Thiosulphate Dropped--Testing for PM?

[Ferrell]

My husband and I are no experts and are still learning and experimenting, but we followed Dr. Poe's directions and seem to be having results. The steel wool collected gold as shown on my pictures I posted a few days ago. We ordered titanium plates (8"x10") that will arrive Sat., so until then we've been working with one steel sheet (probably about .025 thickness, very flexible) and a copper sheet.

Our first test we used two sheets of the steel (we didn't have the copper yet) and I posted the picture of what we pulled. You can see beads of gold under a microscope, as well as what appears to be iron, so apparently it pulled both onto the positively charged plate. There was enough to scrape it off with a scraper and get about 2/10 of an ounce, so it did build up. Very little clung to the negatively charged plate. Mostly just a light film of black residue you could wipe off with your finger.

We put the positive electrode to the steel sheet (which we've been calling the anode) and negative to the copper (cathode).

Last night he did a short burst on some of the leach we'd already used. He got a fine line of what appears to be silver on the negatively charged plate of copper and a line of gold on the positive/steel.

He's trying it again tonight and it's bubbling, but we haven't pulled it out yet to check. We're thinking the ph has dropped too low and the leach is cold, and temp and ph might have some bearing. We're making a fresh batch of leach tomorrow and starting from scratch with the steel and copper, then on Saturday we'll do it with the titanium.

Again, this is all new to us, we're not very knowledgeable on the chemical designations or much else, just reporting what we believe has happened so far.

 

[goldaa]

I plated some to titanium on the positive a stainless on the negative, got gold on titanium and the black deposit on the stainless and is silver. Processed one steel wool pad got a bright yellow gold bead weight .5 tenths of a grain.

 

[renatomerino]

Dr.Poe:
Cyanide is having great difficulty in marketing in addition to environmental regulations.
For this reason it is more convenient to use thiosulfate if yields and costs are similar.
I have produced silver thiosulfate solutions with silver nitrate but after 1 hour of silver sulfide precipitates.
Finally I made ​​a solution with:
50 g / l of sodium thiosulphate
25 g / l of sodium metabisulfite
15 cc / l of Ammonia
This solution reaches 13gr/lt silver.
The silver is dissolved in the form of silver oxide.
The solution is very stable and does not precipitate silver sulfide.
With this solution tests carried out, electrolytic recovery.
I have not used silver chloride because chloride ions corrode the stainless steel anode 304.

 

[Ferrell]

I plated some to titanium on the positive a stainless on the negative, got gold on titanium and the black deposit on the stainless and is silver. Processed one steel wool pad got a bright yellow gold bead weight .5 tenths of a grain.

Hey, that's great to hear! We got black on our negative charged plate as well, but didn't think about it maybe being silver.

I'd love to know how you processed the steel wool pad? We put ours in our leach and it came out with a lot of pockets of gold but we haven't processed it yet. We hit it with a torch to burn off the chemicals but that's as far as we've gone. Can you post what you did?

Thanks!

 

[samuel-a]

I'd love to know how you processed the steel wool pad? We put ours in our leach and it came out with a lot of pockets of gold but we haven't processed it yet. We hit it with a torch to burn off the chemicals but that's as far as we've gone. Can you post what you did?

Thanks!

Ferrell, i maybe mistaken suggesting that, but i think it will work out well for you.

Put the steel wool in a solution of 10% sulfuric acid and leave on mild heat for about 24-36 hours, it will leach most of the iron.
Then proceed with Dr. Poe melting suggestion.

You might be better off trying this first with a test sample.

 

[Dr. Poe]

I myself have always plated copper and silver on the cathode and gold complex ions (as well as colloidal gold) was always decomposed upon the anode. Anything with a negative charge migrates to the positive plate.
The difference between gold chloride and acid gold chloride is the charge: Au2Cl6+ ; HAuCl4 -
Dr. Poe

 

[Dr. Poe]

This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
http://www.reactivemetals.com/

I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.

I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
Thanks Wyndham

That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
Dr. Poe

That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).

