping that machinery is possible below $500k. I need to research different machinery companies outside of Asia.
Toph, really, I have nooooo idea what you are talking about ajaja
Cos, thank you very much. I am not yet certified because I left the Corps at the end of last year and came over to Madrid shortly after. That and this is a new company that I am working on setting up, so it is not actually in existence yet. But definitely a good point, I know the process takes some time, so I should work on setting it up while I am here, in the dead time before I plan on starting operations, I will add that to my to-do list. Thank you for the reminder.
Come on guys, destroy my business model! Give me like Shark Tank, make me cry because my idea is stupid, assumptions are flawed and I need to go back to work at McDonalds.
anachronism
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SLKInf said:
Well I wouldn't necessarily want to destroy your model because seeing people get on and better themselves and make a go of this is something I personally like to see. However I'm happy to tell you straight where it's flawed.
You cannot base a business model upon the yields posted "on t'interweb" as we say in the UK. Why? Simply because 99% of the posted yields are rubbish. They are rubbish because the guys who really know the yields won't post their results because it would remove commercial advantage, and the vast majority of what you see is similar to Wikipedia data which is often completely unsubstantiated.
To do this you would need to invest a few hundred thousand in buying refinery product, striking up a refinery deal, and over the course of a number of months determining your own yields BEFORE even considering the route of refining yourself.
When you've bought your own yield data, (which effectively you will need to do) then you need to look at the maths long and hard of yield from refinery vs yield from refining yourself.
Would lashing out $500k on equipment give you an ROI on it's own? No. Because you need to add the cost of people who really know what they are doing on top of your CAPEX. Those people are not cheap.
So bottom line is as follows- would you make enough extra money over sending it to a refinery to justify doing it yourself? Personally speaking no you wouldn't. By all means buy it and have it refined. Selecting a more honest refinery with the skill to get the whole range of metals out will be an enormous challenge in itself but that is your first step to being able to determine whether or not this will work because without your own yield data you have nothing. Zip. Nada. Nothing.
Jon
I have to say that Jon nailed the point, once you are in the hands of refiners you are at risk.
If you have no yield data you will be robbed and excessively it's the nature of the business, if you think you can beat the system with no knowledge it's going to be a very expensive learning curve before you finally find the real figures, assays are your friend but come with great expense for varied products and are only as good as the samples submitted.
If you have no yield data you will be robbed and excessively it's the nature of the business, if you think you can beat the system with no knowledge it's going to be a very expensive learning curve before you finally find the real figures, assays are your friend but come with great expense for varied products and are only as good as the samples submitted.
nickvc said:
Perfect. This is the kind of thing I do not know as I am on the outside looking in right now. And this is exactly the kind of information that will help mould the decision making over the next months. One of the biggest questions is; How far up the refining process makes commercial sense.
One possibility I've always been open to is that perhaps at first the business is strictly collection, data destruction, CSR, dismantling, and then selling to an end refiner. This would require less initial investment and would build up cash flow, allowing us to invest in end refining capabilities in the future.
However one question for both you and Jon is, what about people like KJ who have built their own refining equipment for affordable prices? Certainly they may be smaller and unable to handle many tons per day, but couldn't there be a middle ground between investing millions in refining equipment or only doing dismantling and then selling the product to end refiners? Couldn't you dismantle and sell the majority of that output to refiners, but keep the known high PM content components like cpus and refine those ourself? Maybe I am confusing different things here and am totally off?
Sam
If I read you correctly, you are describing the same dilemma that I currently face. Even though I have no intentions to pursue the scale that you have been describing.
I am in my “proof-of-concept” phase of development so that I can ultimately do what the others are suggesting – know your methods and numbers from personal exposure and effort.
I have spent months data-mining about PCB, etc. recycling and the equipment needed. I have determined what course I am going to follow as far as getting the PCBs, etc. ready for the refining phase. Now, the big question I still face is - do I want to attempt my own refining or do I want to densify my PMs by smelting into a bullion bar – then XRF and fire assay. I am leaning toward the bullion bar if I can find a trustworthy refiner. Still, everything I am doing now, including the building of my equipment, is going to be prototype with process engineering pilot runs to debug and improve.
