Electrochemistry newly set up sulphuric cell not working

[futurama140]

SO i've just set up my first sulphuric cell, i've done a lot of reading, and am grasping the process, but my knowledge it seems is inadequate yet.

-I'm using an unknown concentration of sulphuric acid for car batteries (see picture)
-I have no copper mesh so i've made a basket out of uncoated copper wire
-the charger i'm using is in the picture. we just bought a 10amp charger, but as it is automatic, it's not working right.
-i'm collecting lead for a cathode, but until then i am using a stainless steel knife, as i have been told works as a substitute.
-i made sure the basket is below the cathode

the problem is, from what i understand, the basket of gold pins should be "foaming" or bubbling, yet only the cathode does. the exposed kovar of the pins is oxidizing, as well as a brown sludge forming on the cathode, but the gold seems to be untouched. Does anyone have any ideas or such on why this isnt working?

note: i have changed the level of submersion of both the anode and cathode and it doesnt seem to make a difference.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

-I'm using an unknown concentration of sulphuric acid for car batteries (see picture)

Car battery acid is only around 30-35%. Using dilute acid is the reason it's turning blue as it is dissolving the copper.

-the charger i'm using is in the picture. we just bought a 10amp charger, but as it is automatic, it's not working right.

That's because it's an automatic charger. You need a manual charger.

-i'm collecting lead for a cathode, but until then i am using a stainless steel knife, as i have been told works as a substitute.

I don't know who told you that, but they were wrong.

Stop before you hurt yourself! Jumping into these processes without doing sufficient research makes dangerous processes extremely dangerous. If you don't have a year or two to devote to studying, you should find something different to occupy your time. I devoted a fair amount of effort toward trying to get you off to a good start, but I'm questioning whether it was time well spent. These are all simply, obvious mistakes.

Dave

 

[Geo]

The problem is simple. You are using diluted sulfuric acid. The stripping cell has to have concentrated sulfuric acid to work properly. At least 96% concentrated. If you can't source concentrated sulfuric acid, try Liquid Fire drain opener. When using drain opener, make sure it says concentrated sulfuric acid on the label. There are other brands but just make certain that the label lists concentrated sulfuric as the main ingredient.

 

[Geo]

And what Dave said. Concentrated sulfuric acid is no joke. It can cause a life changing incident in a heartbeat. Permanent blindness if it splashes in your eyes for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid

edited to add link

 

[futurama140]

i am now using a 1 amp 12v manual charger, as i showed in the picture.
i am boiling down the sulphuric to concentrate it now,
and am hunting for the lead to make the cathode, which probably wont happen until the sulphuric is boiling down.

thanks for the tip on the drain cleaner. it was hard as hell to get just the battery acid. luckily, i can concentrate and purify the acid from some old batteries as well.

 

[Geo]

When the acid concentrates to 96%, it starts to fume. This fume is hydrogen sulfide gas. It is so much more dangerous to your health than liquid sulfuric acid. It needs to be evaporated slowly so please, no boiling. Just heat it until it steams and leave it alone. Check the starting volume. Battery electrolyte is generally 30% sulfuric acid by volume. Slow down the evaporation by turning down the heat when the volume is reduced by two thirds. 90ml's reduced to 30ml's. The further it is reduced, the more you should lower the temp. I am giving you a personal fair warning, do not breath the steam or the fumes from evaporating sulfuric acid or you will be coughing up blood for the next few days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid

 

[anachronism]

I'm with Geo on this.

Either do it properly or don't do it at all. Are you doing this in a fume extractor with full face protection?

Google "Katie Piper" to see what happens - and that stuff wasn't even hot like it is in a cell.

Personally I prefer to work with cyanide than this stuff.

 

[futurama140]

I have a fume hood, I have safety goggles, but no full face shield yet. I have the dilute acid now in a glass coffee carafe in an old coffee maker to heat it. I am not going to boil it, i can wait for the slower reduction on lower heat, it seems much safer. I've talked to a few people who have successfully used stainless steel for a cathode, but y'all tell me not to use it, so I will produce a lead cathode now.

I'm reading Hoke's book and other sources of information such as here, but it really leaks out of my mind until i get some hands on experience.

Is there a reason I have to use lead as a cathode?

 

[g_axelsson]

When the acid concentrates to 96%, it starts to fume. This fume is hydrogen sulfide gas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid

Are you sure? I would think it should form SO₃ + H₂O when fuming, recombining and forming a mist of concentrated acid. Still it's really nasty as it attacks lungs and any moist surface, for example your eyes, giving rise to chemical burns. But not acutely toxic as H₂S is.

Göran

 

[goldsilverpro]

The dense, abundant, copius white fumes are definitely SO3, sulfur trioxide. Very bad to breathe.

I would try to find some strong (say 90+%) sulfuric for sale, rather than cook down weak sulfuric. Much, much, much safer.

