liquid gold?

[pazsion]

After googling around for things that could be at hand to use to break down gold pins from a cpu, I tried lysol's version of drano...Knowing it contains hydrochloric acid.

After a while it did work despite others claiming it would not...Ram fingers seem to have dissolved. After about a month, the solution lost it's acidic scent, and became more like oxidized iron. So i began panning it out... The ammount of gold flake recovered did not seem to match up with what was removed... so i looked at the remaining water and drano mixes i was left with. It was yellow in color. So i let it sit in various stages of dilution, into water. Eventually all the yellow settled down to the bottom...you could stir it up and it would sink quickly. Letting the water evaporate leaves a film with gold flakes...re-hydrateing and evaporation results in more and more gold flake being released. So far this has not worked on printer cables etc. Again fingers that connect to the board, easily dissolve. I'm guessing cause of the silver/copper or iron used to aid in plateing, breaks down.

Is this essentially liquid gold?

What items that could be available at hand, or easily obtained that is safer to handle then straight chemicals could be used to coagulate the gold...precipitating is the wrong terminology....

Is it possible to just heat this goo, and have it return to a state that is more gold then goo?

The pins from the cpu, are magnetic...so i'm using a magnet as well in hopes that it will help leech out the other metals. And break up the gold on it's way out... Some gold seems to have broken off, but they appear to still be maintaining it's bond. And are still gold in color. Only small specs are observed suspended in the liquid. I've removed the pins and rinsed them, then panned out the specks to get a better idea on how things are going...It's working but slowly...and seems to be losing it's effectiveness at this point. I'm wondering if the remaining material is even gold. it's yellow, not oxidizing...or otherwise breaking down, and remains highly magnetic...the center is grey....oxidizes, but also doesn't seem to be breaking down any more...

I'm toying with idea's right now...using phosphoric acid, from coke, and sulfuric acid... in the 50/50 drano mix. tonight.

Please if you know of any helpful threads, direct me there...Most threads i find in search have not been helpful. I don't know how or where you guys obtain nitric acid or hydrochloric acid...But i might have to break away from the safer options to obtain a better result.

 

[Anonymous]

Who's gonna take this one? You guys remember who we are,and what we represent,before unloading on him.It soulds like he needs more help than anyone has needed in a long time(except maybe the urinating guy :mrgreen: ).

 

[pazsion]

i'm reeading this post now, seems to touch on some of the stuff i asked about...thought you'd like to know where i'm at on the thought processes...and reading...so you don't end up reposting threads i may have read already...

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14154


Yea, i'm asking for help...in something i can come back to that isn't scattered across hundreds of pages. There should be no unloading or rageing...thank you.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

I think people are going to misunderstand you because, at least to me, it sounds like you are using the wrong words to describe what you are experiencing.

Instead of trying to teach you the correct terms, I am going to describe what I think might have happened.

You are trying to recover the gold plating off fingerboards if I understand what you are saying. It sounds like you immersed your finger boards in some type of hydrochloric acid solution, which sounds like it was some form of Liquid Drano.

If you put your fingerboards in a hydrochloric acid solution it's very likely that the HCl was able to start dissolving the base metals from the side of the gold plate, meaning UNDER the gold plate. If this is true then once the base metal has been dissolved, the gold should foil off.

I think that the gold color you are seeing is actually very fine gold flake and not actually dissolved in solution. I believe this to be the case because when gold is dissolved into solution, if it was Auric Chloride without other metals dissolved into solution, then you would have a rich gold colored solution you could see through. But what you are describing doesn't sound like that at all. You stated that once you stirred it up, you could see gold flake, gold particles, etc.

If you dissolved gold into solution, you would need to precipitate it out of solution somehow, you didn't say anything about using a precipitant, you did mention though that you added fluid, evaporated fluid, etc. If the gold was defoiled into small pieces, then it would simply dry as fine gold flake that might be in such small pieces that it would be difficult to see individual pieces. When you use the term liquid gold, I am assuming you mean Auric Chloride, you can only get Auric Chloride if you dissolved gold into solution, which it sounds like you have not done.

So the gold color you see when you are stirring up your solution, is gold foil, just very small. That could be because the base metals were eaten very slowly which could have made very fine pieces of gold foil/flake.

In any case, the more you play around with your solution, the more likely it is you are loosing values.

If I were you, I would stop whatever it is you are doing and download a copy of Hoke, and read it if you have not already. If you read Hoke, you will understand the correct terms to use when attempting to describe what is happening. Also, you would understand why HCl alone will not dissolve your gold foils.

