jimdoc
Well-known member
lender said:
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Refining Gold from Gold Filled Jewelry
- Thread starter Oneal58
- Start date
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Try here;
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Yeah Scribd started doing that after i posted it there several years ago. Pisses me off! I though about linking it back to the forum. It's just that when they read it on scribd they also can see my other free downloads there also. If you open a scribd account and post something, anything it don't matter what, they will let you download for free anytime. It's easy to open one. They don't spam you or anything of that nature.
Unless it has changed recently, when you try to download a file on Scribd, they ask for either money or an upload. If you upload a file, they let you download free for 24 hours, I think. I usually upload some PM pdf file on my computer that I have downloaded from some other source.
HI Butcher, and Everyone.
I bought out a Jewelry Store many years ago. I sold or rather give away a lot of gold out of that purchase before realizing what I was doing. I started testing each and every piece when someone commented he had hit a bonanza that was mismarked, this material came from me too.
Anyway, I have a lot of material left that does not test at 10K but I don't want to make a mistake again and sell material that is less than 10K for scrap iron prices.
I have a lot of this material, fresh out of the molds, a lot of it still has the white material on it that wasn't cleaned off when taken out of the mold.
It would take a really large amount of Nitric to dissolve all this material up and it may end up not being gold at all! I have been looking at using the Muriatic and Soda of Nitrate process.
IF ANYONE HAS TIME COULD THEY PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE PRO'S AND CON'S OF THIS METHOD, IT WOULD VERY MUCH BE APPRECIATED! The video's and information I seek seems to be left out OR I just can't find what I need to know.
Question1, Like, how much Soda of Nitrate pellets to use per 1/2 gallon of Muriatic, or just the ratio's, metal, soda of nitrate, muriatic %.
Question 2-This would give me how much of this mixture I need to use per pound of material. I have many of what I am calling trees, the things the Jeweler's used on each piece of jewelry to Gold Plate It, I HOPE. I also have a lot of material that I don't have a clue what it could be. Looks sort of like zinc, some of the pieces have Jewelry individual pieces still on them that wasn't cut off.
Question3- Would I put everything into the batch?
Question 3-How long do I need to treat (unassembled jewelry pieces) material or just keep treating until I get no more Brown Fumes?
Question 4-Do I need to pre-mix the Muriatic and Soda of Nitrate Pellets before I add it to material?
Question 5- What colors to look for in the solution. I know it should be yellow (since I am trying to dissolve gold, but I ran a test run on some material and the color of the solution was jet black?? Can anyone tell me why I ended up with black when I should be dissolving gold?
ON MY FIRST TEST RUN I USED 1/2 POUND OF JEWELRY PIECES, 1/3 GALLON OF MURIATIC AND 1/4 CUP OF SODA OF NITRATE PELLETS?
If anyone can tell me if I am doing anything right or all the things I am doing wrong or anywhere IN-BETWEEN. The things I should be doing and what I should be doing, it would be appreciated.
My reasoning for trying this method is I know that I will probably have a lot of material that does not contain gold. I just don't want to waste any NItric on metal that isn't gold or silver?
Oh, yes I do get a very strong positive for gold with the stannous test.
Thanks, Everyone
Oneal
I bought out a Jewelry Store many years ago. I sold or rather give away a lot of gold out of that purchase before realizing what I was doing. I started testing each and every piece when someone commented he had hit a bonanza that was mismarked, this material came from me too.
Anyway, I have a lot of material left that does not test at 10K but I don't want to make a mistake again and sell material that is less than 10K for scrap iron prices.
I have a lot of this material, fresh out of the molds, a lot of it still has the white material on it that wasn't cleaned off when taken out of the mold.
It would take a really large amount of Nitric to dissolve all this material up and it may end up not being gold at all! I have been looking at using the Muriatic and Soda of Nitrate process.
IF ANYONE HAS TIME COULD THEY PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE PRO'S AND CON'S OF THIS METHOD, IT WOULD VERY MUCH BE APPRECIATED! The video's and information I seek seems to be left out OR I just can't find what I need to know.
Question1, Like, how much Soda of Nitrate pellets to use per 1/2 gallon of Muriatic, or just the ratio's, metal, soda of nitrate, muriatic %.
Question 2-This would give me how much of this mixture I need to use per pound of material. I have many of what I am calling trees, the things the Jeweler's used on each piece of jewelry to Gold Plate It, I HOPE. I also have a lot of material that I don't have a clue what it could be. Looks sort of like zinc, some of the pieces have Jewelry individual pieces still on them that wasn't cut off.