 

[Shark]

As Geo mentioned, Liquid Fire can be bought at most hardware stores as a drain cleaner. You can find Clean Shot at Lowe's. You can find Rooto brand in many hardware stores including Ace Hardware. I once tried to reduce battery acid and will never try that again as long as I can find sulfuric already at the strength of the mentioned drain cleaners. The risk just isn't worth it.

 

[Geo]

Sorry about that. I was typing faster than I was thinking. I meant to check that before posting but it slipped past me. But hey, that's what you guys are for. :lol:

 

[futurama140]

thanks, people, that's the practical info that actually has value. I get so sick of refering back to a textbook every thirty seconds because the knowledge is just too esoteric to memorize without knowing practicalities like where to find approximations of highly useful chemicals. reagent quality chemicals are not in my time schedule or budget, and i cant learn without doing, so by telling me what info was really helpful to do the process, you have effectively been able to teach me very much. thanks.

*edited for a freak word replacement*

 

[Barren Realms 007]

thanks, people, that's the practical info that actually has value. I get so sick of refering back to a textbook every thirty seconds because the knowledge is just too esoteric to memorize without knowing practicalities like where to find approximations of highly useful chemicals. reagent quality chemicals are not in my time schedule or budget, and i cant learn without doing, so by telling me what info was really helpful to do the process, you have effectively been able to teach me very much. thanks.

*edited for a freak word replacement*

You really need to develope some patience and read up on a subject to learn what you are doing before you hurt yourself or someone else.

It looks like you are doing this in your garage or other closed in space. This can be very bad for you.

You have chemicals splashed/spilled over a lot of counter space. This is not good.

Please develope some patience and learn what you are doing.

 

[Shark]

thanks, people, that's the practical info that actually has value. I get so sick of refering back to a textbook every thirty seconds because the knowledge is just too esoteric to memorize without knowing practicalities like where to find approximations of highly useful chemicals. reagent quality chemicals are not in my time schedule or budget, and i cant learn without doing, so by telling me what info was really helpful to do the process, you have effectively been able to teach me very much. thanks.

*edited for a freak word replacement*

For refining, Hoke's work is one of the least esoteric texts I have ever read. A few minutes a day with a chapter at a time is very easy to accomplish. And it will lead you a long way down the right path. With a very minimal search of the forum you would find some well documented cases of how others developed their cell. Some even included some very nice pictures. What I am getting at is the amount of knowledge on this forum can be staggering, but a great many of those "how to" type posts were not made by professional writers. They were well written by people with a drive to accomplish their goal. Besides, you deserve to think more highly of yourself as well. I am one of those who believe anyone can do anything, given the drive and willingness to try hard and study enough. Those esoteric texts were wrote by people who started at the bottom, they just found a way to climb above that beginning.

Barren makes a good point about those chemicals spilled on your work area. The above mentioned sulfuric drain cleaners, if spilled can and will burn wood. Very literally, it will turn wood black and charred. It will do the same damage to other materials as well, including human skin and flesh. Add heat, and the damage will increase many fold. Please be very careful if you use them, they are not weak battery acids.

Good Luck with your gold recovery and don't forget to show off the new button when it arrives.

 

[jason_recliner]

The dense, abundant, copius white fumes are definitely SO3, sulfur trioxide. Very bad to breathe.

I would try to find some strong (say 90+%) sulfuric for sale, rather than cook down weak sulfuric. Much, much, much safer.

^ Listen to this man. This same advice once may have saved me from killing myself.

I read once that 85+ might, just possibly, work. So I attempted a preliminary investigation using a small batch of roughly 78-80% that I'd concentrated from battery acid. That was as far as my courage permitted at the time, and this was before I had learned of the insidious nature of SO3 while evaporating H2SO4. I would not do it again without a proper lab (including the correct shaped glassware).

I am not too proud to confess that mine was a miserable, abject failure. Zero gold recovered. So be assured that you have utterly no hope with 30%. Learn from GSP's advice and my failure, so that your own won't kill you. There are easier ways to skin a cat, and better ways to die.

 

[futurama140]

Is "liquid heat" lye drain cleaner an adequate electrolyte for the process? I cannot find any of the brands mentioned here, nor could i find any drain cleaner around these parts which was not a lye drain cleaner.

*edited for incomplete thought

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Is "liquid heat" lye drain cleaner an adequate electrolyte for the process? I cannot find any of the brands mentioned here, nor could i find any drain cleaner around these parts which was not a lye drain cleaner.

*edited for incomplete thought

No that will not work. It needs to be sulphuric acid.

 

[futurama140]

i cannot source sulphuric acid in any other form than battery acid anywhere within a hundred miles, includsing drain cleaners with sulphuric. what other electrolytes can be used?

 

[jason_recliner]

There is no alternative for sulfuric acid in a sulfuric acid cell.

Some other alternatives for pins are nitric dissolution, which generally is overly expensive for the gain from pins, or copper II chloride "AP", which is cheap but you need patience. You will find how to do that everywhere.