Non-Chemical Smelting/mechanical

[knofan]

Thank you butcher for the information about alu. Would you think it is the same problem with Lead and Tin?

I have seen videos where they dissolve lead and then precipitate it out of the solution. But that will require chemicals.

I was thinking if it is possible to use electrolysis for the copper and then use chemicals to precipitate the lead and tin?

If i use electrolysis for the copper. What would be the best thing to do with the anode slime after that? Sell is one thing. But if i would refine it further by myself. Then i must use acids i guess?

/Håkan

 

[knofan]

Okay guys, now i got the first offer on an electrolysis plant.

For a plant that can make 30kg of copper per day. 25000 EUR, that is $29 600. For a plant that can make 300kg copper per day. The price is 85 000EUR. That is about $100 700. This seems like an enormous amount of money.

Do you think it would be cheaper to make this plant on my own? The principle is simple but in practice there might be more complicated maybe. The big plant that i was offered had a rectifier of 5v and 2500A if i remember right. I have looked around but not gotten any prices for this kind of equipment. Does any of you guys have an idea about the price level of that kind of equipment?

I have seen that there was an thread about making electrolysis eq. I will check that out. Very interesting.

/håkan

 

[anachronism]

Hi there

If you're looking at gearing up to do this on a commercial scale, the first thing you should do is open a dialogue with your relevant Environment Agency and local planning department. You need to know that you are able to get both the relevant permit to operate, and a building that is suitable to do this commercially before spending any other money.

The outlay you are looking at spending isn't something you want to throw away by being shut down.

Jon

 

[knofan]

Jon:

yes, you are right. but i cant go all the way before i know what equipment i will use. But i have already been in contact with the authority´s about this

Investing and the being shut down before i can start would indeed be a disaster!

/Håkan

 

[anachronism]

I feel your pain. I am going through exactly the same process myself at the moment. 8)

Jon

 

[4metals]

Electrolytic plants are a series of tanks powered by a large power supply. The tanks are often connected to a central sump and the solutions are pumped through the system continuously. The limiting factor as to how much you can produce in a day is determined by the size of your power supply and the number of tanks.

One way to save money on setup is to purchase a power supply to power enough tanks to meet your end goals and start conservatively with a few tanks. The chemistry is the same and it scales up perfectly as long as you have enough power.

A unit that can produce 300 kg per day of copper will produce $686,585 of copper in a year at today's prices. First year, every year. Looking at it this way is $100,700 to set up the cells so far out of line? Sometimes the support of the manufacturer is worth more than all of the grief of doing it yourself.

Check with the supplier and ask how many actual cell tanks are involved in a 300 kg per day setup. Then price the setup with all of the infrastructure (support frames, pumps and power supply) for 300 kg per day but with enough tanks for a lesser daily production. Then you can scale up as the business grows.

The biggest problems startups in refining face is that of scale. Many set up for much more material than they can realistically bring in to process. Start conservatively and let the business grow into a system that can grow with you but not break the bank on startup.

 

[knofan]

4metsls:

You are right from a business point of view about the ROI (Return Of Investment), even thou i did not get $686,585 as you did, i did get something around 400k. Depending on the number of workdays, and the price i can expect been paid. It is still a good investment if calculating 300kg per day. But im a bargain kind of guy. I take pleasure in not paying a cent more than i have to

Your next point is important and exactly the same way im thinking, will i be able to feed this thing 300kg per day? No, probably not in the beginning.

Im looking around if there is a cheaper system and also a smaller one. Im also thinking of checking the price of making one myself. To see if its worth the trouble.

I have begun the design now but i am a little unsure about the math of the electrolysis. As i understand the voltage should be around 1v, to get rid of lots of gas around the cathode? And to be able to run a cell that can produce 1kg per hour you need around 840A.

In my own design i have a cell where the anodes are 1300x1000x5 mm (width, depth, thick) and i need to figure out how much it will produce if i have a tank like this with 11 anodes and 10 cathodes and X amperes @ 1V.

When i drew it i thought of this as a small system. But when i added ut the weight for all anodes and cathodes (steel) and also the liquid...man it gets heavy! And i did the calculation based on water only and not the real electrolyte. 60kg each for the anodes and 10kg each for the cathodes.

