Old Prospector Makes Good

[Nountaineer]

Per the bold print - not sure where you got placer from goldshark as he has clearly posted he is dealing with ore

From his OP ----------

And from another post ---------

And

And


You know a lot more about "ore" then I do goldshark - so I am just bringing this to your attention for clarification so that we are all talking on the same page in our effort to help Nountaineer out

At this point we just don't really have enough info to really help him out - sketchy info at best - so hopefully as this discussion continues he will be able to provide us with better info so that we can better help him

Kurt

I will try to be more concise. This deposit is World Class and produces it's own platinum paydirt from jarosite ore with 58 percent iron as magnetite in the massive crystal variety of this ore. I have millions of dollars in placer(loose) ore. To work with. There is black platinum crystals and metal in with the magnetite from this large deposit. This ore is unique as the 9.37 oz) gold /ton is not visible to the naked eye, the dressed one either. I am trying to raise cash to buy truck and trailer to haul this placer ore to the refinery in Utah, therefore need to process and sell some of it.

 

[Nountaineer]

I also wanted to add that "ore" is a mixture of minerals in a paying quantity. So placer concentrates are still considered "ore".

I am trying to clear up any confusion about the placer type of ore which is large chunks of 30 pounds or more with the normal type of placer sand and gravel mixed with it. It appears to me that gathering the large chunks and transporting it, is more efficient than processing the gravel part since it is so very rich. The x-ray identified 6 elements including cadmium, iron, gold, platinum and only a trace of silver and something else. I was sent a screenshot of the test results from the x-ray spectroscopy report but not sure which phone it is on.

 

[Nountaineer]

I have a 10kg furnace. Stacked 2 6kg crucibles in it and need to get the 10 kg size yet. I am waiting to get the furnace working at it's hottest temperature. I just got a 2700+ f infrared thermometer to monitor the adjustments. It goes up to 20 psi before red line so not sure of proper pressure and air adjustments. A heat gun is also necessary to preheat the propane.

 

[kurtak]

I also wanted to add that "ore" is a mixture of minerals in a paying quantity. So placer concentrates are still considered "ore".

Really - this one is new to me as in my 40 plus years of being around miners & mining (both hard rock/lode & placer) I have never so much as once heard of a placer miner refer to there concentrates as ore

Every placer miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refers to those concentrate as placer --- never - not once have I heard a placer miner say - "I need to clean up my ore concentrates"

Like wise - every hard rock miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refer to those concentrates as ore - never - not once have I heard a hard rock miner say - "I need to clean up my placer concentrates"

Technically I can not call myself "a miner" as I have never done any mining as a way of making a living - however I spend MUCH of my free time out prospecting - both placer & hard rock --- yes I keep hoping that one of these days I will run across that glory hole (placer) or mother load (hard rock) worth actually mining

As well - over the years I have worked with (help out) MANY of my miner friends (both placer & hard rock) in my spare time (week ends etc.) just because they are good friends & I find the whole mining thing so very interesting & great learning experience

In fact - today I am going to talk to one of my very good "placer" mining friends to discuss working with him on cleaning up the something like 4 or 5 - 55 gallon drums of his black sand "placer" concentrates he has saved up over the years of running his trommel --- we are good friends because he is a miner & I am a refiner & now that I am retired (from regular job) we are discussing working together on cleaning up his black sand "placer" concentrates

As well - I am talking with another friend that is a (now retired) hard rock miner - he has a couple 55 gallon drums of "ore" concentrates left over from when he retired (quite) mining & we are discussing working together to clean up his "ore" concentrates

I am not trying to be nitpicky &/or confrontational goldshark - it's just that in my 40 plus years of being around many miners & mining I never heard a placer miner refer to anything in their operation as ore nor have I ever heard a hard rock miner refer to anything in their operation as placer

So it's not that I disagree with you &/or trying to argue - I just have never heard a placer miner call their concentrates ore - & like wise never heard a hard rock miner call their concentrates placer

For what it is worth - I have been around miners & mining (both placer & hard rock) in the states of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho & Montana & as well have a very good friend (now retired) that was a professor/teacher at the University of Navada that taught mining/mining engineering & geology --- he owns a patented hard rock mine - a patented hard rock mill site - as well as several unpatented placer claims here in Oregon where I live --- when we talk mining it is ether placer as placer --- or hard rock as ore --- we spend a LOT of week ends at his cabin on his patented mill site Bar B-Qing & talking as well as Elk hunting together

So I find it interesting to hear you making reference to ore as placer - &/or reference to placer as ore

Kurt

 

[goldshark]

While I agree with you on all your points, you have probably never had the opportunity to deal with either the US Forest Service, or BLM, on an issue of wether your claim is valid, due to the marketability of your "ore". It is the Governments description of your values, as to wether or not it constitutes "ore, a composition of minerals which in it's whole, can be sold for a profit". It is the government's description, or interpretation, of what an "ore" is, not mine. This holds true on either a placer, or lode deposit.
Hoping we all learn something new everyday,
The Goldshark.

