Old Prospector Makes Good

[AlaskaLes]

The only terms I would add to this are:
Residual placer... This is the proper term for gold ore that has eroded out of a lode source and hasn't traveled far from it's origin.

Eluvial placer... is the residual placer that is en route to an active water source.

Alluvial placer... is after the eluvial gold has reached the water body and is now being concentrated by the erosive action of the water body.

Regarding claiming and processing the residual placer ore that is sitting on top of the lode, this is regarded as very much illegal in the state of Alaska and I would be surprised if it was legal anywhere else.
Prospecting on another persons claims, as Kurtak pointed out earlier is very illegal.
You can cross my claims, and enjoy any outdoor activity you wish, but prospecting, sampling and any other aspect of mining are strictly against the law.

 

[Nountaineer]

While I agree with you on all your points, you have probably never had the opportunity to deal with either the US Forest Service, or BLM, on an issue of wether your claim is valid, due to the marketability of your "ore". It is the Governments description of your values, as to wether or not it constitutes "ore, a composition of minerals which in it's whole, can be sold for a profit". It is the government's description, or interpretation, of what an "ore" is, not mine. This holds true on either a placer, or lode deposit.
Hoping we all learn something new everyday,
The Goldshark.

The Prudent Man's Law provides guidance on this issue.

 

[Nountaineer]

You're close enough for Mount Baker Mining and Materials to come take a look. The guy who owns it, Jason, is extremely knowledgeable about ore processing.

Thank you but this is too soon for that to happen. I need to raise cash as stated to be able to get this to the refinery by myself. Maybe later on.

 

[Nountaineer]

Jason- Oregon, Nountaineer- Az/Mex border. I think Utah is somewhere in between. Maybe you can pay to have Jason fly down in his helicopter to help him out.

If I could pay to fly someone down here then I could afford to get it shipped myself.

 

[Nountaineer]

The only terms I would add to this are:
Residual placer... This is the proper term for gold ore that has eroded out of a lode source and hasn't traveled far from it's origin.

Eluvial placer... is the residual placer that is en route to an active water source.

Alluvial placer... is after the eluvial gold has reached the water body and is now being concentrated by the erosive action of the water body.

Regarding claiming and processing the residual placer ore that is sitting on top of the lode, this is regarded as very much illegal in the state of Alaska and I would be surprised if it was legal anywhere else.
Prospecting on another persons claims, as Kurtak pointed out earlier is very illegal.
You can cross my claims, and enjoy any outdoor activity you wish, but prospecting, sampling and any other aspect of mining are strictly against the law.

The BLM said it is Legal!

 

[Nountaineer]

He ju

I also wanted to add that "ore" is a mixture of minerals in a paying quantity. So placer concentrates are still considered "ore" He just likes to argue !

 

[goldshark]

If I could pay to fly someone down here then I could afford to get it shipped myself.

I was responding sarcastically to Alondro's recommendation to gat Jason from MBMM, to look at his ore. Jason does his own stuff , and can't afford to look at every possible wanna be ore sample , and run a 1000 pounds for free. I don't know anybody in the world, who would do this service for free. The freight is the logistical component. Jason's equipment is heavier then the 1000 lbs. of ore, plus his labor, fuel, and wear on machinery, to bring it to Arizona. I hope you were joking that Jason would help, for free. I didn't hear you say for free. But it would still be more cost effective to get it to Utah, then Jason. Maybe we could help Nountaineer with a "go fund me" account. It might be cool and interesting if Jason did a video on PGMs. But Nountaineer still hasn't produced a legitimate assay, other then an XRF, which very possibly, is inaccurate, to stimulate some interest.
Sounds like Nountaineer wants to do it on his own. That is why so many mines have failed throughout the world, under financed. It is OK to ask for help, as we cannot do all the tasks required in life, by our selves. Good luck to Nountaineer.

 

[goldshark]

If I could pay to fly someone down here then I could afford to get it shipped myself.

I WAS RESPONDING SARCASTICALLY TO

The Prudent Man's Law provides guidance on this issue.

Please provide more info on the "prudent man's law".

 

[goldshark]

I WAS RESPONDING SARCASTICALLY TO

Please provide more info on the "prudent man's law".

Sorry, hit the reply key prematurely.

 

[goldshark]

The BLM said it is Legal!