The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe

 

[goldaa]

Processed the steel wool in a microwave kiln that I made. Its like the one at Microwave Gold kiln.com on the web. you have to only run it for 3 minutes at a time,for 4 times to burn up the wool. dont run it for more than 3 minutes or you will burn a hole in your crucable I took it out and stured use some tongs an gloves. Still had a little wool when I mixed the flux with it used litharge sand soda ash small amount of borax and added flower for the litharge then cupeled. And ware your safety glasses or face shield. I bought the microwave at a thrift store for $5 dollars then added the insulation.

 

[goldsilverpro]

This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
http://www.reactivemetals.com/

I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.

I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
Thanks Wyndham

That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
Dr. Poe

That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).

The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe

The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.

In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.

In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.

Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction.

There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.

What is your purpose on the forum, Poe? It seems that it is to provide erroneous information, clothed in massive gobbledygook and self proclaimed authority, to confuse. Do you have some past grudge against the forum? Were you booted from the forum at some point under a different username? By any chance, was your past username Sue?

 

[Dr. Poe]

This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
http://www.reactivemetals.com/

I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.

I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
Thanks Wyndham

That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
Dr. Poe

That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).

The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe

The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.

In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.

In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.

Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction.

There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.

You are confusing deposition with reduction. Positive ions are reduced at the negative electrode.
Negative ions are oxidized at the Positive electrode. To deposit gold, it must be brought to the 0 valency state.
When the complex ion is in the negative state in solution, electrons must be taken away to deposit the metal.
minus 3 plus a positive 3 equals zero. minus 1 plus a positive one equals zero. You cannot 'reduce' to zero from a negative number. Not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything. I don't believe that you were told every little detail either. Physics and results prove my point. I don't need to explain any further. Any further discussion of this matter would be pointless. Dr. Poe

 

[goldsilverpro]

This is a golds mine of info,I'm quite amazed.
If I can add a bit of info, there is a company called reactive metals that sell all types of titanium sheets and sizes.
http://www.reactivemetals.com/

I have dealt with them over the years and found them good folks to work with.

I do have one question on using the titanium. If the cathode is titanium what is the anode? I may have missed it in the different post.
Thanks Wyndham

That's incorrect, plating occurs on the anode with negative charged compounds of gold. The cathode is quite insignificant.
Dr. Poe

That's strange, Poe. In all my years in the plating industry, I've never seen any metal deposit on the anode, as metal. It just doesn't happen. In most all gold plating baths, the gold is in the solution as a negative complex cyanide ion and the plating always occurs on the cathode. When plating silver from thiosulfate fixer solutions, in which the silver is in the solution as a negative complex ion, the silver, as metal, always deposits on the cathode. In that system, a rotating cathode is usually used to forcefully replenish the negative ions, which are repelled by the negative cathode, at the cathode surface (the cathode film).

The name cathode is often given to the deposition electrode regardless of the charge. A great debate lasted nearly two years. It was finally settled that whichever electrode cause the reduction to metal would be named the cathode.
I prefer to keep the anode as the positive electrode and the cathode as the negative electrode. In commerce, chromium (in solution as chromic acid attacks the anode as does all acids. In doing so, a deposit is made. In jewelry, rhodium is plated upon lower karat gold also on the positive pole. Hey, I understand the confusion as I struggled a long time with just this same conundrum. In a mix of gold chloride and acid gold chloride, the gold plates upon both electrodes. Dr. Poe

The negative lead from the rectifier is connected to the cathode and the positive lead to the anode. In the plating industry, the cathode is always deemed negative (-) and the anode positive (+). Oxidation occurs at the anode and reduction at the cathode. There is no confusion on my end.

In commerce, the chromium metal is ALWAYS deposited on the cathode, without exception. The inert (non-dissolving) anodes are made of lead or some lead alloy. The only thing that forms on the anode is a thin layer of lead chromate.

In jewelry, rhodium is ALWAYS deposited on the negative cathode and NEVER on the anode. To prevent anodic attack by the sulfuric or phosphoric acid used to make up the rhodium plating bath, inert anodes are used - usually platinum coated Ti or Ta.