Question3- Would I put everything into the batch?
Question 3-How long do I need to treat (unassembled jewelry pieces) material or just keep treating until I get no more Brown Fumes?
Question 4-Do I need to pre-mix the Muriatic and Soda of Nitrate Pellets before I add it to material?
Question 5- What colors to look for in the solution. I know it should be yellow (since I am trying to dissolve gold, but I ran a test run on some material and the color of the solution was jet black?? Can anyone tell me why I ended up with black when I should be dissolving gold?
ON MY FIRST TEST RUN I USED 1/2 POUND OF JEWELRY PIECES, 1/3 GALLON OF MURIATIC AND 1/4 CUP OF SODA OF NITRATE PELLETS?
If anyone can tell me if I am doing anything right or all the things I am doing wrong or anywhere IN-BETWEEN. The things I should be doing and what I should be doing, it would be appreciated.
My reasoning for trying this method is I know that I will probably have a lot of material that does not contain gold. I just don't want to waste any NItric on metal that isn't gold or silver?
Oh, yes I do get a very strong positive for gold with the stannous test.
Thanks, Everyone
Oneal
Oneal,
I would test the material with drops of solution, sort it accordingly.
Nitric on a file spot can detect copper; it can be used to help detect silver and gold.
Nitric can also be helpful in determining gold plating on an object.
A scratch stone is also useful with a drop of nitric acid.
Many base metals would react with HCl alone, those above hydrogen in the reactivity series of metals.
Schwerters solution can test for silver, help to determine karat gold (other metals) and can test for some of the base metals.
The touch stone and using karat needles and comparing the marks of known and unknown scratch marks using nitric and different concentrations of aqua regia and known test needle scratches.
You can also get an idea if PGM may be involved with this test.
And then there is putting a small portion of the metal (drilling filling) into solution and testing with stannous chloride, DMG, and so on.
Pawn broker’s guide is an excellent source for these methods (you can find it in a search of the forum).
After determining if an object is plated base metal and possibly what base metal, or if the item was karate gold or silver, and separating these materials,
Then decide how to process, some material may be better to run in the concentrated sulfuric cell, very little chemicals or waste to deal with, some may be valuable enough to melt with silver dissolve silver and base metals in nitric and then refine the gold.
Testing can also help you to determine what material may be better off sold that messing with yourself.
As far as making a large batch of poor man’s with HCL and a nitrate fertilizer, I would hold off on that Idea for now, in my opinion it would not be good for large volumes of base metals Too much waste, and also small amounts of gold dissolved into solution with untold amounts of unknown base metals could just become a mess.
I would first get an Idea of what I had before making plans on how to process it.
I know I did not answer the questions you had but I hope this helps.
How have you been? we do not hear from you that often anymore, are you getting good hugs from the Grands?
I would test the material with drops of solution, sort it accordingly.
Nitric on a file spot can detect copper; it can be used to help detect silver and gold.
Nitric can also be helpful in determining gold plating on an object.
A scratch stone is also useful with a drop of nitric acid.
Many base metals would react with HCl alone, those above hydrogen in the reactivity series of metals.
Schwerters solution can test for silver, help to determine karat gold (other metals) and can test for some of the base metals.
The touch stone and using karat needles and comparing the marks of known and unknown scratch marks using nitric and different concentrations of aqua regia and known test needle scratches.
You can also get an idea if PGM may be involved with this test.
And then there is putting a small portion of the metal (drilling filling) into solution and testing with stannous chloride, DMG, and so on.
Pawn broker’s guide is an excellent source for these methods (you can find it in a search of the forum).
After determining if an object is plated base metal and possibly what base metal, or if the item was karate gold or silver, and separating these materials,
Then decide how to process, some material may be better to run in the concentrated sulfuric cell, very little chemicals or waste to deal with, some may be valuable enough to melt with silver dissolve silver and base metals in nitric and then refine the gold.
Testing can also help you to determine what material may be better off sold that messing with yourself.
As far as making a large batch of poor man’s with HCL and a nitrate fertilizer, I would hold off on that Idea for now, in my opinion it would not be good for large volumes of base metals Too much waste, and also small amounts of gold dissolved into solution with untold amounts of unknown base metals could just become a mess.
I would first get an Idea of what I had before making plans on how to process it.
I know I did not answer the questions you had but I hope this helps.
How have you been? we do not hear from you that often anymore, are you getting good hugs from the Grands?