The BLM is a bunch of idiots at the front desk, when it comes to mining law. Unless you speak with either a head adjudicator, or the geologists. Their objective is get as much revenue from Federal lands as possible. If you do not do your research, and stake over an existing valid claim, the BLM will not tell you it is already staked. There is some methodology to doing this. Mainly, if a #1 right to mine claimant defaults on his paper work, the # 2claim holder jumps to #1. So there is some logic to overstaking. However, wether you file for a placer or lode claim, you have the right to kick off any body doing prospecting work on the claimed parcel of property,be it lode, or placer. You should find a copy of "mining Law", by Terry Wiley. He will explain it to you very well. All Federal claims are ruled by the Federal mining laws, so it does not vary from state to state.
The exception is that if you own a placer, and willingly let somebody prospect for lode, then they can file a lode claim over your placer. Moral of the story, don't willingly let anybody prospect on your claim, or you could wind up with a very sore rectum.

 

[jobinyt]

In Yukon Territory, basically, placer material and claims cover the material above bedrock. Material in bedrock is covered by 'Quartz' claims. They are independent of each other; can be filed by separate entities on the same piece of ground. If conflicts arise in exploration or mining there is a special court to resolve issues. In general, as long as it's not an active mining site, public access is permitted. This true on Crown land. If it's First Nation settlement land - or there is a caution on it - it gets complex and contentious.

 

[kurtak]

I have a 10kg furnace. Stacked 2 6kg crucibles in it and need to get the 10 kg size yet.

Nountaineer - you are asking for help in how to recover the PMs (Precious Metals) from what you believe to be some very rich ore

To do that (for us to help you) we need much more info on how you are set up to process the ore

In other words - besides having a furnace that takes a #10 (10 kilogram) crucible what other equipment do you have

Such as equipment for crushing the ore &/or equipment for concentrating the ore

Pictures of your equipment/set up would be very helpful

If you do not know how to post pictures Dave (FrugalRefiner) can/will help you with that

Kurt

 

[FrugalRefiner]

For help on posting pics, see Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum.

Dave

 

[Nountaineer]

The only terms I would add to this are:
Residual placer... This is the proper term for gold ore that has eroded out of a lode source and hasn't traveled far from it's origin.

Eluvial placer... is the residual placer that is en route to an active water source.

Alluvial placer... is after the eluvial gold has reached the water body and is now being concentrated by the erosive action of the water body.

Regarding claiming and processing the residual placer ore that is sitting on top of the lode, this is regarded as very much illegal in the state of Alaska and I would be surprised if it was legal anywhere else.
Prospecting on another persons claims, as Kurtak pointed out earlier is very illegal.
You can cross my claims, and enjoy any outdoor activity you wish, but prospecting, sampling and any other aspect of mining are strictly against the law.

Thank you for the clarification. I just called it all placer. According to the BLM it has to be claimed separately from the load claim. Alaska may be different.

 

[Nountaineer]

The BLM is a bunch of idiots at the front desk, when it comes to mining law. Unless you speak with either a head adjudicator, or the geologists. Their objective is get as much revenue from Federal lands as possible. If you do not do your research, and stake over an existing valid claim, the BLM will not tell you it is already staked. There is some methodology to doing this. Mainly, if a #1 right to mine claimant defaults on his paper work, the # 2claim holder jumps to #1. So there is some logic to overstaking. However, wether you file for a placer or lode claim, you have the right to kick off any body doing prospecting work on the claimed parcel of property,be it lode, or placer. You should find a copy of "mining Law", by Terry Wiley. He will explain it to you very well. All Federal claims are ruled by the Federal mining laws, so it does not vary from state to state.
The exception is that if you own a placer, and willingly let somebody prospect for lode, then they can file a lode claim over your placer. Moral of the story, don't willingly let anybody prospect on your claim, or you could wind up with a very sore rectum.

Retired BLM officer in person at my yard sale, not a janitor.

 

[goldshark]

Retired BLM officer in person at my yard sale, not a janitor.

It takes many years to decipher the mining laws. You will not get straight, solid, legal advice, in a casual conversation. These people speak with a forked tongue. They do not like dealing with under funded small miners, especially when it comes to processing sulfide materials. Ask me how I know. They have to act like they are being fair, if you are on public lands, but as soon as you propose anything that MAY violate the Clean Water Act, emit dust with sulfides, etc., then they will start making you jump through hoops like a lion at the circus. Also disturbing any known sulfide piles, now makes you part of the "personally responsible party", should they demand a clean up. What you are proposing, does not sound like a get rich quick scheme to me. I still wish you the best.

 

[kurtak]

My super high grade is about $50k/ton.