Scott

 

[tek4g63]

Why did you decide to use drano type stuff for your hydrochloric acid? There is a high likely hood that the drain cleaner has other additives in it and they will cause you troubles. Plus I can't believe the drain cleaner would be less expensive than muriatic acid. Muriatic acid is what most of us hobby refiners use. It can be purchased at the home depot, lowes, pool supply places, and even some wal-marts for less than $ 8 a gallon. Typically it is between 28 and 32% hydrochloric acid.

Like stated above though, read and study before you try all of this again, you will be glad you did. Do a search on the forum for AP it is a good process to learn on.

Sorry I couldn't help with your current situation but I'm sure a more experienced member than my self will be along shortly. Good luck!

 

[Harold_V]

Yea, i'm asking for help...in something i can come back to that isn't scattered across hundreds of pages. There should be no unloading or rageing...thank you.

The help you need appears to me to be the very thing you are resisting. It is very important for you to stop what you're doing and start reading. No one is going to be able to make you understand what you should or should not be doing because you don't understand what constitutes the right thing, and can't describe it if you do.

The project you have undertaken requires that you know a few things. It's like you're an infant, and you must learn to run. Before you can do that, you must learn to crawl, then walk. Do you understand that concept? If not, why would you assume that you can refine gold if you don't know how it's done?

Do yourself a favor. Put your project on hold, and start reading the forum, along with Hoke's book. Read them until you fully understand what you *should* be doing, and try to forget the things you *think* you should be doing. If you've come here without the proper knowledge, you have several things against you at the outset, and you're just going to get yourself in hot water with readers by not paying attention to what you've been advised to do.

Trust me on this one. If you do not show incentive to learn what you must know, your stay here will be brief. We insist that new readers do their homework in getting up to speed on the terminology we all use---and to have a firm understanding of the processes involved in recovering and purifying gold. We do not teach these things on an individual basis---we simply help when a person hits a wall. Otherwise those of us who try to help are answering the same questions day in and day out, with no one learning a damned thing.

Harold

 

[butcher]

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/US%20-%20Lysol%20No%20Mess%20Automatic%20TBC.pdf
I am not sure what product you used but it sounds like a dangerous gamble to me.

Chemistry and metals can get very dangerous, if not done properly with understanding.

You cannot just mix any store bought chemical (even if it contains an acid you need), some combinations of chemicals and metals could just actually blow up in your face in a portion of your process.

Taking the advice you were given will get you on a path of learning, what works and what does not and why, it is a long learning process, that there seems no end to as long as you keep an interest in this field.

Hoke's book as suggested is only the first step a very important one, it gives you the general understanding, and gets you acquainted (follow her instructions, this book is like a good movie, you learn something new every time you read it.

Gold and these metals are valuable especially in hard times we face, so why mess around taking chances of hurting your self and others by wasting your time and metals, when your time can be spent learning to do this safely and to gain precious metals that can help you get through hard times.

If I were you I would listen to this great group of people, learn as much as you can, follow their good instructions, not be smart and not experiment with what you think might work, but learn what does.

Buckle down to a good book, and study hard we want to see you melting pure gold, we do not want to hear you are in a hospital bed (or worse) from doing something stupid.

Get Hokes, and get gold.
Study safety, and dealing with waste.
After studying when you get an understanding of the processes, then you can begin to use acids, and if you have done your homework, you will recover and refine some nice metals.

While studying it is a good time to acquire scrap to process later, get the supplies you will need, and gain understanding of the processes.

I hope to see your gold buttons in the gallery section, but it takes patience, and hard work studying, that is the answer you are seeking, the sooner you crack the book, the closer you will be to melting that pure gold.

 

[Anonymous]

Pazsion I hope you take what everyone has said with humility,and determination to learn.It won't take long to learn what you need to know.On that note,I have a quick story for you......
Some years back,I was having difficulty locating Nitric acid.Instead of using the safe path and ordering it directly I chose to do hours upon hours of research,until I found a product that contained a large percentage of it,and was dirt cheap.So I chose to buy several gallons of the product,and went to work.In my haste,I had not taken into considerationt that the product also contained a large percentage of surfactants.Upon using it,I created an exothermic reaction,and the solution boiled uncontrollably,and deposited gold laden "suds" over a small portion of my property.I had to dump large amounts of water,and bicarb,on my property to neutralize the acid,and of course lost all of the gold.
Learn to walk first.We will be here to help pick you up if you stumble.

 

[pazsion]

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/Lysol-Brand-Disinfectant-Power-Toilet-Bowl-Cleaner-US-English.pdf

this one xD

Much thanks for your excellent thoughtful and thorough replies, obviously i'm stumbleing. I've read various articles and books by Hoke...the ones i found or were linked to were obviously incomplete. And mostly aimed at melting and pureifying it. I've always shyed away from the chemical approach. It's just not safe and sometimes unpredictable. The thought of not being able to care for myself or others is both good reason to find a quicker way...And to make sure i'm doing it right to begin with.