HI Butcher and thanks. My daughter knows I am not up to my old self, yet. She sort of limits the visits from the kids, knowing they can be a handful at times. I have got to call her and tell her to let me be the one to say it's time for a break instead of the kids thinking it may be me that does not want them to visit.
Butcher, I guess I was just trying to take the lazy man's way with this lot. If I had to sit down and count how many of these unassembled bracelet, necklace, pieces, I have, the count would more than likely run into the thousands.
So that is why I was looking for a process to make it less involved. I guess this is telling me that I am not yet up to the job healthwise yet. I would not have hesitated to test each and every piece a few months back. Maybe I need to just take a little more time to get back to my old self and build my strength back up.
By the way, thanks for asking Buddy.
Oneal
Butcher, I guess I was just trying to take the lazy man's way with this lot. If I had to sit down and count how many of these unassembled bracelet, necklace, pieces, I have, the count would more than likely run into the thousands.
So that is why I was looking for a process to make it less involved. I guess this is telling me that I am not yet up to the job healthwise yet. I would not have hesitated to test each and every piece a few months back. Maybe I need to just take a little more time to get back to my old self and build my strength back up.
By the way, thanks for asking Buddy.
Oneal
Oneal, can you sort some of the material which seems of higher quality that the others by looks?
A helper could also help with testing.
A long journey starts with one small step, a mountain can be moved one shovelful at a time, do not look at how far you have to walk, or how big the mountain is, just take a small step and one shovelful.
Oneal, you really do not want to overdue, but you also do not want to let the moss grow under your feet, take it easy, but do not give up, and build your strength.
Give those grand kids a big hug for me.
Your friend Butcher
A helper could also help with testing.
A long journey starts with one small step, a mountain can be moved one shovelful at a time, do not look at how far you have to walk, or how big the mountain is, just take a small step and one shovelful.
Oneal, you really do not want to overdue, but you also do not want to let the moss grow under your feet, take it easy, but do not give up, and build your strength.
Give those grand kids a big hug for me.
Your friend Butcher
Hi Butcher, everyone
Butcher, thank you so much for the encouraging words in your last post. I apoligize for being away so long and not contacting you. As good a friend as you have been to me I at least felt I needed to let you know I am still hanging around. Not so high anymore but still here.
Not too many years ago you could not have convinced me it would take all the energy I could muster to make it to the computer room or the bathroom?
I just want to take this opportunity to thank you. You are and always have been a willing, free hearted, very highly respected individual by me. What a great guy you must be and I only aspire to come somewhere close in this lifetime. Qualities in men are sometimes put there through hardships, successes, failures, etc;, experienced. But, of course for some, just being thankful for just the gift of life. Most importantly, let me not to forget and leave out our (Parent's), mentor's teacher's, Etc;, starting at birth and then throughout life.
I am and always will be thankful for your guidance, your patience with me. But most of all, befriending me. I just wish I could have meet you sooner.
When I can get to going again, I have a thousand questions for you.
Your Friend and devoted apprentice, forever.
Oneal,
I hope I got that Etc; thing right, or is it "Etc", if I messed up Harold will have a fit, thanks Harold for all your help!!
P.S.
I also want to thank (KADRIVER) who has also went out his way to encourage and help me that few men would have done. I also want to thank everyone on the site for their support and guidance as well. I will talk to everyone again when I get to feeling better.
Butcher, thank you so much for the encouraging words in your last post. I apoligize for being away so long and not contacting you. As good a friend as you have been to me I at least felt I needed to let you know I am still hanging around. Not so high anymore but still here.
Not too many years ago you could not have convinced me it would take all the energy I could muster to make it to the computer room or the bathroom?
I just want to take this opportunity to thank you. You are and always have been a willing, free hearted, very highly respected individual by me. What a great guy you must be and I only aspire to come somewhere close in this lifetime. Qualities in men are sometimes put there through hardships, successes, failures, etc;, experienced. But, of course for some, just being thankful for just the gift of life. Most importantly, let me not to forget and leave out our (Parent's), mentor's teacher's, Etc;, starting at birth and then throughout life.
I am and always will be thankful for your guidance, your patience with me. But most of all, befriending me. I just wish I could have meet you sooner.
When I can get to going again, I have a thousand questions for you.
Your Friend and devoted apprentice, forever.
Oneal,
I hope I got that Etc; thing right, or is it "Etc", if I messed up Harold will have a fit, thanks Harold for all your help!!
P.S.