Although the gold in plating baths or such things as the Wohlwill cell is in the form of a negative complex ion, Au(CN)2-, Au(Cl4)-, the valence of Au in these complexes is still +1 or +3. To deposit as metal, this gold must pick up electrons and, thus, be reduced to metal and the only place this can happen is in a very thin layer next to the cathode. This layer is called the "cathode film." It's thickness can vary, depending on the solution, but it generally doesn't exceed .01". All cathode reactions occur within the cathode film. The cathode film must be constantly replenished with fresh complex gold ions, otherwise burning of the deposit can occur. Even though the negative complex gold ions are generally repelled by the cathode, the cathode film is well replenished by such things as a high gold concentration, heating the solution, and agitation. Whether the cathode film is properly replenished or not, NO gold metal will deposit on the anode, at least not through the electroplating reaction.

There are NO plating baths in industry that directly deposit metals, as metals, on the anode. The deposition of metal, as metal, requires a reduction reaction, which only occurs at the cathode. It is possible for by-products formed at the anode to combine with the dissolved metal and form a non-metallic precipitate. An example of this is the decomposition of the thiosulfate to sulfide, which combines with the silver to form the insoluble silver sulfide. However, this is a precipitation reaction and not an electroplating reaction.

You are confusing deposition with reduction. Positive ions are reduced at the negative electrode.
Negative ions are oxidized at the Positive electrode. To deposit gold, it must be brought to the 0 valency state.
When the complex ion is in the negative state in solution, electrons must be taken away to deposit the metal.
minus 3 plus a positive 3 equals zero. minus 1 plus a positive one equals zero. You cannot 'reduce' to zero from a negative number. Not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything. I don't believe that you were told every little detail either. Physics and results prove my point. I don't need to explain any further. Any further discussion of this matter would be pointless. Dr. Poe

More gobbledygook. You've used this ploy of "not everyone in any business is given full knowledge of everything" BS before. Now that you're beat, you're going to take your ball and go home. The fact remains that in NO commercial electroplating operation is the metal in question deposited directly on the anode, as metal. You were 100% WRONG about commercial chrome plating and rhodium plating. Why not admit it? If you were wrong about something as elementary as this, what else have you been wrong about?

I would suggest you bone up on Electroplating 101. I have in front of me a copy of Lowenheims, "Modern Electroplating", which is probably the definitive work on the subject. In it, it technically explains in detail the electrode reactions of many of the complex negative metal ions. Although each is somewhat different, these complex ions, themselves, are generally reduced at the cathode film though a series of steps which end up liberating the positive metal ion and provides electrons to deposit it, as metal, on the CATHODE. These reactions are complicated and are not fully understood in some cases. However, the metal, as metal, always ends up being deposited on the cathode and NEVER the anode.

 

[butcher]

Dr. Poe, it is with my regret to make the statements I have here, in this post, but I feel I should.

I am unsure of gold thiosulfate complex (Au(S2O3)2 solution's but I can see no difference in the reduction of gold from these solutions and the electrochemistry involved than with gold from an acidic condition.
The metals dissolved into solution contain metal missing an electron, and an anion with excess electrons.
In my mind the metals in solution (missing an electron) gain an electron at the cathode and are reduced back to metal.
The anion (sulfide, sulfate, chloride, Etcetera) in solution is oxidized (loses an electron).
(The metal liberated from acid), onto or at the cathode.
This anion now can move to the anode and take another electron from the metal that the anode is made of and dissolve this metal (now missing an electron into solution), unless an inert anode is used, in this case the solution is just depleted of its metals (under these voltages and conditions)
We cannot change the physics of electrochemistry; we can confuse names of electrodes, or which way we think of electrons travel.

In electronics there are two theories we can use, and depending how we learn them or use them, or you wish to look at it. You can say current moves from positive to negative (electron theory), (the old theory which I use), or you can use the Hole theory. That holes move negative to positive, (new theory some others use), these are just two ways to look at the same thing, which can get very confusing when someone is studying electronics, as different people or authors will use one of these two different theories, and the reader must know both theory's to be able to understand what is being discussed, use of neither of these theories is wrong to use, as they both are just two ways to look at the same thing (electrons only move one direction), this has a lot to do with how one man or other will read electronic schematics and follow them while troubleshooting or understanding how a circuit works, as long as you pick and understand one theory, and also understand when an author is writing which theory he is using (so your not confused).

