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jwlrymkr said:
I've used Elemental in the past. I've taken 14k plumb into them and have never gotten better than 52% on what should have been 58.5% That said, most of the gold buyers around here are only paying about 65-70% of spot off the street, so they can afford to absorb some losses I suppose.
Isn't 14k = 58.3%? And with the rules of how far from 14k you are allowed to go in USA I think you have to take off another 1/2k right at start and another 1/2k if there is soldering done on a piece. This puts you down closer to 54.2% gold. And this isn't counting springs, stones or other non-gold parts.

How do you know that it was 14k plumb?

If my memory is wrong then I'm sure someone is going to correct me quite fast.

Göran
 
I don't get "plumb" any more than marking it "14k".

This is America, not Great Britain. I imagine in Great Britain the queen herself beheads you for fraudulent hallmark activity, in America we hand out golden parachutes for fraud. Karat of said parachute is unknown.

But seriously, I can buy a 14kp stamp for $20.


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snoman701 said:
I don't get "plumb" any more than marking it "14k".

This is America, not Great Britain. I imagine in Great Britain the queen herself beheads you for fraudulent hallmark activity, in America we hand out golden parachutes for fraud. Karat of said parachute is unknown.

But seriously, I can buy a 14kp stamp for $20.


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Not quite that bad but you can be prosecuted for selling below plumb materials.
I think a good knowledge of acid testing is needed with plenty of practice behind it to buy scrap with confidence if you can’t afford an xrf as the rules in the USA are much more relaxed than in the UK, they will not mark an item if it’s 582 as 14k but as 9k whereas in the USA you are allowed 1/2 karat leeway and it can be called or marked 14k.
 
Actually, the regulations in the U.S. have changed. They used to allow up to a half karat under the stamped value for a cast or solid piece. There was an additional half karat allowance if the piece contained solder. The cast or solid portion still had to be within a half karat of the stamped value, but the total allowance for the entire item was up to one karat below stamped value.

The regulations were amended in 1976 to allow only 3 one-thousandths deviation on the solid portion and 7 one-thousandths on the entire piece. These changes became effective in 1981.

There are two problems. When they first became effective, some manufacturers, proud that they were complying with the new regulations, started stamping their wares with a "P", such as 14KP. But there was no requirement to do this, so some just continued to use their old 14K stamps. Now, over 35 years later, if you're buying old jewelry, there is no way to know if the piece was made before or after the changes.

The other problem, as snoman pointed out, is that anyone can buy a 14K, or 14KP, or any other stamp, turn out inferior pieces, and stamp them themselves. Of course there are penalties if someone is caught, but there is no effective enforcement on the little guys.

As Nick said, the only safe bet is to learn to test.

Dave
 
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jwlrymkr said:
I've used Elemental in the past. I've taken 14k plumb into them and have never gotten better than 52% on what should have been 58.5% That said, most of the gold buyers around here are only paying about 65-70% of spot off the street, so they can afford to absorb some losses I suppose.
How did you know it was plumb? I've been dealing with karat scrap for 50 years and can't remember ever seeing any that was truly plumb, based on well over 1000 lots that were fire assayed and/or refined. Either the alloying was done by you or you ran a triplicate fire assay after, preferably, pin sampling in an induction furnace. I can't think of any other way you would absolutely know it was plumb, unless you are a superb refiner and you refined it yourself. Certainly not by XRF or a touchstone.

52% is 12.5K and that is quite excessive. As a jeweler, I'm surprised you let it go that cheap. About the only karat gold I've seen that was actually that underkarated was a big batch of 10K class rings made by, at that time, the largest class ring manufacturer in the US.
 
Whoa, I've been working on my website fora couple long days and missed this whole part of the conversation...

@jwlrmkr - 52.5% !!! Man, I was excited to hear about Elemental. High rates, same day payout (I think I remember that), and close to home. But now you're telling me you've been losing 6%. That's crazy.

And I totally agree with snoman701. I'm not in business to "absorb" losses like that. I pay the highest I'm comfortable paying, knowing the numbers on both ends. If the payout for me doesn't add up like it should, then I'm not happy.