I also want to thank (KADRIVER) who has also went out his way to encourage and help me that few men would have done. I also want to thank everyone on the site for their support and guidance as well. I will talk to everyone again when I get to feeling better.
maynman1751
Well-known member
Oneal, hang in there and gather your strength. You are in our thoughts and prayers. John.
Oneal,
I have missed you on the forum, I also feel appreciative to be able to have met you and feel the bond of friendship, I also hate to hear your still struggling with your health, and at the same time glad you are looking to get back up and refining, that shows your fighting spirit, and you are not giving in, keep fighting to get back to the computer, and join in on the forum we miss you here, and the forum I believe can also be good medicine for the mind, and if we can help to keep our mind healthy it can also help our body healing.
I miss some of our discussions, you had a way of making the discussion very rewarding and full of detail, also I feel like even though I have not met you I know you, and I have a good friend in life I can count on (a rare thing in life), I also miss the discussions about the grand kids, I do not have any grandkids, maybe that is why I love to hear the stories about yours.
My good friend do not give up, and get better, so we can have some long chats, about gold and Grand kids, you have been missed here on the forum.
Get back to health
Your friend Butcher
I have missed you on the forum, I also feel appreciative to be able to have met you and feel the bond of friendship, I also hate to hear your still struggling with your health, and at the same time glad you are looking to get back up and refining, that shows your fighting spirit, and you are not giving in, keep fighting to get back to the computer, and join in on the forum we miss you here, and the forum I believe can also be good medicine for the mind, and if we can help to keep our mind healthy it can also help our body healing.
I miss some of our discussions, you had a way of making the discussion very rewarding and full of detail, also I feel like even though I have not met you I know you, and I have a good friend in life I can count on (a rare thing in life), I also miss the discussions about the grand kids, I do not have any grandkids, maybe that is why I love to hear the stories about yours.
My good friend do not give up, and get better, so we can have some long chats, about gold and Grand kids, you have been missed here on the forum.
Get back to health
Your friend Butcher
Oneal I too wish you well and hope your health and strength return to you soon.
With Christmas coming perhaps ask for an I pad or similar device so accessing the forum isn't such a chore but one you can do from your armchair or bed if necessary, keeping your mind active is as important as every other treatment in regaining your health, as I know your are aware of how much information there is on the forum it will keep you busy for decades and work your mind continually and hopefully give you the needed impetus and even better the knowledge to return to your hobby with renewed enthusiasm.
Keep well and stay in touch with the forum even if you cant process at present I'm sure in time you will be back to it.
With Christmas coming perhaps ask for an I pad or similar device so accessing the forum isn't such a chore but one you can do from your armchair or bed if necessary, keeping your mind active is as important as every other treatment in regaining your health, as I know your are aware of how much information there is on the forum it will keep you busy for decades and work your mind continually and hopefully give you the needed impetus and even better the knowledge to return to your hobby with renewed enthusiasm.
Keep well and stay in touch with the forum even if you cant process at present I'm sure in time you will be back to it.
My sincere thanks goes out to each and every one of you for your support and concern. After reading everyone's post I have felt better today? After the first month I was a member here of the forum I knew this forum was much more than just a place to seek free knowledge for a new hobby. I found out very quickly that it was and is a place to meet and talk to wonderful individuals from here and around the world.
Butcher, those grand's are growing like weeds, I think that there's something in the food the children eat anymore nowadays? They both just left the house, my grandson Dayton, has this golf cart that looks like a dragster. He also drives it like one. Thank goodness it will not run like one. He wanted a 4-wheeler but I stopped that in it's tracks. I caused a big fuss but I stood my ground! My Pastor, Son-in-Law finally came around, after showing him some statistics of how many young children gets killed or hurt badly on 4-Wheeler's. You know the reason I had to do that Butcher. After the lose of one of these precious gems given to us, I will not take the risk, ever! There are just too many accidents with the 4-wheeler's involving children that concerns me. Especially children who drive like I once did in my youth. Which my grandson only know's one speed, pedal to the metal!!! I guess it's in the gene's passed down from PAPA. It was sure in my blood, 440 Hemi Cuda, Super Sports Chevelle's that muscle car fever lasted for far too long in my life. Then came the Motor Cycle craze which did kill me for a short period of time until the Dr.s fried me with the paddles. I could not walk or move for days after that. Every muscle in my body turned into cement, that's what it felt like anyway. That is when Mrs. Parker put her foot down and I had to sell everything I had.