• Is there a reason that the electrolyte is pumped around the tank continuously? Perhaps to avoid fast contamination?
  Do you know a good source for the math behind this? I need to learn how to calculate to get this right. And also not come off like a complete noob when talking to equipment manufacturers.
  How about heat in this kind of cell. Do i need to worry about it?
  Do the electrolyte in this cell need to be a certain temperature?

Sorry, many questions at the end here

[EDIT]
The electrolysis cell that i quoted here, i told you guys it was producing 300kg per day. That is not correct. It produces 100kg per day. Sorry about this.
[/EDIT]

 

[4metals]

Using your 300 kg per day numbers and factoring in 365 days is how I came up with the number. Plating cells work 24/7. They don't take weekends or holidays off, they keep producing even while you sleep. If you listen to anything Warren Buffett says, he said "If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die." A well designed refining cell fits that game plan.

As far as a DIY setup on the scale you are talking, I would defer to experienced manufacturers selling time proven designs. And they will teach you what you need to know to run them as well. Maybe Chris can give you a good source for the math behind plating cells, I do not have that on my bookshelf.

As far as circulation goes, the solution will not experience localized differences in the chemistry if it is circulated. It is not a necessity but most do it. Based on the logic of doing it as cheaply as possible, I would defer on the side of circulation because the thousands of cells running today with circulation aren't doing it because it's fun, they're doing it because it works.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

I'm certain 4metals meant GSP, but coincidentally, one of the books I have is a couple hundred pages of JUST copper refining.

Electrolytic separation: recovery and refining of metals, theoretical and practical by Dr. G Gore

Page 149 he starts crunching the numbers
Space required, power required, dynamo types, copper purity of the feedstock, particular issues given by certain impurities, and much much more... It is VERY in depth.

A couple pictures, if it helps any





Hopefully that helps a little..
And hopefully Shark sees this too, I think it may be of interest to him as well.

 

[Shark]

Hopefully that helps a little..
And hopefully Shark sees this too, I think it may be of interest to him as well.

He has been paying particularly close attention. While I hate trying to crunch numbers, in truth, it is necessary for anything you wish to make a profit from.

Plating cells work 24/7. They don't take weekends or holidays off, they keep producing even while you sleep. If you listen to anything Warren Buffett says, he said "If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die." A well designed refining cell fits that game plan.

That working 24/7 is the greatest attraction to running these cells for me. Making money while you sleep sounds like my kind of "hard day at the office".

 

[g_axelsson]

I'm certain 4metals meant GSP, but coincidentally, one of the books I have is a couple hundred pages of JUST copper refining.

Electrolytic separation: recovery and refining of metals, theoretical and practical by Dr. G Gore

Page 149 he starts crunching the numbers
Space required, power required, dynamo types, copper purity of the feedstock, particular issues given by certain impurities, and much much more... It is VERY in depth.

It can be read or downloaded from here.
https://archive.org/details/artofelectrolyti00gorerich

Göran

 

[Shark]

I am trying to make a list of current reading material on copper processes that I have on hand. It is a quite lengthy list, but here are the ones I have managed to wade through over the past 6 to 8 weeks. Now I wish I understood everything I have read, but I think my head would explode if I did, :lol:

An alternative copper electrowinning process based on reactive electrodialysis

Copper electrowinning in a moving-bed cell based on reactive electrodialysis

Alternate Anode Reaction for Copper Electrowinning

Development and Commercialization of an Alternative Anode for Copper Electrowinning

An Investigation into the Effect of Temperature on the Leaching of Copper-Matte

Copper and Copper Alloy Tube, Pipe and Fittings

COPPER ELECTROWINNING: 2013 WORLD TANKHOUSE OPERATING DATA

ELECTRODEPOSITION OF COPPER
by JACK W. DINI AND DEXTER D. SNYDER

Copper Tube Handbook

Electrowinning of Copper Using Rotating Cylinder Electrode Utilizing Lead Anode

Electrowinning of Copper Powder from copper sulfate solution in Presence of Glycerol and Sulphuric Acid
By S.G. Viswanath & Sajimol George

 

[knofan]

Hey guys

During the past days i have been reading on what to do with the pcb both in terms of pre-processing and also what to do with them once the metals has separated from the fiberglas, plastics and resin.