 

[goldshark]

Looking up Webster's definition of "ore", I quote; " A mineral containing a constituent for which it is mined and worked". It is a pretty broad term, but placer and it's concentrates still fall under its meaning. Miners of all kinds, have adopted terms that further define what they are processing into ore ( heads, pay dirt ), Middlings, Tails, over burden, concentrates ( apply to hard rock, as well as placer ) etc., just to name a few.

 

[Southfork]

Looking up Webster's definition of "ore", I quote; " A mineral containing a constituent for which it is mined and worked". It is a pretty broad term, but placer and it's concentrates still fall under its meaning. Miners of all kinds, have adopted terms that further define what they are processing into ore ( heads, pay dirt ), Middlings, Tails, over burden, concentrates ( apply to hard rock, as well as placer ) etc., just to name a few.

Interesting subject locally gold was mined as a placer from oxidized surface deposits in the area. Then conventional hard rock mining as the oxidized zones were depleted and they followed the veins. So, placer Ore? Here's a little more to digest.

How are Ores Formed?​

Ores are categorized by how they are formed. There are many different ways that ores are formed, each involving distinct chemical and physical processes. One such way is through the cooling of magma or lava, which forms igneous ores. The location of the magma (under the Earth's crust) or the lava (on the Earth's surface) determines the cooling time and therefore the physical properties of the resulting ore. This type of ore is usually where diamonds, copper, tin, silver, and mercury are found.

Sedimentary ore deposits are formed by the erosion of host rock, thereby exposing the ore. Aluminum deposits are found this way because it resists erosion better than their host rock. Therefore, when the host rock has been eroded, aluminum is found. Another way sedimentary rock can form ore is by significant deposition of ore minerals; if enough of one mineral is deposited in water, it can be considered ore, like bands of iron in sedimentary rock. These locations of deposited minerals are known as placers. Placers of gold in the rivers of California are what caused the gold rush of the 1840s? Metamorphic rock forms when other types of rock undergo intense heat and pressure, which causes the rock to partially melt. Metamorphic ore deposits form usually around hydrothermal vents and therefore are categorized as such.

 

[goldshark]

To be a little more specific on the terms you have given above, I, and the professional geologists would classify the above as mineral deposits. The guvmint has decided to adopt the terminology of the description that a mineral deposit is not considered ore, unless is can be marketed for a profit, at todays prices. This has brought forth the question, particularly when the guvmint agencies are trying to rid themselves of mining claim owners on BLM land, of the claim owner stating that it may become salable for profit, in the future.
To answer your question about placer ore, yes, it is still considered ore. It is broken down even further to rock in place, and rock which has been moved from its original place of formation. It is the subject of many mining lawsuits, and is accommodated in many Federal and State laws, pertaining to mining laws.

 

[goldshark]

All by x-ray spectroscopy and assay yield same results . General ore runs.03 percent for both. High grade has same gold but double the platinum. Super high grade has been panned only. Mine is a back yard operation to begin with to purchase a truck and trailer then haul it to the refinery in Utah. I want to learn how to extract the platinum group compounds and crystals for processing. I believe it also contains rhodium.

I am assuming that when you say "assay", you are referring to a fire assay? There are many types of assays, ICPs, AA, Fire, Bottle roll, Wet, Etc.. A fire assay should catch the PGMs, but unless you ask for the test, they will only do Au/Ag. The fire assay is, I feel, the best bang for the buck. Each analysis has its own advantages though.

 

[Justincase]

If you would like a proper dill and systematic analysis we could probably help.
Not to polish someone else's cherry but it is in my opinion a game changer servcie,
https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/about-us...cience-engineering/electron-microscopy-centre

 

[goldshark]

What is a dill? Besides a pickle, for which I am familiar. TEM or SEM?