Perhaps you may be better served to first plan on building a test facility – do your test runs and get first hand data. I can tell you for a fact, if you are seeking outside financing (private or government) to have concrete data, personally acquired and documented, is very impressive and persuading.
James
I am in my “proof-of-concept” phase of development so that I can ultimately do what the others are suggesting – know your methods and numbers from personal exposure and effort.
I have spent months data-mining about PCB, etc. recycling and the equipment needed. I have determined what course I am going to follow as far as getting the PCBs, etc. ready for the refining phase. Now, the big question I still face is - do I want to attempt my own refining or do I want to densify my PMs by smelting into a bullion bar – then XRF and fire assay. I am leaning toward the bullion bar if I can find a trustworthy refiner. Still, everything I am doing now, including the building of my equipment, is going to be prototype with process engineering pilot runs to debug and improve.
Perhaps you may be better served to first plan on building a test facility – do your test runs and get first hand data. I can tell you for a fact, if you are seeking outside financing (private or government) to have concrete data, personally acquired and documented, is very impressive and persuading.
James
The idea of cherry picking your scrap is what we recommend to all of our members as much e scrap is simply not a viable proposition for recovery and refining.
I would suggest looking at what I would call the secondary refiners, these simply buy or treat large volumes of scrap by granulation, sorting, incineration and finally melting large copper based bars which are assayed and then sent on to the copper refineries where they get paid for certain metals and penalized for others, this sort of operation is still costly to set up especially with the environmental controls they now have to use and the laws about release of toxic gases and materials.
The other route is to know your product, this means having knowledge of the actual value of each type of scrap you handle, assays are always good but remember that in much scrap the base metals can have a greater value than the precious metals, there are members who know this information but will not share which is understandable considering the costs of gaining this knowledge and the fact that it is the basis of their business.
If you had all that information and ran a recycling business would you willingly share it?
If you can source quantities of scrap then perhaps your way forward is to strike a deal with such a member or company and cherry pick the better scrap for home recovery.
I would suggest looking at what I would call the secondary refiners, these simply buy or treat large volumes of scrap by granulation, sorting, incineration and finally melting large copper based bars which are assayed and then sent on to the copper refineries where they get paid for certain metals and penalized for others, this sort of operation is still costly to set up especially with the environmental controls they now have to use and the laws about release of toxic gases and materials.
The other route is to know your product, this means having knowledge of the actual value of each type of scrap you handle, assays are always good but remember that in much scrap the base metals can have a greater value than the precious metals, there are members who know this information but will not share which is understandable considering the costs of gaining this knowledge and the fact that it is the basis of their business.
If you had all that information and ran a recycling business would you willingly share it?
If you can source quantities of scrap then perhaps your way forward is to strike a deal with such a member or company and cherry pick the better scrap for home recovery.
anachronism
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SLKInf said:
Hi Sam
Building equipment for affordable prices is one thing. Making a profit from said equipment over and above sending it to a refinery is a completely different proposition. What I have seen is people trying and ending up worse off financially.
I can refine. I can recover the values from most types of ewaste however I cannot handle the volumes I get effectively and efficiently whilst getting all the values from it. In over 5 years I've not seen anyone on here who can demonstrate that they can achieve the same results as an experienced refinery in volume. That's the bottom line, and if you have the capital to invest then I urge you to follow the advice I made in my previous post rather than throw it away.
Jon
The world of e-scrap is evolving, new types of circuitry are constantly being engineered to use less PM's and new processing technologies are also evolving. So what is a start up to do? First off you must know your feed materials. Second you need to have up close and personal experience with refiners who process this material so you can witness, first hand, the different processes involved.
The reason so many experienced refiners incinerate (pyrolyze) and melt the metallic fractions is because that gives you a means to generate representative samples. Most refiners of moderate size already have equipment to do the pyrolysis and melting in house so it is a good fit. The ability to generate a representative sample is the most important thing. Whether or not you process the powders or copper based bullion in house is secondary to knowing what is in it. You can always grow into the processing. First, the ability to generate good representative samples while sending out assays and refining, second learn the assaying process to do it yourself and third, after crunching the numbers for a benefit cost analysis, processing the copper based bullion yourself. If you follow these 3 steps, you will minimize your risk, avoid excessive capital outlays until they prove their value to your operation, and grow your business with working capital you generate rather than going to a bank for financing.