And now, of course, I have no way of knowing whether they are truly worth the time, or this is some kind of fluke.

@Palladium - So you just mean: weigh each group of items (grouped by karat). Then multiply by .583, .417, or whatever. Right? Or is there some more complex way that I need to calculate the amount of expected yield?

I am supposed to be calculating the total yield (weight of pure gold content) right? Or am i supposed to do some crazy numbers and figure out the average karat of the whole pile melted together?
 
To keep it simple as you buy whatever karat scrap it is put it into a marked box or bag and when you decide it’s time to sell weigh each karat and multiply by it’s expected percentage gold, that will give you a figure that you can then adjust by say 1/2 karat to be fair to your buyer, personally I would melt the scrap myself and make sure it was well mixed by stirring several times when molten, pour the bar and let it cool and then drill top and bottom of the bar at different ends and keep that sample, this makes buyers more careful on their dealings as they know you have a sample that should be representative of the bar, if the figures are way off you can always have an assay done or take the bar to another buyer.
 
Okay, that's what I figured. So, instead of multiplying by .417, .583, and .916...

I should instead multiply by .396, .562, .895 ? (by removing .021 for 1/2 karat)

I'm supposed to be lumping all the gold together when I melt it, though, right?

So when they hit it with an XRF, they're telling me what they expect it to yield. I already have a number and it shouldn't be below that if i tested everything properly.

But then if you lump it all together, how did jwlrmkr (user) calculate what karat they actually paid him? It must be that he meant on a 14K only load, right?

Thanks for leading me through this. I really appreciate the help. I generally don't like putting ignorance on display, but I used to be suspicious about previous melts at previous refineries, because I had a pretty good idea of what they should yield. So this will help me be more constant and pay clients better.
 
Yep melt it all together but don’t forget to stir the melt well and do take some drill samples as I said it makes buyers more cautious should they think of ripping you off, not all do but obviously there are some that do.
If you deal in big quantities then have an actual assay done that way you can be sure of your figures.
If you do melt the material yourself then keep all the fluxes as there will be some values in them and once your crucibles are nearing their life’s end melt some silver in them, this will remove any gold you left behind, keep using the same silver and at some point you can recover the gold.
 
If you just want high rate fast payment (ach available) on the gold that is actually there, follow up with Lou on his buyer.


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At this point, I'm talking about them melting it together. They melt it and then take xrf, right?

If so, then the XRF is where I'm waiting to compare numbers with their result.

Somebody else mentioned that "home melting" idea too (actually I've seen it mentioned here a few times by now). How much does a home sized system cost? Got a link so I can see a pic?
 
Be patient, Lou is a really busy man and can take a while to answer a pm.

Göran
 
No problem. Just wasn't sure if it was working or not. Figured on a fast response because of his post.

So what's the deal with that home melting system? Anybody have a model i can google? or a link, or something?
 
You can build your own set up for about $100 - $150 or there abouts, you need light weight fire bricks, probably about 20, a propane bottle and a lance set up , a crucible , a mould and some tongs to lift the crucible, oh I forgot a bottle of wd40 to spray the mould.
 
Okay, I like DIY. I built my house (or re-built it, actually). But I'm not macGyver. I need instructions. I can google it, but what are we calling this setup? Fill in the blank so i can look it up, partner.

Thanks.
 
Putting it all together, you'll have trouble beating the price of one of these for a reliable melting system.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-KG-Gold-Digital-Melting-Machine-Furnace-Kiln-110V-Refining-Gold-Silver-2102-F/391800390843?epid=928273591&hash=item5b391f84bb:g:pJQAAOSwW9ZZcHvb

You can no doubt do it cheaper, but I'm pretty uncoordinated....I don't want to be fussing with torches and other such while I'm trying to pour a few grand in gold.

You'll also need anhydrous borax and lime. www.axner.com for those.

And a cast iron ingot mold. ebay, amazon, lmine.com etc

and graphite stirring rods, carbon arc rods via ebay
 
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