 

[Nountaineer]

Really - this one is new to me as in my 40 plus years of being around miners & mining (both hard rock/lode & placer) I have never so much as once heard of a placer miner refer to there concentrates as ore

Every placer miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refers to those concentrate as placer --- never - not once have I heard a placer miner say - "I need to clean up my ore concentrates"

Like wise - every hard rock miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refer to those concentrates as ore - never - not once have I heard a hard rock miner say - "I need to clean up my placer concentrates"

Technically I can not call myself "a miner" as I have never done any mining as a way of making a living - however I spend MUCH of my free time out prospecting - both placer & hard rock --- yes I keep hoping that one of these days I will run across that glory hole (placer) or mother load (hard rock) worth actually mining

As well - over the years I have worked with (help out) MANY of my miner friends (both placer & hard rock) in my spare time (week ends etc.) just because they are good friends & I find the whole mining thing so very interesting & great learning experience

In fact - today I am going to talk to one of my very good "placer" mining friends to discuss working with him on cleaning up the something like 4 or 5 - 55 gallon drums of his black sand "placer" concentrates he has saved up over the years of running his trommel --- we are good friends because he is a miner & I am a refiner & now that I am retired (from regular job) we are discussing working together on cleaning up his black sand "placer" concentrates

As well - I am talking with another friend that is a (now retired) hard rock miner - he has a couple 55 gallon drums of "ore" concentrates left over from when he retired (quite) mining & we are discussing working together to clean up his "ore" concentrates

I am not trying to be nitpicky &/or confrontational goldshark - it's just that in my 40 plus years of being around many miners & mining I never heard a placer miner refer to anything in their operation as ore nor have I ever heard a hard rock miner refer to anything in their operation as placer

So it's not that I disagree with you &/or trying to argue - I just have never heard a placer miner call their concentrates ore - & like wise never heard a hard rock miner call their concentrates placer

For what it is worth - I have been around miners & mining (both placer & hard rock) in the states of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho & Montana & as well have a very good friend (now retired) that was a professor/teacher at the University of Navada that taught mining/mining engineering & geology --- he owns a patented hard rock mine - a patented hard rock mill site - as well as several unpatented placer claims here in Oregon where I live --- when we talk mining it is ether placer as placer --- or hard rock as ore --- we spend a LOT of week ends at his cabin on his patented mill site Bar B-Qing & talking as well as Elk hunting together

So I find it interesting to hear you making reference to ore as placer - &/or reference to placer as ore

Kurt

I am primarily a hard rock miner that found ore while learning to placer mine. Technically any loose ore from sand on up is considered placer. You can file over a load claim with no stream gravel present and placer mine all of their loose rock legally.

 

[goldshark]

If you are prospecting on a staked, legal lode claim, you are trespassing. At least when it comes to mining law. The general public may traverse an unpatented mining claim, but may not stop to prospect on that claim. Doing so can get you arrested by the Sheriff. Any body can file over any claim infintismally, but whomever has the lowest claim number has the first right to mine. Technically, If the rock is loose, but still in place, you will not be able to mine it legally. The legal description of placer is " mineral which has been displaced from it's original place of deposition". The law does not specifically state in feet.

Really - this one is new to me as in my 40 plus years of being around miners & mining (both hard rock/lode & placer) I have never so much as once heard of a placer miner refer to there concentrates as ore

Every placer miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refers to those concentrate as placer --- never - not once have I heard a placer miner say - "I need to clean up my ore concentrates"

Like wise - every hard rock miner that I know - when talking about cleaning up their concentrates refer to those concentrates as ore - never - not once have I heard a hard rock miner say - "I need to clean up my placer concentrates"

Technically I can not call myself "a miner" as I have never done any mining as a way of making a living - however I spend MUCH of my free time out prospecting - both placer & hard rock --- yes I keep hoping that one of these days I will run across that glory hole (placer) or mother load (hard rock) worth actually mining

As well - over the years I have worked with (help out) MANY of my miner friends (both placer & hard rock) in my spare time (week ends etc.) just because they are good friends & I find the whole mining thing so very interesting & great learning experience

In fact - today I am going to talk to one of my very good "placer" mining friends to discuss working with him on cleaning up the something like 4 or 5 - 55 gallon drums of his black sand "placer" concentrates he has saved up over the years of running his trommel --- we are good friends because he is a miner & I am a refiner & now that I am retired (from regular job) we are discussing working together on cleaning up his black sand "placer" concentrates

As well - I am talking with another friend that is a (now retired) hard rock miner - he has a couple 55 gallon drums of "ore" concentrates left over from when he retired (quite) mining & we are discussing working together to clean up his "ore" concentrates