Your question is not unlike questions asked time and time again here on the forum, and my answer always centers on the critical importance of knowing what your material is worth. Without that knowledge, you stand little chance of getting a maximum return shipping un-sample-able material to a refiner. When you know what you ship, your odds improve.
Get a few tons of material, shop around for refiners who will let you visit and sample, and get up close and personal with the methods being used. That witnessing and sampling will be as valuable, if not more valuable than any course material you cover in a university class. There is no class in university called Refining Precious Metals 101, that knowledge is hard learned from hands on experience and study.
The closest you will ever come to a class in Refining Precious Metals 101 is right here on this forum.
The reason so many experienced refiners incinerate (pyrolyze) and melt the metallic fractions is because that gives you a means to generate representative samples. Most refiners of moderate size already have equipment to do the pyrolysis and melting in house so it is a good fit. The ability to generate a representative sample is the most important thing. Whether or not you process the powders or copper based bullion in house is secondary to knowing what is in it. You can always grow into the processing. First, the ability to generate good representative samples while sending out assays and refining, second learn the assaying process to do it yourself and third, after crunching the numbers for a benefit cost analysis, processing the copper based bullion yourself. If you follow these 3 steps, you will minimize your risk, avoid excessive capital outlays until they prove their value to your operation, and grow your business with working capital you generate rather than going to a bank for financing.
Your question is not unlike questions asked time and time again here on the forum, and my answer always centers on the critical importance of knowing what your material is worth. Without that knowledge, you stand little chance of getting a maximum return shipping un-sample-able material to a refiner. When you know what you ship, your odds improve.
Get a few tons of material, shop around for refiners who will let you visit and sample, and get up close and personal with the methods being used. That witnessing and sampling will be as valuable, if not more valuable than any course material you cover in a university class. There is no class in university called Refining Precious Metals 101, that knowledge is hard learned from hands on experience and study.
The closest you will ever come to a class in Refining Precious Metals 101 is right here on this forum.
Hey guys
This is indeed a very interesting thread. Im in the same boat as the Owner of this thread.
I just say i have come to the same conclusions as 4metals and other on this forum. If you dont assay you are screwed.
As SLKInf wrote i have also taken numbers on the contents of the PCBs from the internet to have something to think about. But i did not look at forums or company websites. I took them from a research paper done in 2013-2014. This has little more "weight" than numbers on a website or a forum. But not much. Need for assay is great any way. I have attached one of them it here if some is interested.
Im from Sweden and we have the largest e-waste recycler in the world here, Boliden - Rönnskär. They do this by smelting, about 120 000 metric tons a year. One interesting thing about them is: they assay every single shipment they get. Every single one. And they put that cost onto their suppliers and they don't do payouts until the assay is done. That way they take risk away from their business.
When i have done some calculations i come to the same conclusions that SLKinf has done. If you want a extremely lightweight operation you can do breakeven with som very low tonnage. This is the numbers that i have used, they are in % of the pcb weight when its unprocessed.
Cu Copper 14,600%
Zn Zink 5,620%
Pb Lead 2,960%
Fe Iron 4,790%
Ni Nickel 1,650%
Cr Crome 0,356%
Ag Silver 0,045%
Au Gold 0,021%
Sn Tin 5,620%
Then if we think that we can only sell Cu, Au and Ag and the rest gets wasted then we have something to build our thoughts around.
I will do assay on circuts board shortly i have bought a few pounds and will ship them off to a company that helps me. Then i will have some more definitive numbers to work on. But when i buy i think that assaying the shipment is necessary for me to do for every shipment we buy.