Now, the little Angel, now she is 6 years old. Of course she has to see her Papa every single day. Even if just for a few minutes. If I am laying down she comes in to my bedroom and gives me a big hug and a kiss, and of course, (I love you PAPA). Crawls in beside me and says she wants to cuddle for a while. I looked out the window today and she was dragging a snow man in a snow sled. She drug it up on the front porch and plugged it in. She says, now Santa can see you Christmas Eve night. What wonderful magic memories she brought back to me by her actions today. I fear it will be her last magic Christmas, I think she already knows but just knows how to play along also? She has already asked why Santa only worked on her playhouse when she was gone or in bed? In a few years she will go as my Grandson is going, his own friends and things to do. Much more fun than hanging around with a broken down old man. But this is normal and I expected it, I even encouraged it, so no surprises there.
Both of them are sharp as pins, I am so thankful for their good health, mentally and physically. When I get the time I will send you a picture of them. It makes me feel so sad for you to know you will never be able to experience grandchildren. For me personally, I am enjoying my grands more so than I did my own children. Reason being, that I don't feel the need to make them toe the line as I did my children. In my case, I really do enjoy my grand's more. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I love them more than my own, but just as much as I did and do my own. What I am trying to say is, I can enjoy them more, but love them the same.
How about I stick them in a box and mail them to you for a few days. After a few hours with both of them together, I may get them back, mailed by way of express overnight,Guaranteed delivery by 10:00 A.M.!
Thank you so Much Everyone!
Oneal
Butcher, those grand's are growing like weeds, I think that there's something in the food the children eat anymore nowadays? They both just left the house, my grandson Dayton, has this golf cart that looks like a dragster. He also drives it like one. Thank goodness it will not run like one. He wanted a 4-wheeler but I stopped that in it's tracks. I caused a big fuss but I stood my ground! My Pastor, Son-in-Law finally came around, after showing him some statistics of how many young children gets killed or hurt badly on 4-Wheeler's. You know the reason I had to do that Butcher. After the lose of one of these precious gems given to us, I will not take the risk, ever! There are just too many accidents with the 4-wheeler's involving children that concerns me. Especially children who drive like I once did in my youth. Which my grandson only know's one speed, pedal to the metal!!! I guess it's in the gene's passed down from PAPA. It was sure in my blood, 440 Hemi Cuda, Super Sports Chevelle's that muscle car fever lasted for far too long in my life. Then came the Motor Cycle craze which did kill me for a short period of time until the Dr.s fried me with the paddles. I could not walk or move for days after that. Every muscle in my body turned into cement, that's what it felt like anyway. That is when Mrs. Parker put her foot down and I had to sell everything I had.
Now, the little Angel, now she is 6 years old. Of course she has to see her Papa every single day. Even if just for a few minutes. If I am laying down she comes in to my bedroom and gives me a big hug and a kiss, and of course, (I love you PAPA). Crawls in beside me and says she wants to cuddle for a while. I looked out the window today and she was dragging a snow man in a snow sled. She drug it up on the front porch and plugged it in. She says, now Santa can see you Christmas Eve night. What wonderful magic memories she brought back to me by her actions today. I fear it will be her last magic Christmas, I think she already knows but just knows how to play along also? She has already asked why Santa only worked on her playhouse when she was gone or in bed? In a few years she will go as my Grandson is going, his own friends and things to do. Much more fun than hanging around with a broken down old man. But this is normal and I expected it, I even encouraged it, so no surprises there.
Both of them are sharp as pins, I am so thankful for their good health, mentally and physically. When I get the time I will send you a picture of them. It makes me feel so sad for you to know you will never be able to experience grandchildren. For me personally, I am enjoying my grands more so than I did my own children. Reason being, that I don't feel the need to make them toe the line as I did my children. In my case, I really do enjoy my grand's more. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I love them more than my own, but just as much as I did and do my own. What I am trying to say is, I can enjoy them more, but love them the same.
How about I stick them in a box and mail them to you for a few days. After a few hours with both of them together, I may get them back, mailed by way of express overnight,Guaranteed delivery by 10:00 A.M.!
Thank you so Much Everyone!
Oneal
Oneal,
Your attitude impresses me greatly. Both in how you are choosing to look at some of your health issues and family, as well as how you choose your friends. You have picked from the cream of the crop on the forum in noticing what a fine man Butcher is. Humble, educated, and well walked in many a man’s shoes.
I will hold you and yours in my prayers and wish you a happy and healthful holidays.
PS; yes I have broken from forum rules in keeping religion out of general discussion.
