Preview of Electrolytic Process- Equipment List

[docone31]

Noxx,
I am new to this, and I have read, and read untill my head spins. There is so much information for the layman. It is incredible! I am really excited at this prospect. I have plated gold, karat gold, do not trust refiners, and basically want the satisfaction of doing it.
I have met some really decent people already.
Is there an actual simple way of using acids, breaking down the karat gold and refineing it?
I got an Ishor unit, and I am so sorry I did. It arrived with a broken cell, missing parts, and I have been led around and around. I tried to download the Hoke book, but the link is broken.
I am on a lot of forums. I have never spent so much time just absorbing all the information presented here. It is incredible! Photos, formulas, processes. Absolutely amazing.
Does anyone here have a thread on how to do it? I actually have two PhDs. I am so glad none of them recquired chemistry. My head spins.
It is like being in a toy store for the first time. Where do I start? I want to jump right in, however I also want to know what I am doing. You know, the "where fools rush in" thing.
What a great forum! You guys ROCK!

 

[lazersteve]

Begin with the basics and very simple acquaintance tests with every process you plan to use.

Start with reading the Guided Tour link in my signature line. Be sure you follow the four main links therein.

The General Reactions list will get you up to speed.

Next be sure to make some stannous chloride, as Harold stated once, it is your eyes into the solutions.

Let us know if you get lost or side tracked.

Ask questions first, before you mess up and have to back track.

Most of all, enjoy yourself, be very safe, and be responsible,

Steve

 

[docone31]

Steve, I am watching the melting video on your site as we write.
I appreciate all the help. This is like sustenance to my brain.
I always measure twice, cut once. I will probably drive a lot of nuts with my seemingly redundant questions.
Today, as I explored this site and met some of us folks, I did a wax, invested four rings, burned out, cast some silver. Meantine I read, and read. The burn out smell is still in the house. I do love it.
Thanks Steve.
I appreciate it.

 

[ghut]

dicone,

Sounds like you are burning out without proper ventilation. A few years ago, a good friend became very ill after burning out for a couple days without ventilation as the fan motor went out. It, also, cost him hundreds of dollars to have his duck work cleaned and sanitized afterwards. Every professional jeweler and dental lab owner that I know properly vents thier burn out ovens. If you use the chemicals and processes you will learn on this forum with the same attitude you apparently apply to your burn out you're going to jepordize you health in a very, very bad way.

By the way, I use the Shor system for a portion of my refining needs with the expected results. But, I didn't wait 18 months to open the package and inspect the contents, nor would I do that with anything I order. I don't know of any supplier that would honor a damage claim and year and a half after the item was received.

 

[docone31]

I am glad you got use from your unit. I really am.
I had a Foredom unit, that I recieved, that after two moves, and several years, I took out of the box and used it.
I had no idea, that a ceramic cell, unused in the box, without apparent damage, would self destruct. I understand about consumeables. I had no idea the ceramic cell was a consumeable.
I also appeciate the concern about the burn out kiln. Fortunately, the room I built for the Fizzer Cell, also contains my kiln, and high temperature gear. There is no duct work, outside from an high volume evacuation fan. I do not use a Moon Suit to check the pyrometer, so there is some odor when I enter the room.
What we do, has some techniques that recquire using proper techniques. Ventilation, cleanliness, tool care, and disposal protocol. I use a vaccum caster rather than a spin caster. I have had blow outs with rotating mass.
After 25yrs of doing what I do, I also, have seen some things. It is with that in mind, rather than jumping into something head first, I research, sometimes for years.
There is a right way, wrong way, and a stupid way. I have done my share of stupid things in my days. I have the scars to prove it. The few apprentices I have had, I prefer to itemize what can happen if.... They laugh, but I like to think some remember. Simple things can have serious consequences.
Ever seen what happens when recasting pewter and a slightly moist piece gets thrown into the melt? I saw that at a casting shop I worked at when I was a teenager. There are not a lot of words to describe it. Pewter rain.
The person was an experienced caster. He knew better, just wanted to hurry up the casting. My back was to him, and we spent the next week getting pewter off everything!
I deeply appreciate your concerns. I share them. I would want to reach out and and help someone accomplish their goal and live to repeat it also.
Thanks.
After 25yrs, I can still utilize all the advice I can recieve. When someone miligrains a bezel, or cuts a vertex, after a while we learn a better way. It is important to never forget what we first learned, and why. With all the things I do for the shop and the time constraints, I do need to be called back to the basics, even if they are employed.
I appreciate it.

 

[webster2872]

Hi all
This thread has been quite for a while and I would like to know if any of you people have experemented futher with this. I realize that it is a tremendous amount of work, but has anyone thought about doing a tutorial on the process. It would be a big help to me, even if the tutorial was in slide show format. Also would like answer to a question. Would this process work done on a hot plate outside, Thanks Robert

 

[butcher]

Very popular process, see www.goldrecovery.us, also read this forum, many easy processes and help here, checkout Lasersteves posts, welcome to forum

 

[usaman65]

Bump!!!!! Interested in salt karat gold process!

kev

 

[bmgold]

I'm interested in the salt water karat gold cell. Here is my understanding of this process. Keep in mind that these are my thoughts and I am likely to be wrong so someone correct me where I am wrong.

From what I can tell, you have an outer container where the cathode (negative) connection is made which is probably a carbon or graphite rod.

??? Maybe stainless steel or other metal???