The thing i ask myself. If i find a guy that wants to sell me 25 tones of e-scrap. With that kind of volume, why would he not go to Dynamic or another big scrap buyer? Why does he want to sell to me? The obvious reason: he thinks i will pay better. Our interests are in conflict and i need to be careful not to get screwed, you know...the bad way I have seen sellers that sell PCBs for 250-360 usd per metric tone and others that sell for 2000 to 5000 usd per tone. This is a jungle and a very thick one!
Calculating income is difficult without assay but calculating cost is much easier. Labor here in SE is really expensive and then there is the matter of electricity and things. I have just started to look into this and it will be on another post if it can interest someone
If you are interested i can put some more numbers when assay is done. There is a lot more to talk about and my post starts to get long now. So i will stop now and hope you guys don't fall asleep
Peace
/Håkan
This is indeed a very interesting thread. Im in the same boat as the Owner of this thread.
I just say i have come to the same conclusions as 4metals and other on this forum. If you dont assay you are screwed.
As SLKInf wrote i have also taken numbers on the contents of the PCBs from the internet to have something to think about. But i did not look at forums or company websites. I took them from a research paper done in 2013-2014. This has little more "weight" than numbers on a website or a forum. But not much. Need for assay is great any way. I have attached one of them it here if some is interested.
Im from Sweden and we have the largest e-waste recycler in the world here, Boliden - Rönnskär. They do this by smelting, about 120 000 metric tons a year. One interesting thing about them is: they assay every single shipment they get. Every single one. And they put that cost onto their suppliers and they don't do payouts until the assay is done. That way they take risk away from their business.
When i have done some calculations i come to the same conclusions that SLKinf has done. If you want a extremely lightweight operation you can do breakeven with som very low tonnage. This is the numbers that i have used, they are in % of the pcb weight when its unprocessed.
Cu Copper 14,600%
Zn Zink 5,620%
Pb Lead 2,960%
Fe Iron 4,790%
Ni Nickel 1,650%
Cr Crome 0,356%
Ag Silver 0,045%
Au Gold 0,021%
Sn Tin 5,620%
Then if we think that we can only sell Cu, Au and Ag and the rest gets wasted then we have something to build our thoughts around.
I will do assay on circuts board shortly i have bought a few pounds and will ship them off to a company that helps me. Then i will have some more definitive numbers to work on. But when i buy i think that assaying the shipment is necessary for me to do for every shipment we buy.
The thing i ask myself. If i find a guy that wants to sell me 25 tones of e-scrap. With that kind of volume, why would he not go to Dynamic or another big scrap buyer? Why does he want to sell to me? The obvious reason: he thinks i will pay better. Our interests are in conflict and i need to be careful not to get screwed, you know...the bad way
I have seen sellers that sell PCBs for 250-360 usd per metric tone and others that sell for 2000 to 5000 usd per tone. This is a jungle and a very thick one!Calculating income is difficult without assay but calculating cost is much easier. Labor here in SE is really expensive and then there is the matter of electricity and things. I have just started to look into this and it will be on another post if it can interest someone
If you are interested i can put some more numbers when assay is done. There is a lot more to talk about and my post starts to get long now. So i will stop now and hope you guys don't fall asleep
Peace
/Håkan
One last thing: SLKInf you write in you post that 10 ppl for a month cost 4000 usd? Can this be right? Where i live ONE guy costs 3 357usd per month... They then work for about 10,5 months effectively per year and cost 12 * 3357 usd = 40 284 usd.
Ten ppl in Sweden with low salary would then be $403 000 per year :G :shock: .
/Håkan
They then work for about 10,5 months effectively per year and cost 12 * 3357 usd = 40 284 usd. Ten ppl in Sweden with low salary would then be $403 000 per year :G :shock: .
/Håkan
Sorry for the delay guys. Was busy wrapping up last week's projects and then decided last minute to head up to Pamplona and run with the bulls yesterday morning. Was definitely an unique experience jaja. I haven't had many near death experiences since I stopped flying in 2015 so it was nice to have a little adrenaline rush, but this type left too much to luck, I'm not sure I'll run it again.
Somehow I missed this initially. Thanks for the info, I hadn't seen this German company yet. KJ, when you say mbmmllc's "system" had those recovery rates, are you talking about the hammermill, shaker table, hydrocyclone process? That seems like quite a high recovery rate for not a very heavy investment. \
)
Nothing new to report right now. Heading to an e-recycler a few hours away tomorrow and a second one on tuesday.