Your attitude impresses me greatly. Both in how you are choosing to look at some of your health issues and family, as well as how you choose your friends. You have picked from the cream of the crop on the forum in noticing what a fine man Butcher is. Humble, educated, and well walked in many a man’s shoes.
I will hold you and yours in my prayers and wish you a happy and healthful holidays.
PS; yes I have broken from forum rules in keeping religion out of general discussion.
Thanks Everyone for your encouragement. It is all appreciated and truely has helped.
Butcher,
I caught the wife gone today to see her mother. I took your advice and just made myself walk over to the work building. I had to leave a couple of projects right in the middle of finishing them off. As I have mentioned before after the last operation my memory doesn't serve me well anymore. I normally keep notes on each process as to where I am on them, especially through the weekends so I don't make any mistakes due to not remembering where I was on a refine.
I didn't have the note option this time , I had to drop everything and leave it. So when I walked back into the work room today I was surprised to find out I had left 4 different projects going while I have been unable to get out. I was able to figure out that 2 of the refines were left sitting in AR. Then on the other 2 refines I could not remember what had happened. I know that I have a very large corningware dish over 1 inch deep that has gold in it, it has dark regular colored silver that looks like it has just been dropped with copper after a Nitric bath, and on top of that I have areas of what I believe is Pure White Silver Chloride.I have at least 1-1/2 pound of this stuff.
I was thinking of several different methods to try to get the Gold out and the Silver Chloride back to elemental silver? If I had to give % of white substance to the regular silver colored silver I would say that 30-35% of the white substance. I had left everthing covered with water before I left.
I am pretty sure my homemade nitric caused this to begin with but that doesn't matter. What matters is how I get out of it without losing all the gold which is the most important for me to save. There is a good bit in the lot. I have read back over my previous post and in the building I see I was in the middle of setting up my condenser to make purer Nitric so I must have been going to try and dissolve the silver and then filter and drop. Then recover my gold, which should still be in the large corningware dish.
I did this today, I rinsed in cold water, let settle and repeated, repeated, then repeated again. So I have rinsed refine 3 times in cold water. Keeping all the decants. I will check for silver before decanting. I still have the insoluble white silver compound. I thought about adding heat tomorrow to see if I could get some of the white substance to dissolve?
I thought about using the iron as you mentioned earlier but being mixed with that much elemental silver the chances of all the white substance contacting the iron would be minimal or would it Butcher?
Butcher, how about using (AR) to go after the gold first since the gold is really fine? If I drag some silver over I could take care of that just as I always have? What would keep me from doing that. Wouldn't I be able to get most of the gold with AR, then go after the Silver?
Is there some properties that Silver Chloride has that would interfere with going after the gold first with AR? I realize I will have to rinse many times and end up with a large quantity of solution but I can evaporate all day if need be?
Or could I just incenerate (outside of course) a little at a time until I drive off the salts and then go with Nitric, to start over? Or just get outside somewhere, melt in small lots, make shot and then go with the Nitric?
Butcher your advice would be very much appreciated. If I feel as good tomorrow as I did today, I just may give it a try.
If I am not thinking correctly here you let me know Buddy.
Oneal
Butcher,
I caught the wife gone today to see her mother. I took your advice and just made myself walk over to the work building. I had to leave a couple of projects right in the middle of finishing them off. As I have mentioned before after the last operation my memory doesn't serve me well anymore. I normally keep notes on each process as to where I am on them, especially through the weekends so I don't make any mistakes due to not remembering where I was on a refine.
I didn't have the note option this time , I had to drop everything and leave it. So when I walked back into the work room today I was surprised to find out I had left 4 different projects going while I have been unable to get out. I was able to figure out that 2 of the refines were left sitting in AR. Then on the other 2 refines I could not remember what had happened. I know that I have a very large corningware dish over 1 inch deep that has gold in it, it has dark regular colored silver that looks like it has just been dropped with copper after a Nitric bath, and on top of that I have areas of what I believe is Pure White Silver Chloride.I have at least 1-1/2 pound of this stuff.
I was thinking of several different methods to try to get the Gold out and the Silver Chloride back to elemental silver? If I had to give % of white substance to the regular silver colored silver I would say that 30-35% of the white substance. I had left everthing covered with water before I left.
I am pretty sure my homemade nitric caused this to begin with but that doesn't matter. What matters is how I get out of it without losing all the gold which is the most important for me to save. There is a good bit in the lot. I have read back over my previous post and in the building I see I was in the middle of setting up my condenser to make purer Nitric so I must have been going to try and dissolve the silver and then filter and drop. Then recover my gold, which should still be in the large corningware dish.