First the pre-processing:
Problems arise quick as i have fond a number of ways to grind down the pcb without its components and then running it through a electrostatic separator. The accuracy is amazing as the purity of the metals are around 99%. Problem is that the machines require the boards to be depopulated before grinding them down to powder.

In that case, i end up with two processes in parallel. One for the board and one for the components. Not my favorite scenario. I could do incineration as 4metals suggested. Problem is to find equipment for a low volume operation that this will be in the beginning. So far i have not fond anything small enough.

After processing
This i will probably have to find help to do some real research for. Either i have all metals mixed or i have a bunch of ash and the PCB metals in one bucket.

PCB metals will not be pure copper. There will be solder in there as well, solder will be consisting of Ag, Tn and Pb and i am sure i can find other stuff in there as well. So it probably need to be further refined anyway.

Also, some calculations i have made lean toward that to be really profitable, refining Cu, Au, Ag and Pd will maybe not be enough. Tn has huge value (more than Ag) and will be difficult to ignore.

The only thing that i have decided as for now is: if i do start with this, it will be in small scale. With cheap equipment and with lots of patience. When i have a method that make profits then i will let it grow.

 

[Shark]

I saw a machine from China sometime back for depopulating circuit boards. The one I saw would do 20 to 30 motherboards at a time. (they also made larger ones) It operated on an electric heating element and the boards were placed in a rotating screen type enclosure. The housing, made from metal, was closed and had a narrow slot in the bottom for the components to fall out in to a bin. I wish I had kept up with who made it but I had no plans for scaling up at the time.

 

[knofan]

Hey Shark

Depopulating boards is no biggi, i have found equipment for that. My problem is to find a good way to handle the components after it has been separated from the board.

Do you have a business in this field now? What size is your business?

 

[g_axelsson]

The chemical symbol for tin is Sn, not Tn.

Göran

 

[4metals]

So many people jump to the conclusion that naming of elements comes from the common name of the element. But some elements were discovered and common so long ago that the ancients used Latin to name them. Tin is one, from the Latin stannum. If I remember correctly there are 11 or 12 elements named from the Latin root. Even gold!

 

[upcyclist]

So many people jump to the conclusion that naming of elements comes from the common name of the element. But some elements were discovered and common so long ago that the ancients used Latin to name them. Tin is one, from the Latin stannum. If I remember correctly there are 11 or 12 elements named from the Latin root. Even gold!

I could think of tin, silver, gold, copper and lead off the top of my head. Maybe potassium. Now (blame my inner linguist nerd) I need to look up a periodic table and find the rest.

Ah, got it. Antimony, copper, gold, iron, lead, mercury, potassium, silver, sodium, tin, tungsten. And I should have thought of all of those except maybe antimony, because they're all discussed on these forums! My only excuse is I don't do much with the mining subforum, where antimony is more likely to come up :lol:

 

[4metals]

OK I had to go look them up and I was wrong there are 11. Guess you should put some Plumbum in your gun and shoot me. This is the list, excuse the dots, I had to cheat to get them to line up.

Element..Symbol..Latin Name
Antimony....Sb..........Stibium
Copper........Cu.........Cuprum
Gold............Au.........Aurum
Iron.............Fe.........Ferrum
Lead............Pb.........Plumbum
Mercury.......Hg........Hydragyrum
Potassium...K...........Kalium
Silver...........Ag ........Argentum
Sodium........Na........Natrium
Tin...............Sn........Stannum
Tungsten.....W..........Wolfram

 

[g_axelsson]

Interesting, Kalium, Natrium and Wolfram is the Swedish words for those elements. Wolfram is probably not latin but has German roots, "wolf soot". (In Latin it's "Lupi spuma")

And to add an extra twist to it... Tungsten comes from Swedish "tung sten" for "heavy stone" but in Sweden we use wolfram while English speaking countries uses the Swedish word. :lol:

At the time there were many different heavy minerals with unknown composition so it was often named by "Mine name"-tungsten, for example Bastnäs tungsten which later were called Cerite from the small mine in Bastnäs where it was found and was the source for the discovery of cerium.

Göran