Adios
Sam
Somehow I missed this initially. Thanks for the info, I hadn't seen this German company yet. KJ, when you say mbmmllc's "system" had those recovery rates, are you talking about the hammermill, shaker table, hydrocyclone process? That seems like quite a high recovery rate for not a very heavy investment. \
This seems to be the consensus, thank you for the input guys. I certainly am not throwing any of this info away. This had been my initial expectation, typically it isn't a good idea to jump knee deep into technical processes that require lots of investment, with no experience or expertise. But I wanted to do more research on just how much that investment would be, crunch some numbers, and get yalls feedback.
Yessir, that is correct. LatAm labor is slightly different from socialist Europe (just joking, but seriously
)Nothing new to report right now. Heading to an e-recycler a few hours away tomorrow and a second one on tuesday.
Adios
Sam
kjavanb123
Well-known member
Hi Sam
When I first sent a sample of pulverized boards to mbmmllc which was 2 years ago they just had their shaker table.
Those recovery rates are based on assaying the discharge of concentrate, middling and tailing when running my materials on shaker table.
Their latest turn-key system has magnet separator, also they modified their hydrocyclone and shaker table feed so I am sure their recovery rate has greatly increased.
Regards
Kj
When I first sent a sample of pulverized boards to mbmmllc which was 2 years ago they just had their shaker table.
Those recovery rates are based on assaying the discharge of concentrate, middling and tailing when running my materials on shaker table.
Their latest turn-key system has magnet separator, also they modified their hydrocyclone and shaker table feed so I am sure their recovery rate has greatly increased.
Regards
Kj
Well we just spent three hours at a large ewaste recycling plant here. They contract with some large technology companies and also for the local municpalities that collect individual consumer waste and process around 1,200metric tons per mo.
They have a large multi stage shredding, grinding, electrostatic and wet shaker table separation. They were processing lots of crts, white label appliances as well as cable boxes and things like that, and then whatever random consumer electronics they receive.
The trip was in Spanish which I am not fluent, but my team is so they did most of the talking. Their processes seemed decently refined, it was large and clean and seemed efficient. However they dont process any further than the shakaer table output, which was between plastics and then all other metals (remaining after their magnetic separation). I was really surprised that they said their primary incomes are from cu and plastic. They said that the amount of gold, silver and palladium were basically inconsequential. I was flummoxed by this. I understand that the items they are primarily recycling are much lower in precious metals, but I find it hard to believe that they cant recover any consequential amount from over 1,200mt per mo???
Because of this their margins were quite a bit lower than I would have expected.
If smaller companies and many of you on this forum are able to access tons of high pm content pcbs, I'm at a loss as to why a company of this size wouldnt do the same thing?
Im at a loss lol.
They have a large multi stage shredding, grinding, electrostatic and wet shaker table separation. They were processing lots of crts, white label appliances as well as cable boxes and things like that, and then whatever random consumer electronics they receive.
The trip was in Spanish which I am not fluent, but my team is so they did most of the talking. Their processes seemed decently refined, it was large and clean and seemed efficient. However they dont process any further than the shakaer table output, which was between plastics and then all other metals (remaining after their magnetic separation). I was really surprised that they said their primary incomes are from cu and plastic. They said that the amount of gold, silver and palladium were basically inconsequential. I was flummoxed by this. I understand that the items they are primarily recycling are much lower in precious metals, but I find it hard to believe that they cant recover any consequential amount from over 1,200mt per mo???
Because of this their margins were quite a bit lower than I would have expected.
If smaller companies and many of you on this forum are able to access tons of high pm content pcbs, I'm at a loss as to why a company of this size wouldnt do the same thing?
Im at a loss lol.
kjavanb123
Well-known member
So what do they do with PMs?
Honestly I dont know. I dont inderstand it. Im going to follow up with some questions to clarify some things.
They did have a cool idea where they grind up crt glass and sell it to companies who use it to make bricks for xray rooms in hospitals. That was a really creative idea.