Hello Nountaineer

You have made this claim to have found some VERY high grade ore (which I hope is true & I will not argue with you as to whether or not that is true)

The problem you have (& the reason for coming to this forum to ask for help) is that you don't have the money you need to send large amounts of your ore to someone to process on a large scale

So you are asking how to process "small" amounts of this ore on your shoestring budget & with limited resources/equipment in order to make enough money to afford sending large amounts to a large processor

So - in an attempt to try to help you - I just spent several days taking a very close look at not only your material (ore) but as well your very small/limited resources to process some of this ore

Because I have put several days into taking a close look at your situation I hope you will give me the respect to hear me out --- I am not here to discourage &/or disrespect you - I am just here to help you put what you hope for into a perspective of reality

To start with (in putting this in perspective) I need to tell you that I have years of experience in the recovery & refining of PMs so have a very good understanding of what can & can not be done to make money

In order to determine whether you can make money you --------

1) first need to consider the material you are trying to recover the PMs from (in this case your ore)

2) then the resources/equipment you have to make that recovery

3) the process you intend to use

4) & then doing some number crunching by taking into consideration the expected recovery from the material AND consideration of the amount of that material you can process at one time with your resources/equipment

As I said - I just spent the last several days taking all 4 of those things into consideration as it applies to your situation AND I did the number crunching on those 4 things in order to give you a very clear picture of what you can expect - in your situation

In other words - it took several days to do a detailed assessment of your situation - & likewise it will take me several days to post the details in order to show you what you can expect in your situation

So - for today - lets take a very close look at the material you have - & we will crunch the numbers here based on your $50K expected PM recovery per ton of ore --- & there is no question that - that is some VERY high grade ore

But the real question is - how much ore can you process at a time - & therefore how much PMs can you expect to recover with your small set up

So - because your will be working on a small scale - we need to calculate how much PMs you can expect to get from smaller amounts of the material

So I calculated what kind of recovery can be expected from a kilogram of ore instead of from a ton (then we will calculate how many kilos you can process at one time with your equipment - that will come later)

Because I don't know the actual amount of each metal in the ore (gold/silver/PGMs) I did my calculations as if it is just gold in the ore --- & this is how the math works out ------------

$50K worth of gold in 1 ton of ore works out to "about" 28 ozt (troy ounces) gold per ton

28 ozt = 871 grams gold

There is about 907,185 grams in a ton

so in order to figure out how much ore you need to recover 1 gram of gold - you need to divide the grams in a ton by the grams of gold in a ton --- so ----------

907,185 (grams in a ton) divided by 871 grams gold in a ton = 1,041 grams of ore needed to recover 1 gram gold

Now that we know how much ore we need to recover 1 gram of gold we need to move to the next question which is how much ore can you process in your set up (your 10 kilogram furnace)

I will try to give you that information tomorrow --- I say try because I have a doctors appointment tomorrow so may not get to posting again until Thursday

And for what it is worth - the info I will be giving you in my next post is actually going to be based on my taking one of my #20 (20 kilogram) crucibles (the smallest crucible I have) to see how much material I could put in the crucible if I was actually going to do the smelting --- in other words - I am not just guessing but in fact will be giving you very real numbers with very real expectations

Kurt

 

[goldshark]

Did Nountaineer send you a sample to verify his claim?

 

[kurtak]

Did Nountaineer send you a sample to verify his claim?

No he has not - & he doesn't need to as my goal here is not to verify his claims

Rather my goal here is to show him - IF (the VERY BIG IF) his ore is actually as rich as he claims - then - can he process it - with the equipment/resources he has - in a way that he can make enough money to send 1000 pounds (or more) to a larger processor

In other words - I could care less whether his claims are valid or not --- I simply want to show him - how much ore he can process - time & chem (flux/collector metal) needed - to get a salable product (dore metal) - with the equipment/resources he has

From there he can make a real & educated conclusion as to whether or not his equipment/resources can (or not) make the money he hopes to make to go bigger

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

So - picking up were I left off Tuesday ------------

I have two furnaces - one that takes a #4 crucible which is used for melting pure metal &/or small assay smelts

The other one will take a #40 crucible & is used for actual larger smelting loads - the smallest crucible I have for this furnace is a #20 crucible which is what I used to determine how much - ore - flux - & collector metal I could put in that crucible - as if I was going to do the smelt on his ore

His furnace will only take a #10 crucible so his smelts will only be half of what my #20 crucible will do