I just remembered we have 2 1/2 gallons of muriatic acid. Historically called muriatic acid, and spirits of salt, hydrochloric acid was produced from vitriol (sulfuric acid) and common salt. <copied from wiki, i'm not gonna play smart when i know very little, but not nothing, always give credit where it's due...> My fool brother claimed it is used to kill weeds...just a few drops of the stuff killed a 3 foot by 3 foot swath of grass i had just planted....All he said was "whoops"/// So now i have it stashed away....Keeping it away from children no matter how old they are. I feel i have a solid idea of how to use it to break down gold, from the other metals used in CPU's etc. Hydrochloric acid alone will do it. Or should.

I really don't like the idea of nitric acid...It's crazy oxidation risk...powerful acid...And i WANT to preserve as much metal as i can...at least be recoverable in some form that can be sold or reconstituted, into a more pure form of it's former self...particularly silver...nickel and copper.

I am willing to learn, I'm looking for someone or a group willing to teach. Repeating the things you told other people...is part of that. I do it everyday and i don't complain one bit. Even if the person is seemingly not absorbing any of the information given to them. Not everyone learns the same way. I suck at math. And i'm very ignorant towards it...never had a use for it until i needed to be extreamly accurate or partition fluids appropriately....cooking...Now i try to learn as much as i can about what i need to know to apply to various things...I still hate it, it's slow as hell...and even though i have multiplied millions of times, i still get it wrong. 90% of the time =c

I have no money, and no means of making money. except for this. And finding e-scrap and processing it in a neighborhood that looks at it as a distasteful pile of trash, even if its 3-4 computers a week...I get stiff resistance from friends and family who do not understand what i'm doing and the value and environmental impacts it has. I need a place to talk about it...not just read about it.


So far I don't see anything wrong with the steps taken in my process or chemical's used. I'm just stuck and stumbleing and i don't want to toy around with anything that i am un familiar with.

The gold pins and printer cables and printer cartridges don't seem to want to let go of certain parts of their gold elements And i'm not sure why. Now that we have more details about the chemicals...Please fill me in on if it would cause problems, or prevent recovery in any way. Of course i will let things be as they are, And let it do it's job as is. It's working. I'll start something else along side this Later after we talk quite a bit...

I don't have a lot of gold anything, I'm trying to learn it well before i get anything significant, Better to mess up a little then a whole lot. So I am most concerned about value loss. Another reason i don't want to use nitric acid. Unless absolutely needed. Finding e-scrap of any kind is hard around here.

 

[goldsilverpro]

If you aren't willing to use dangerous chemicals, you may as well forget it. The trick is to use them in a safe manner. Nitric is the #1 chemical in real refining. You must use it if you want to succeed in this. There are alternatives, but they are definitely inferior.

 

[pazsion]

Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??

 

[pazsion]

Didn't say i wasn't willing....Nor could i just give up on the idea.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??

SMB = Sodium Metabisulfite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_metabisulfite

Please, before you go any further, read Hoke, read it in it's entirety, then read it again. Read the forum, follow the threads that pertain to what it is you want to do, there is a wealth of information on this forum. More than any one person could possibly accumulate on their own. There must be hundreds and hundreds of years of combined experience, all here for you and everyone else to learn from.

This is why so many of us are telling you to read Hoke, and the forum, so you understand the terms used to explain the different steps in the procedures used to recover and refine precious metals. I don't mean to harp, I was new not long ago and still fairly new as of now, so I understand. But if you have to keep asking questions about things you can easily read on your own, instead of asking and reading on the forum, then we are going to become frustrated, you will end up frustrated, and people will stop answering your questions.

You have to get up and start walking before we can lead you to the river and teach you to fish.

Download this, and if you need a copy of the book, in hard cover, I have an extra one I can sell you...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2815953/Refining-Precious-Metal-Wastes-C-M-Hoke

Scott

 

[Anonymous]

Using acronyms in guides and forum posts, defeats the purpose....what is SMB??

We have a system here.If you need to ask what an acronym means,that is completly understandable......however,telling us that it "defeats the purpose" is not a good way to start.Most of us have been doing this for many years,a few members have owned refineries for 30+ years.
Which would you rather type....SMB,or Sodium Metabisulphite?

I am willing to learn,

If you want to learn from us,then it will be on our terms,not "your" terms below,

I'm looking for someone or a group willing to teach. Repeating the things you told other people...is part of that. I do it everyday and i don't complain one bit.