They did have a cool idea where they grind up crt glass and sell it to companies who use it to make bricks for xray rooms in hospitals. That was a really creative idea.
anachronism
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SLKInf said:
It's creative however the money has long left the building in that particular game. There used to be plants everywhere in the UK doing it and they closed one by one. They were taking the lead from the glass because leaded glass from the CRT necks is classed as hazardous waste.
To answer your other point. Given that "mixed WEEE" sells for around £45 per tonne in the UK, 1200 tonnes of low grade WEEE doesn't generate a massive amount of profit from precious metals. At UK buy prices that's only £54,000 per month of raw product. Product which is labour/machinery intensive, and lower margin/high waste stream to boot. You can't be a jack of all trades unless you're really going large scale and can afford to stream your operation.
Cost each different part of the business and build up a more complete picture. Don't be scared to vet the people you rely upon for advice before you start laying out money. Hearing what you want to hear from someone is worthless compared to hearing the frank truth from people who can show and prove that they have walked the walk. Talk is cheap.
Jon
Edit for grammar.
patnor1011
Well-known member
It was mentioned here several times over that recycling or recovery operations do make a bulk of their profit from metals (mostly non-ferrous) and plastics. Whatever precious metals or high-grade material is encountered is just icing on a cake.
That company you are puzzled about - they do good, getting 1200 tons of waste where let's say about 10% of that volume could be the copper. That means they get 120 tons worth of copper which is about 700,000$.
Focusing on precious metals is quite common mistake or misconception, I would say a symptom of gold fever :mrgreen: (no offense intended). In this kind of operation precious metals should be treated as a bonus and not primary goal otherwise you will end up spending dollars chasing around pennies.
Here is similarly sized operation I visited several times. I was exactly like you when the owner gave me a tour, I was interested in boxes of pins or gold plated material and he was just laughing. He took me to containers with copper, aluminium, iron, steel and told me this is where money is and he was right. To be honest, he accumulates quite an amount of high-grade material like various gold plated connectors, CPU's, ram.... but as I said that is just a bonus and not what makes him the most of the money in day to day operations.
Mute sound as music there is annoying.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_uG64H_3Y[/youtube]
That company you are puzzled about - they do good, getting 1200 tons of waste where let's say about 10% of that volume could be the copper. That means they get 120 tons worth of copper which is about 700,000$.
Focusing on precious metals is quite common mistake or misconception, I would say a symptom of gold fever :mrgreen: (no offense intended). In this kind of operation precious metals should be treated as a bonus and not primary goal otherwise you will end up spending dollars chasing around pennies.
Here is similarly sized operation I visited several times. I was exactly like you when the owner gave me a tour, I was interested in boxes of pins or gold plated material and he was just laughing. He took me to containers with copper, aluminium, iron, steel and told me this is where money is and he was right. To be honest, he accumulates quite an amount of high-grade material like various gold plated connectors, CPU's, ram.... but as I said that is just a bonus and not what makes him the most of the money in day to day operations.
Mute sound as music there is annoying.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_uG64H_3Y[/youtube]
I agree with Pat 100% with one slight addition. The steel, aluminum and copper are also commodities whose prices are posted per pound daily, sure there are grades but it is relatively easy to grade the base metals and be paid consistently.
Now take a bucket full of gold plated pins, not refined. You could take that bucket to 10 different refineries and get 10 different payouts because if you don't know what's there, shame on you. That is why we stress putting the material into a homogeneous form so you can sample before shipping or better yet refine yourself. Then you take the question mark off the high value metals and get paid fairly.
While there are big dollars in the non precious, there is no sense in getting less than you deserve for the metals that are harder to quantify.
Now take a bucket full of gold plated pins, not refined. You could take that bucket to 10 different refineries and get 10 different payouts because if you don't know what's there, shame on you. That is why we stress putting the material into a homogeneous form so you can sample before shipping or better yet refine yourself. Then you take the question mark off the high value metals and get paid fairly.
While there are big dollars in the non precious, there is no sense in getting less than you deserve for the metals that are harder to quantify.