I am not trying to be nitpicky &/or confrontational goldshark - it's just that in my 40 plus years of being around many miners & mining I never heard a placer miner refer to anything in their operation as ore nor have I ever heard a hard rock miner refer to anything in their operation as placer

So it's not that I disagree with you &/or trying to argue - I just have never heard a placer miner call their concentrates ore - & like wise never heard a hard rock miner call their concentrates placer

For what it is worth - I have been around miners & mining (both placer & hard rock) in the states of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho & Montana & as well have a very good friend (now retired) that was a professor/teacher at the University of Navada that taught mining/mining engineering & geology --- he owns a patented hard rock mine - a patented hard rock mill site - as well as several unpatented placer claims here in Oregon where I live --- when we talk mining it is ether placer as placer --- or hard rock as ore --- we spend a LOT of week ends at his cabin on his patented mill site Bar B-Qing & talking as well as Elk hunting together

So I find it interesting to hear you making reference to ore as placer - &/or reference to placer as ore

Kurt

Do a search on wikipedia for "ore".

 

[kurtak]

Do a search on wikipedia for "ore".

Hi goldshark - I actually did that several days ago I just have not had time to post more in this thread ( got side tracked) part of that getting side tracked was spending a LOT of time researching - what is ore - what is placer - & what is the difference between ore & placer

I am not sure what you are asking me to see in the Wiki article on "ore" - but - I will assume it is the reference to "sediments" which could be considered placer (such as gold in the loose gravel sediments in a river or creek) --- Edit to add --- however - actual metals - found in free flowing sediments (have not formed into sedimentary rock yet) is not ore - actual metal in free flowing sediments are just that - metals - that nature has liberated - from it's ore

Quote from Wiki "ore" - Ore is natural rock or sediment that contains one or more valuable minerals, typically containing metals, that can be mined, treated and sold at a profit"

However - with this very broad definition it is easy to take the true meaning of ore out of context & consider "anything" that contains valuable minerals as ore

One page from Wiki does not tell the full story

So to find the true meaning of ore you need to do a deeper dive (research) of ore

In the world of mining miners talk in the terms of ether ore deposits - or - placer deposits

So - one must ask the question - is there a difference between ore & placer --- & if so what is that difference

I asked those questions & in doing so found that there is a clear difference between what is considered placer metal & "actual" ore

In short - that difference is that it is considered placer metal when the "pure" element (such as gold silver copper etc.) has been broken free - by natural erosion - from it's surrounding/host (rock) minerals & therefore the pure elements have by natural erosion been separated from its host (or the gangue) --- where as "ore" is minerals still locked up in the surrounding/host (rock) --- the valued/target minerals in ore can be in ether pure form but still locked in the host rock (gangue) or as impure elements (like sulfides, oxides etc.) that need processing (milling, roasting, leaching etc.) to free (separate) the pure element from the host

So when asking "what is placer" &/or "what is the difference between placer & ore" these are just some of the results I got

https://www.goldrushnuggets.com/haromivsplgo.html
https://raregoldnuggets.com/?p=7040
https://www.silverrecyclers.com/blog/placer-gold.aspx
https://www.expressgoldcash.com/what-is-placer-gold-and-how-much-is-it-worth/
https://www.prospectingplanet.com/what-is-placer-gold/
A quote from the first link says this ----------

Hard rock, or “Lode” gold is still contained within ore, and various methods are used to extract the metal from the rock that surrounds it. --- Placer gold on the other hand occurs when natural erosion has released the gold from its host material and the gold is now a separate piece, whether that be a small speck of gold dust or a large gold nugget. --- (bold print by me)

In the above links the thing they have in common that makes placer (metal) different form ore is that the pure metal has been (by forces of nature) broken free of & separated from it's host rock (or the original ore)

Now then - back to ore

There is such a thing as placer ores - however - placer ores are differenced from actual pure placer metals (like gold, silver, copper etc.) in that placer ores still have the elements locked up in them as compounds of the metals (such as sulfides, oxides, etc.) which can not be broken free - by nature - from the host ore like actual pure placer metals ---Edited; - to remove repeating myself

In other words - to be placer ore man has to put that ore through processes to unlock the metals & separate those metals in ways that nature can not separate the metal (like nature can with pure metals)