I did this today, I rinsed in cold water, let settle and repeated, repeated, then repeated again. So I have rinsed refine 3 times in cold water. Keeping all the decants. I will check for silver before decanting. I still have the insoluble white silver compound. I thought about adding heat tomorrow to see if I could get some of the white substance to dissolve?
I thought about using the iron as you mentioned earlier but being mixed with that much elemental silver the chances of all the white substance contacting the iron would be minimal or would it Butcher?
Butcher, how about using (AR) to go after the gold first since the gold is really fine? If I drag some silver over I could take care of that just as I always have? What would keep me from doing that. Wouldn't I be able to get most of the gold with AR, then go after the Silver?
Is there some properties that Silver Chloride has that would interfere with going after the gold first with AR? I realize I will have to rinse many times and end up with a large quantity of solution but I can evaporate all day if need be?
Or could I just incenerate (outside of course) a little at a time until I drive off the salts and then go with Nitric, to start over? Or just get outside somewhere, melt in small lots, make shot and then go with the Nitric?
Butcher your advice would be very much appreciated. If I feel as good tomorrow as I did today, I just may give it a try.
If I am not thinking correctly here you let me know Buddy.
Oneal
Oneal it is great to see you get up and get some fresh air.
Well let’s see we do not know what this is if it is a chloride or not or if any nitrates are involved.
First I would separate any larger pieces (I use a cheap plastic kitchen tool a cup with a handle and a plastic screen), screen the powders separating the larger pieces or un-dissolved metals, if all are powders you can skip this.
Let’s give these powders a boil in water and decant the water while still hot (let any white powders settle), decant the liquid int a jar let this jar cool ,we may have a colored liquid indicating copper, and if you see crystals form after it cools this can indicate lead chloride we dissolved in the hot water, if rinse is dark colored or lots of lead we may wish to do another boiling hot water wash, if only lightly colored we will go to next step. (check and see how the liquid filters this will give us a clue if tin may be involved for our later steps)
Cover powders in water adding sodium hydroxide NaOH (caustic lye), we want to make salts out of any chlorides and if we make silver oxide that is OK too, get close to pH 7 or neutral, stir powders well, let settle and decant the salt water that has formed, wash several time in hot water, this is to help remove chloride trying to convert then to salt water and washing out the NaCl salts.
Decant liquid, set heat to low to dry powders when dry raise heat then to high keeping powders crushed, they may fuse and seem to get wet again like syrup, you may have to lower heat to keep it from bubbling if this happens heat till dry again raise heat and re-crush powders roast red hot with good air contact stirring red hot powders (you may see powders darken as they oxidize.
If tin was indicated boil in HCl, lower heat, let powders settle add a very small amount of water then decant the wash hot, give several hot water washes, neutralize again NaOH, water rinses to remove salts, and incinerate to remove chlorides. If no tin was indicated you can skip this step.
Now this should leave your powders as metals powders and oxides, you can get silver palladium if any, and base metals with HNO3, and wash's in hot water in hot water letting powders settle before decanting liquid to a jar, hang a bar of copper in this nitrate solution to cement out silver and palladium.
Here I would wash the powders using Harold's gold wash and then you can dissolve them to refine them as gold (PGM's if involved).
I would refine them twice with good washing techniques the gold should be very fine.
Do not forget to use your testing solutions.
Do not overdue or over work, but do try and get up and get some air.
I am glad you’re feeling good enough to get up.
Take it easy, and give those grand kids a big hug for me.
Your friend butcher
Well let’s see we do not know what this is if it is a chloride or not or if any nitrates are involved.
First I would separate any larger pieces (I use a cheap plastic kitchen tool a cup with a handle and a plastic screen), screen the powders separating the larger pieces or un-dissolved metals, if all are powders you can skip this.
Let’s give these powders a boil in water and decant the water while still hot (let any white powders settle), decant the liquid int a jar let this jar cool ,we may have a colored liquid indicating copper, and if you see crystals form after it cools this can indicate lead chloride we dissolved in the hot water, if rinse is dark colored or lots of lead we may wish to do another boiling hot water wash, if only lightly colored we will go to next step. (check and see how the liquid filters this will give us a clue if tin may be involved for our later steps)
Cover powders in water adding sodium hydroxide NaOH (caustic lye), we want to make salts out of any chlorides and if we make silver oxide that is OK too, get close to pH 7 or neutral, stir powders well, let settle and decant the salt water that has formed, wash several time in hot water, this is to help remove chloride trying to convert then to salt water and washing out the NaCl salts.