If you want to learn a safe,and correct method of recovering,and refining PM's(precious metals),then you can learn that here.But noone is going to spoon feed you what you need to know.And if you persist this style of thinking,you will find yourself on the wrong side of a moderator real fast.

 

[qst42know]

I've read various articles and books by Hoke...

Name one article you have read written by Hoke. Show me the link.

 

[butcher]

What scares me about the HCl drain cleaner you posted the MSDS on is the alcohols (organics), and the ammines (which to me means ammonia type compound's), what you have been working with sounds more dangerous to me than working with nitric acid properly.


I understand you're new and are excited to learn, and all of here will gladly help you as long as you do your part, we are all trying to help you more than you understand, your going the wrong way and this troop is all yelling at you trying to get your attention and point you in the right direction, but as long as you are stubborn and try to go the wrong way we cannot help, the Muriatic acid you had stored is what you needed notthat drain cleaner.

You say you're counting on getting money from recovering and refining to support yourself, well I have to say that unless you had tons of free electronic scrap and the understanding to process it, I do not think you can make enough to feed yourself much less anything else, especially when just beginning the learning process, I feel counting on this for a living at this stage would be a big mistake, I hate to say this but your family and friends are giving you good advice, and the dangers and environmental impacts they are also correct about (but if you learn to do this properly it can be done safely and environmental friendly, the forum will help you learn how). There really is not that much gold in the electronic scrap, and it takes a lot of time to process, also learning it takes time before you gain enough understanding to process the material efficiently, and unless you have access to an awful lot of free scrap or relatively free material the time and trouble will not give you much money, also if you cannot get tons of this stuff for just about or free, then you will have to purchase the materials, again a learning curve that can cost money in mistakes made while learning, If I were you I would start studying, this if it what you wish to learn, after gaining some understanding under your belt you can process material in your spare time, but I would focus on some other way to make money, a job, starting my own business, or whatever I had to do, take a little of that money after you learn to process these metals and work with higher value scrap like sterling and karat gold, learn testing and the simple math in calculating value's of these metals, you could do well buying and selling scrap, doing this and refining part time when you were not working at some other job you could do fairly well for yourself, if you took time to study and understood the things you need to succeed, I do not say these thing to discourage you, it is the reality I see from working with electronic scrap.

I wish you the best, my advice crack that Hoke's book and find some way to make a living if you cannot find a job make a job and start your own business or whatever you have to do, where there is the will there is a way (just sometimes it is not the way, you think or wish it was), and if you do this the forum members here (your new friends), will help you learn refining, and the forum will teach you just about anything you can think of when dealing with precious metals, and how to profit from them.

editted add word I meant to use.

 

[Geo]

dissolved metals + ammonia = bomb.

 

[qst42know]

Skip the BS.

You will lose it all if you don't do your home work.

 

[Harold_V]

Skip the BS.

You will lose it all if you don't do your home work.

It's worse than that. I'm at the end of my rope with guys that come here and demand they be told what they want to hear instead of what they NEED to hear. There's a big difference, and the difference spells whether we spend out time constructively and the reader benefits, or not.

I get the idea that pazsion is seeking those who might agree with his misguided notions, and ignores anything that might be good and useful, because it's not what he wants to hear. I see a bleak future for him on this forum.

Clearly, no one is going to tell this individual how to process the material in question. What we will do is steer him in the direction where he can learn to do so, and gain knowledge of the language that pertains to the operations, all the while learning more about safety and proper procedures beyond the actual refining. That isn't an option, it's mandatory, assuming he expects anything from this forum.

If there are further demands made, with a disregard for listening to the admonition to start studying, I'm going to put an end to this issue by banning the reader. I do not like the attitude I see, nor am I going to learn to like the attitude I see. It sets a bad example for others.

So far I don't see anything wrong with the steps taken in my process or chemical's used. I'm just stuck and stumbleing and i don't want to toy around with anything that i am un familiar with.

Sigh! And yet you pursue your idiotic notions with reckless abandon, some of which may do great harm to either you or the environment, all the while ignoring everything that is known to work?
pazsion-----get on with reading Hoke's book, and don't ask more questions until you have a basic understanding. If you find Hoke's work to be less than helpful, you are clearly out of your environment and will struggle endlessly.

You have wasted more than enough of my time on this issue. Put your combative attitude to rest immediately, and read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches, then read it again. Mean time, lose the notion that you will re-invent the wheel. Much better qualified people have gone before you and have not done so. What the hell makes you think you can?

Harold

 

[Lobby]

Hmmm.

Every time I've read a Drano label, all I've seen is NaOH, not HCl....