In other words - place ore - is an ore - that has eroded from it original source (bed rock) but nature can not unlock the metal from the ore - like nature can unlock actual metal from ore --- man has to make the separation of the metal from placer ore - whereas nature can make the separation of the metal from the ore

A prime example of this is the gold bearing concentrate of black sands wherein nature has made the separation of the gold from the ore freeing it up as placer gold (the actual metal) which can easily be separated from the actual black sands - on the other hand - the actual black sand is a placer ore made up of hematite & magnetite (iron ore) which nature can not separate the iron from the ore because the ore is in the form of oxides - so man has to chemically change the oxides to the actual metal iron (by roasting, smelting, leaching etc.) in order to change the chemical composition of the ore which is something nature can not do

So there is a difference between placer metal - which has been separated from the ore by nature - & placer ore which nature can not separate the metal from the ore

So gold bearing black sands has both - actual separated "placer metal" (gold) - & - placer (iron) ore in it

More about what makes ore - ore

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrology#References
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_genesis
https://www.britannica.com/science/ore-mining
https://study.com/learn/lesson/what-is-ore.html
The common theme in what makes ore - ore - is that man has to unlock (separate) the targeted minerals/metals from the host (gangue) ether by mechanical means (crushing/milling/washing etc.) &/or causing actual chemical change to the chemical composition of those minerals/metals in the ore

So it is true that you can have placer ore - but it is not the same thing as placer metal

Placer metal is metal that has already been liberated from it's ore (gangue) by natural processes

Placer ore is ore that still needs man to liberate the metal by changing the chemical composition of the mineral/metal in order to separate the metal from the gangue

So there are two different types of ore - hard rock - & - placer --- but - there are also two types of placer - placer ore which nature can not liberate the metal from the gangue - & - placer metal which nature can liberate the metal from the gangue --- they are two different kinds of placer

At least that is my understanding after doing a deep dive (way beyond just the links I proved) to answer the question - "what is the difference between placer & ore"

My conclusion - placer metal (gold/silver/copper etc.) is not ore - it is actual metal that nature has liberated from the ore --- on the other hand - ore can also be placer - BUT - it requires man to make chemical alterations to the composition of the metals in the ore to liberate those metals - something nature can not do

Kurt

 

[goldshark]

Dang, that analysis made my head hurt. I agree on just about all the descriptions and variations of what is what. I was only defending Nountaineers comment that he had placer ore, which he did. It is a placer concentrate, found close to the source, which contained sulfides, PGM's, Au/Ag in some variation, some Cu, and God only knows what else the XRF says he has. Would you classify his cons as "ore"?

 

[goldshark]

We also come across a fair amount of Au in quartz. It could be sold as specimens, or crushed to liberate the Au. Given enough time and a certain environment, placer Gold can be dissolved and re precipitated, such as a supergene, saprolitic, regolithic and lateritic scenarios. It is covered in the descriptions given above, but is still a debatable subject. I think you and I should become lawyers in our next life.

 

[Southfork]

Found near a creek not in but could have rolled down the hill placer gold or gold ore? or both. I need a cup of coffee.

 

[kurtak]

I think you and I should become lawyers in our next life.

--- I have actually considered going to law school several times in the course of my life - I love the law & if I am not spending time researching things about PM recovery/refining I spend my time researching the law

I have had 3 times in my life where I hired attorneys & then ended up firing them (they wanted to plea bargain) & taking the case(s) on myself - I won all 3 cases

Dang, that analysis made my head hurt.

--- posting that made my head hurt - I think at one time I had 12 - 15 web tabs open to put that post together

I was only defending Nountaineers comment that he had placer ore, which he did. It is a placer concentrate, found close to the source, which contained sulfides, PGM's, Au/Ag in some variation, some Cu, and God only knows what else the XRF says he has. Would you classify his cons as "ore"?

So you are asking me to make my head hurt some more

but is still a debatable subject.

I agree

Kurt

 

[Alondro]

Thank you Kurt, this is my situation. I have blast and ship type ore for the refinery and have no truck and trailer for this. I need to raise cash to purchase same. I am very disabled and sick. I need to hire someone to help me get well so I am in need of much cash to do this. This ore is incredibly rich and I need help with making money to be able to ship it myself.

You're close enough for Mount Baker Mining and Materials to come take a look. The guy who owns it, Jason, is extremely knowledgeable about ore processing.

 

[goldshark]

Jason- Oregon, Nountaineer- Az/Mex border. I think Utah is somewhere in between. Maybe you can pay to have Jason fly down in his helicopter to help him out.