Decant liquid, set heat to low to dry powders when dry raise heat then to high keeping powders crushed, they may fuse and seem to get wet again like syrup, you may have to lower heat to keep it from bubbling if this happens heat till dry again raise heat and re-crush powders roast red hot with good air contact stirring red hot powders (you may see powders darken as they oxidize.
If tin was indicated boil in HCl, lower heat, let powders settle add a very small amount of water then decant the wash hot, give several hot water washes, neutralize again NaOH, water rinses to remove salts, and incinerate to remove chlorides. If no tin was indicated you can skip this step.
Now this should leave your powders as metals powders and oxides, you can get silver palladium if any, and base metals with HNO3, and wash's in hot water in hot water letting powders settle before decanting liquid to a jar, hang a bar of copper in this nitrate solution to cement out silver and palladium.
Here I would wash the powders using Harold's gold wash and then you can dissolve them to refine them as gold (PGM's if involved).
I would refine them twice with good washing techniques the gold should be very fine.
Do not forget to use your testing solutions.
Do not overdue or over work, but do try and get up and get some air.
I am glad you’re feeling good enough to get up.
Take it easy, and give those grand kids a big hug for me.
Your friend butcher
Oneal I to am glad to see you back to better health and feeling like getting back to your refining but please go easy on yourself and don't overdo it, don't forget we are all messing with dangerous chemicals and reactions that can take some time, so don't start processes if your not feeling up to it, do some gentle tidying and clearing up of your already started processes and get back to your studies on the forum, as we say your values are going nowhere unless you throw them away.
Take it easy and enjoy your time in the lab don't make it a chore and be careful around any processes that involve strong heat and fumes or smoke.
Give the kids a hug from me, wishing you all the best.
Take it easy and enjoy your time in the lab don't make it a chore and be careful around any processes that involve strong heat and fumes or smoke.
Give the kids a hug from me, wishing you all the best.
Hi Everyone and thanks so much. I will give those grand's an extra hug for Everyone tomorrow, I promise. They get many hugs from me everday I see them. But I promise that I will designate one special hug from Everyone here on the forum!
Butcher, I wasn't able to get out this week yet, but hopefully tomorrow I will be able get out a while. It has been raining all day on and off. Also it's been turning colder here so I decided to stay in until it clears up. Weatherman says tomorrow we will see some sun.
Butcher, all the powders are fine, no lumps at all. The only color is the dark particles of what I think is gold in with the white powders. You remember me telling you about the white substance that was on these pieces of jewelry before I started the refine?. I started to try and clean off this white substance but I was feeling so bad, weak and overwhelmed at the time I just said to myself the Nitric bath should just leave this substance in solution. I really don't know exactly what this white substance is since I have never poured or made any Jewelry?
Could this possibly be some type of silica or porcelain type material that was possibly formed when the molds were fired during the process of making the Jewelry? I know you can fire clay hot enough for long enough time and you can end up with fine porcelain, even glass like material.
Anyway, I will get on with following your directions hopefully tomorrow, second guessing doesn't get anything done. Thank you so much Butcher for your help. I will let you know as soon as I find out something.
Thanks,
Oneal
Butcher, I wasn't able to get out this week yet, but hopefully tomorrow I will be able get out a while. It has been raining all day on and off. Also it's been turning colder here so I decided to stay in until it clears up. Weatherman says tomorrow we will see some sun.
Butcher, all the powders are fine, no lumps at all. The only color is the dark particles of what I think is gold in with the white powders. You remember me telling you about the white substance that was on these pieces of jewelry before I started the refine?. I started to try and clean off this white substance but I was feeling so bad, weak and overwhelmed at the time I just said to myself the Nitric bath should just leave this substance in solution. I really don't know exactly what this white substance is since I have never poured or made any Jewelry?
Could this possibly be some type of silica or porcelain type material that was possibly formed when the molds were fired during the process of making the Jewelry? I know you can fire clay hot enough for long enough time and you can end up with fine porcelain, even glass like material.
Anyway, I will get on with following your directions hopefully tomorrow, second guessing doesn't get anything done. Thank you so much Butcher for your help. I will let you know as soon as I find out something.
Thanks,
Oneal
Oneal I think I can help here if the white powder was on the castings and on the casting sprues it's almost certainly investment powder from the casting cans, it's what they use to burn out the waxes and leave the shapes to be filled with metal.