I used sand from a bag of "play sand" I have --- play sand is sand that has the "dirt" washed out of it - so it is clean (fine) rock & therefore a very good representation of crushed ore

I sifted the sand through my 80 mesh screen - this is the largest mesh size you want for smelting other wise it will take a VERY extend smelt time for the flux to dissolve the gangue in the ore & slag the gangue off --- finer (100 - 150 mesh) is better but 80 mesh is just fine proved there is not a lot of it that big

The sand I have is mostly finer then 80 mesh - like only 15 -20% 80 mesh with the other 85 - 80% being 100 mesh & smaller so it will smelt just fine

So - as I posted the other day --------

so in order to figure out how much ore you need to recover 1 gram of gold - you need to divide the grams in a ton by the grams of gold in a ton --- so ----------

907,185 (grams in a ton) divided by 871 grams gold in a ton = 1,041 grams of ore needed to recover 1 gram gold

Per the bold print - the question becomes - how much volume (how many cups) of ore does it take to get that 1,041 grams of ore - AND - can you put that much - or more - or less - that much ore in the crucible for the smelt --- keeping in mind that besides the ore you also need flux & collector metal in the crucible for the smelt

The ore + the flux + the collector metal = your "smelt load" --- that is the max combination of ore/flux/collector you can put in the crucible for the smelt --- keeping in mind that you need to leave head room in the crucible so that you don't have a "boil over" (the "foaming up that happens) when the smelt comes up to smelt temp

Due to the chemical reactions that take place in the smelting process there is A LOT of foaming for a period of time until those chemical reactions start to die down --- therefore you can only fill the crucible about half full - to two thirds full "at most" --- other wise you will most certainly lose part of you smelt to the boil over

Making the "smelt load" --- for every 1 part of ore you need "at least" 2 parts of flux - & when trying to collect 1 gram of gold from a kilo of ore the smelt load needs to have "at least" 30% of the load to be collector metal

If you do not have enough collector metal - when the smelt gets molten - the metals will not collect together properly & settle as a molten pool of metal in the bottom of the crucible --- instead (without enough collector metal) little beads of metal will form in the flux/slag - get hung up there - thereby loosing metal to the slag instead of pooling to the bottom of the crucible

So - back to the math - how much volume is the 1,041 grams ore (to recover 1 gram of PMs) & how much of a load can you put in a crucible

I started with filling a 1 cup measuring cup with my sifted sand & weighed it --- it weighed 352 gram

So 3 cups of ore = 1,059 grams (so very close to the 1,041 grams)

Next we need to know how much of an actual "smelt load" will fit in a crucible

So next I filled a coffee can with sand - one cup at a time - it took 9 cups to fill the coffee can

I then poured the sand into my #20 crucible to see if that was enough for a load - not enough for a load - or more then a load --- the result was that it actually filled the crucible to it's max load level --- there is no way I would put more then a coffee can of ore/flux/collector metal in a #20 crucible & in fact at that much of a load you are at the high point of risking a boil over --- so max 9 cups of ore/flux/collect all combined for the smelt load

Let's now do the math to make that load

The load needs to be "at least" 30% collector metal - lets call it 33% (or one third) to be on the safe side of good collecting

So - 1/3 of 9 cups is 3 cups fine chopped copper needed for the load --- that leaves 6 cups for the ore & flux

Side note here; - there is a reason why I put fine chopped copper in bold print - for proper collection you can not use large pieces of copper &/or wadded up copper wire --- if you need me to explain why I will be more then glad to --- fine chopped - shavings - or powder (copper) insures best collection

so - back to the 6 cups remaining for the ore/flux part of the of the load

You need at least 2 parts flux for every 1 part ore - so to make the ore/flux part of the load that comes to 2 cups ore + 4 cups flux = 6 cups ore/flux + 3 cups fine chopped copper = the 9 cups max smelt load that will fit in a #20 crucible

Your furnace only takes a #10 crucible so cut that in half which means you can only smelt 1 cup (350 grams) of ore at a time

As we have already determined - we need 1,041 grams to recover 1 gram of precious metals from your ore which means at best with your furnace you can recover only about (plus/minus) 1/3 gram of PMs per smelt load

Side note again; - in the event you have questions like --- ya but Kurt you are only talking about gold - what about PGMs &/or silver - simply ask & will be more them glad to better explain

Anyway - now that we have figured out how much ore you can process "per smelt load" with your 10K furnace we next need to figure how many smelt loads we can do in a day

That will be my next post - which I will try to do tomorrow

Kurt