It is my hope that this is just some kind of confusion here on the forum, based on something similar (theory and which way we learned), (or what we call the anode or cathode), I feel Dr Poe is a smart man and has much to add to the forum, and would hate to think he had some other motive here.

I feel there has been way too much confusion here on the forum with many of your statements Dr. Poe.

And I really hope it is not on purpose or that your using your intelligence as a destructive force, many times you overstate true facts in such a way to make them have more weight than they should, it makes me wonder are you just so educated and do not see what you say or are you just studying and talking about things you do not know of, or are you trying to slip in some deception in with your statements, I wish you would be honest with us and help clear this up, I also hate to say these things, to another human asking him to clear this up, I would also like to think the best of you, as I have seen good that can come from you, But I also see something else (I hope is not there), we do need to clear this air.

From my education level, and understanding.
Dr. has brought up some very good facts that can help others on the forum.
But he has also stated things (that although fact have little effect, and has made thing’s into mountains out of mole hills, or even more confusing).

The purpose of the forum is to help other’s not to confuse things further.

Although I would like to hear more of the discussion of electrolysis, and understand it better, and for you Dr, Poe to explain your view on this, but I feel there are more important things we need to clear up first, are you an honest scientist or a troll on the forum, It is my hope you’re an honest man.

Butcher

 

[publius]

I hope this thread gets locked soon...

 

[AlZabrisky]

I hope this thread gets locked soon...

On the contrary, an individual's integrity is on the line. An explanation is due on both counts, the science of electroplating as well as moral intent. Poe has shared much with this forum, but when long standing members like GSP and Butcher are concerned, it is time to come clean.
Perhaps the question of integrity is premature ( I hope), however, the discussion on electroplating may become quite enlightening and we may all benefit from the outcome.

Dr. AlZabrisky.

 

[Dr. Poe]

I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe

 

[publius]

Dr. AlZabrisky,

I too will benefit from the discussion of the science behind electrowinning/plating and the recovery from the thiosulphate solution. I find it fascinating.

What I dislike it the acrimony. If the discussion could be carried on in a civil manner I would have no problem with this thread at all.

Robert Jeffery, CWI

 

[jeneje]

I guess the polarization of gold is too much to grasp for some. It's their insistence that gold must be reduced to a metallic in all cases. Their insistence that gold salts cannot be anionic and react like sulfur. Such stubbornness cannot be changed by reason and I don't intend to try anymore. I don't care if this thread is locked or not. I visit the forum to teach those that need my help, not to argue. Dr. Poe

:shock:

 

[goldsilverpro]

I kinda like having Dr.Poe around. The forum was getting boring to me and he has certainly livened it up. I think Dr.Poe has posed some interesting, thought-provoking, unique ideas. However, what he doesn't realize, is that there are several members that are at least as "world class" as he is. Because of this and because there are several other members that can fill in the gaps, BS never flies. Make a false statement here and you'll get called on it. This is a strong community that has its standards. Dr.Poe will fit in fine once he realizes his comeuppance. It took me about 3 months to realize mine.

Before ICMJ was ICMJ, it was just CMJ - California Mining Journal. For several years, in the early 80s, there was a guy named Lasley (I think) that had a fair-sized monthly column. He owned an obscure technical institute in Salt Lake City and he basically played around with ore processes. Many articles dealt with thiosulfate and I've heard that he invented the SSN processes. He was obviously a smart knowledgeable man, with flashes of brilliance. However, in his articles, you never really learned how to do anything. He would just tease you and skirt around the issues. He would quote long windy obscure theories, all clouded in mystery and innuendo and mumbo-jumbo. You tried to read between the lines without much luck. In the end, you learned nothing. Maybe he put the needed step1, step2,___ stuff in his newsletter that he sold.

 

[jimmydolittle]

Right on Chris. :lol:

 

[AlZabrisky]

Veiled apologies. I am relieved.
Poe's explanation will suffice.

Dr AlZabrisky.