And, you have an inner container made from a fused silica crucible or a clay flower pot with the hole plugged.

???is this the same as a clay crucible???

In this inner container you would have your karat gold connected as the anode (positive).

a salt water solution would be put into both the inner and outer containers. A little hydrogen peroxide might also be added but I'm not sure which part or maybe both parts.

I'm certain the anode will be destroyed but what goes where?

Gold chloride is soluble so it should, I think, go into solution. Does it stay in the inner chamber dissolved or is it electrically precipitated at the cathode side into the outer container?

Silver chloride is insoluble so it should stay in the inner container as a precipitate.

Copper chloride is soluble so it should end up wherever the gold does.

From that point I expect the solutions and/or precipitates would be cleaned and refined as needed. (filtered, washed, dissolved, precipitated, etc.)

Anyone care to comment on and correct my thoughts? It sounds like a cheap method if it works.

 

[lazersteve]

BMgold,

The method works albeit very slowly. As you know from the other processes I use, slow is not always a problem for me. The real problem for me with this one is the attention it requires.

I tried it on a 2+ ounce anode of karat gold I poured from melted jewelry, suspended with a platinum wire in the anode compartment. After 2 hours the cell quit working and had to be cleaned and set up a second time. After a total of two clean out cycles (6 hours) I gave up on the process. The bar only lost a small portion of mass in the process (about 15 grams out of 77).

The gold was partially dissolved in the anode compartment and partially precipitated in the anode compartment.

The silver chloride stayed in the anode area also.

It seemed to me like the crucible became passivated after the third reload cycle. I think something was going on where the membrane no longer passed ions as the current would not flow even in a freshly set up rig.

I never pursued it beyond this.

The cathode is just a SS dish and you clip the negative power lead directly to it.

I'm certain with some experimenting this could be a viable method.

Here's how my anode looked after 6 hours:

Steve

 

[bmgold]

Thanks for the reply. I have very small amounts of gold so I may or may not give it a try but I'll take your word for it that it does work a little and for a little but probably not worth doing.

Dealing with small quantities of gold, etc makes it hard to justify the cost of nitric or other stuff and I hoped this might be the answer.

That's not to say I haven't or won't spend more time and money on this quest for gold than it is worth, but I have a limited amount of time and money to spare.

 

[Kbow]

Steve came and visited me and my dad and let me tell you we had a great time. Steve brought us a cell ready to go and taught us how to use it. It works great. We have a good many pins to do in a copper mesh strainer.

I also did two small buttons from from computer boards yesterday. (my first.) 5.4 grams small but a good start.

Steve,

I can not thank you enough for taking time to come up and share your world of knowledge with us.

Kbow

 

[lazersteve]

Keith,

I'm glad you and your dad enjoyed my visit. It was fun to go to the mountains for a short while. I really love helping others learn refining and recovery of precious metals.

Please PM me as I'm looking for a few scrap items.

Steve

P.S. The Platinum and Palladium DVD is ready if you or your dad want a copy.

 

[Kbow]

I will let dad know aobut the videos!

I sent you a pm.

 

[Kbow]

Steve,

Did we use glycerin when you came? I know we used the drain cleaner but do not recall any glycerin. Does it go by another name by chance?

Thanks,

Keith

 

[lazersteve]

Keith,

Skip the glycerin, it has been determined that it's use is undefined and it can be eliminated from the reaction.

Steve

 

[Ignatz61]

Ok,
I have set up a cell for doing 2 lbs of gold plated parts at a time. I am suspending a perforated 2" PVC pipe in a column of sulfuric acid, electrical hook up as usual. I can limit the amps to around 8-9. I get about 95% striped when I dump the container. I have to pick through the striped parts and pull out the ones that need a little more stripping and either through them back in the next batch or hand strip in a small cell.

After I stripped a bunch of copper parts and dumped the processed parts in a bucket I got a phone call and they sat in residue acid and some wash water. I noticed about 20% of this batch had gold still on them, after soaking for about an hour all were copper colored. What would have caused these to get coppper coated?
I now know they have to go into the water right away but can anyone explain the chemistry here?
Thanks JOhn

 

[Palladium]

Keith,

I'm glad you and your dad enjoyed my visit. It was fun to go to the mountains for a short while. I really love helping others learn refining and recovery of precious metals.

Steve where in ala did you go? You said mountains and we only have them up north. You sound like santa now.

Thanks for every thing you do Steve. :wink:

 

[lazersteve]

Ralph,

My wife and I made the 700 mile round trip to North of Decatur in one day with four or five hours spent at the members house giving him and his father some hands on training.

We really enjoyed the trip, but it was greuling to do all in a single day. I wish I had more time to stay and teach them more. As it was we didn't get home until 3:30 AM.

I hand delivered his DVDs and a complete cell set up to them. In return he gave me some cash, four catalytics (1 foreign, 1 GM loaf of bead, 2 OEMs), and a low power military range finding laser (NT172) complete with optics. The optics and laser were all mounted on a very nice sled. I'm still hunting wiring information for the laser if anyone has the specs on it.

All in all my wife and I had a really great trip and it was nice to get away.

Steve

 

[Palladium]

You the man Steve.

I use to live just north of Decatur years ago. That's up around Athens and limestone alabama. Hope you enjoyed the ride. It's some of the prettiest spots in the state up around the area. They call it the tennessee river valley even though it's in Alabama. And man does that river produce some good fishing. :wink: