Thiosulphate Dropped--Testing for PM?

[qst42know]

Their 50 pound bags of chopped steel wool looks to be the best price.

http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Chopped+Steel+Wool

How much leaching are you planning?

 

[rusty]

You might try buying your steel wool in bulk. I can't say if this is the best price available but 20 lb. at a time is likely better than by the pack.

http://stores.sobodistribution.com/Categories.bok?category=Carbon+Steel+Wool%3ABulk+Reels%3A20+lbs+Bulk+Reels

Thanks so much, I'll look into that!

At those prices for steel wool I would be inclined to salvage swarf aka lathe turnings from a local machine shop. Better yet buy a small benchtop lathe and make your own.

Just be ware that lathe turnings are sharp and they can make some nasty cuts into human skin. If you sharpen your cutting tool to have a chip breaker your turnings will break off into manageable short pieces.

 

[Dr. Poe]

Thank you Mrs. Ferrell ! Everyone has been wanting to see the gold on steel wool, but I had no working digital camera.
The camera that I had lost the pictures (loose battery connections?) This is a wonderful picture!
To answer your questions: A teaspoon to fifty gallons sounds right on. I think 200 mesh is excellent. Forget about the HCl.
It looks to me that you have already got the understanding of this system. I don't know your assay results with thiosulfates.
If you can afford the extra time, you could just use one pad at a time until no more gold is found on the steel wool.
[I assume that you are separating the fluid from the gang prior to cementation on the steel wool. Is this correct? Or are you trying to do both simultaneously (not recommended)]. Since you are using both methods of ammonium and the sodium thiosulfates at the same leach, skip the hydrogen peroxide, but keep the bubbling. you've got this Mrs. Ferrell. You just need to fine tune it to maximize it. Since all ores fall into categories, yet each is an individual, only careful experimentation will help you progress. Congratulations, and thanx again for the pic. Dr. Poe

 

[Ferrell]

Thank you Mrs. Ferrell ! Everyone has been wanting to see the gold on steel wool, but I had no working digital camera.
The camera that I had lost the pictures (loose battery connections?) This is a wonderful picture!
To answer your questions: A teaspoon to fifty gallons sounds right on. I think 200 mesh is excellent. Forget about the HCl.
It looks to me that you have already got the understanding of this system. I don't know your assay results with thiosulfates.
If you can afford the extra time, you could just use one pad at a time until no more gold is found on the steel wool.
[I assume that you are separating the fluid from the gang prior to cementation on the steel wool. Is this correct? Or are you trying to do both simultaneously (not recommended)]. Since you are using both methods of ammonium and the sodium thiosulfates at the same leach, skip the hydrogen peroxide, but keep the bubbling. you've got this Mrs. Ferrell. You just need to fine tune it to maximize it. Since all ores fall into categories, yet each is an individual, only careful experimentation will help you progress. Congratulations, and thanx again for the pic. Dr. Poe

You're welcome, glad I could help by posting a picture.

We haven't had an assay on the results of the thiosulfate, but did have lab tests run on our ore a year ago after using nitric and saturated salt, then recovering using butyl diglyme and oxalic acid. They did two separate 3 lb samples. The first showed 5-7 oz of gold per ton of ore the second showed 7-9 oz per ton. That was on ore that had been washed to the point it had the dirt removed, but was not taken down to black sand. I'd say it was reduced by about 25-30% from its original form after being crushed to 200 mesh. They are the ones who told us that SSN is the best leach to use for our ore, but we're wanting to get away from nitric if at all possible.

Now for my inevitable question! My husband works at a place where he can do a lot of specialty building of various pieces of equipment. His boss and he want to know if you can tell us the dc voltage and amps required for steel wool to pull and cement the gold from thiosulfate, as well as the same for a bar of steel. If they know that, they can charge a smaller amt of steel wool and/or a steel bar, with the correct voltage and amperage, and collect the gold--basically making our own electrowinning system, per se. Any info you can give us on that would be very appreciated.

Thank you so much for all your excellent advice. We feel like we're finally headed the right direction and making progress toward being able to recover our gold. We know we also have silver at a rate of at least 4 oz per ton, but aren't concentrating on that right now. We have yet to test for platinum groups.

Miralee Ferrell

 

[Dr. Poe]

The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+.
The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.

When you can find one and can afford it, purchase a "Refractometer".
The intensity of the 'Line' will tell you when the solution is at maximum concentration. It's a small device held in hand with a drop of solution. The light is refracted to a point and the intensity thickens or brightens the line. It comes with instructions.
When you get rich, purchase a mass spectrometer. Hand held must be programed for the metals that you seek. A hand held mass spectrometer cost $60,000 in 2010. The lab version can be bought second hand for around $120,000. Flame spectrometer's can be purchased for under $1,000. I used to have an electron microscope (back in the 80"s). Now days it's the tunneling microscope that makes it possible to write your name with protons. I get by with two microscopes. Both are considered toys. One has 1200 power and is conventional. The other is a 200 power that works by a hand held micro-television camera that puts the picture in color on my HD color TV screen. Each cost $20 at Toys-R-US. LOL :lol:
SSN leaches have problems with natural ores when using Butyl Di-Glyme (no problem with scrap). Because of the siliceous material that co-precipitates, it's recommended that the drop be made first with zinc chips. The products are then re-worked and then the butyl di-glyme/oxalic acid methods work fine. No wonder SSN has lost it's appeal for most refiners.
Also SSN needs to be heated to 80 C and takes twice as long to work for each 10C drop in temperature.
On the positive side pro-SSN, it can dissolve gold minerals that are insoluble in aqua regia or in alkali cyanides.
To be the most efficient, the average developed gold miner/refiner uses a battery of processes, one after another.
Usually starting with classification, grinding, gravity separation/concentration, then the 'tailings' are leached by processes that can be in 'tanderm'. For instance: NaSx sodium poly sulfide (which dissolves gold sulfides) can be followed by sodium thiosulfate. What you are doing is OK for now. Eventually your process will 'evolve' to a more complete recovery. Seldom will one process leach get it all (speaking only of ores). Dr. Poe

 

[Ferrell]

The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+.
The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.

Dr. Poe

So is this voltage and amperage you're siting for the steel wool or for a steel bar? Will it matter the size of the bar? Allen is wondering what the volts and amps are for the larger mass of steel wool....that they create when they're in the leach. He was thinking of trying to recreated that effect, but only using a small amt of steel wool, using equipment instead, and drawing the gold onto a small amt of steel wool, if that makes sense? Or of course, doing the same thing with a steel bar.

All of this is so helpful, thank you!

 

[Dr. Poe]

The voltage is slightly higher: 4VDC+ to 6VDC+.
The gold most likely will appear as a brown rust colored deposit instead of the yellow that you get from gentle soaking.
No matter, it will still melt to yellow. The higher the amperage, the more that it will 'burn' into the iron/steel.
Stay under six amps per decimeter (~ 4" by 4 ") " meaning inches. Also only count the side facing the cathode.

Dr. Poe

So is this voltage and amperage you're siting for the steel wool or for a steel bar? Will it matter the size of the bar? Allen is wondering what the volts and amps are for the larger mass of steel wool....that they create when they're in the leach. He was thinking of trying to recreated that effect, but only using a small amt of steel wool, using equipment instead, and drawing the gold onto a small amt of steel wool, if that makes sense? Or of course, doing the same thing with a steel bar.

All of this is so helpful, thank you!

Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe

 

[Ferrell]

Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe

I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.

 

[rusty]

Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe

I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.

What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.

After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.

You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6

I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.

 

[Ferrell]

What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.

After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.

You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6

I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.

Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?

You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?

We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?

Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.

 

[rusty]

What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.

After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.

You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6

I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.

Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?

You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?

We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?

Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.

Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.

Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.

 

[Dr. Poe]

Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe

I did some checking on the internet and it looks like a 12" x 12" bar of titanium 1" thick, grade 2, is about $1100., more than we have to spare at the moment. For now, can a steel bar work till we're able to recover some gold and buy more expensive equipment? We're trying to get started and have already put out as much as we can until we get something coming back in.

How about a 12" by 12" titanium plate 1/32 of an inch thick? If you must use steel with a rectifier, then use cheap steel plate and wash off the zinc with hot caustic. Better, just find a flexible steel plate, If you can't flex it by hand, it's too thick.
Steel is insoluble in alkali except at smelting temperatures and in watered alkali under low voltage.
You are going to have to re-add the copper sulfate when using electricity. It will plate copper on the other electrode (the cathode Negative side) If the gold doesn't flake off the anode (when you flex it and it's thick enough (gold)), then the voltage was too high. It burned into the steel metal. Don't fret if one side of the gold flakes are blue, the iron will flux off in the furnace. Dr. Poe P.S. Don't lower the steel into the solution until the voltage is on, else copper will plate on the steel
making the gold stick too hardily.

 

[Dr. Poe]

What you need is a thin flexible sheet of titanium which is then flame treated to create an oxide coating.

After removing the cathode from service, wash the titanium cathode, then flex the sheet to remove the metals which have carried over. Your cathode is now ready for re-use.

You can buy small sheets of titanium on ebay http://tinyurl.com/8xqvdg6

I'll be doing a similar process using titanium sheet to make copper starting sheets used in my parting cell. You on the other hand will be processing your gold sheet.

Super, thanks so much for that link. I just went and looked and there's a lot of different thicknesses, so I'll pass this along to my husband when he gets home. I assume you only flame treat the first time before you use it, and don't need to again?

You said to wash the titanium cathode....how long do we let it remain in the solution before it's collected all the gold? And wash with distilled water, or something else? Then smelt the gold?

We know we also have silver. Can this same process be used, but with different voltage/amps? Thiosulphate does put silver into solution, right? Or is it easier to just drop it with zinc or something else? But I assume if we did that first, it would mess things up for the gold extraction. So maybe better to just let the silver go unless we can do it the same way as the gold?

Are you tired of me yet? :roll: You've been so patient and helpful.

Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.

Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.

Remember that the precious metals are on the other side, the positive side. There are two ways to look at up and down electromotive series. Gold is below zinc metal in reactivity or the ability to corrode.
Gold is above zinc in nobility, the ability to resist corrosion.
Simple compounds of gold plate on the negative side of the cell. Complex compounds of gold plate on the positive side of the cell. Most gold in solution will plate on the positive side. Pure gold chloride (no acid) (Au2Cl6) plates on the negative side. Add a little HCl and the sides reverse, to the positive side. Confused Yet? Baffled me for years (30 years ago)
Au2Cl6 is called gold chloride. HAuCl4 is called gold acid chloride. Dr. Poe

 

[Ferrell]

Dr. Poe will be along shortly to clarify, I'm just a student sitting near the back of the room, with a few questions of my own but will not derail your thread by interrupting.

Electromotive series of metals zinc is above silver gold and the platinum group so it will cement metals out of solution below it, stripping your mother liquor of values.

Thanks so much, Rusty. And I apologize for not realizing that earlier suggestion about the thin titanium and the ebay link were from you, not Dr. Poe. Both of you have been very helpful.

 

[Ferrell]

Purchase a titanium plate. Flame treat it. It will turn yellow (oxidizing flame) from nitrogen, not oxygen.
Calculate 4 to six amps per decimeter. Wash and flex after using. Just that easy. Steel wool is for newbies to learn upon.
Advance students that get rectifiers use titanium. Dr. Poe

How about a 12" by 12" titanium plate 1/32 of an inch thick? If you must use steel with a rectifier, then use cheap steel plate and wash off the zinc with hot caustic. Better, just find a flexible steel plate, If you can't flex it by hand, it's too thick.
Steel is insoluble in alkali except at smelting temperatures and in watered alkali under low voltage.
You are going to have to re-add the copper sulfate when using electricity. It will plate copper on the other electrode (the cathode Negative side) If the gold doesn't flake off the anode (when you flex it and it's thick enough (gold)), then the voltage was too high. It burned into the steel metal. Don't fret if one side of the gold flakes are blue, the iron will flux off in the furnace. Dr. Poe P.S. Don't lower the steel into the solution until the voltage is on, else copper will plate on the steel
making the gold stick too hardily.

I called my husband during his lunch break and his boss (who has a warehouse of 'stuff' he's purchased at auctions) has some thin (flexible) titanium sheets we can have, so I think we're set. They're going to work on putting a system together per your instructions on Fri or Sat., we hope. I'm printing out all your directions and keeping in a file for reference. I'm sure we'll be back asking more questions before we're done (or after he catches up and reads the new ones from today), but you've given us an excellent start. Thank you!!

 

[Dr. Poe]

When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected]. Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe

 

[Ferrell]

When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected]. Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe

We'll definitely keep that in mind when we start making some 'real' money. We like to pay it forward whenever we can, as well as appropriately thanking those who have helped, or passing along that help to others.

One more quick question....is there a set amount of time the titanium plate should stay in the leach solution? How do we know when it's collected all it will collect?

 

[rusty]

When your needs are fulfilled, pass this knowledge on to others. Better still, improve on it and also pass it on. When your tax bracket goes up. Remember that I don't charge to help, I do accept gratuities, so does the forum. Noxx has to pay expenses to keep this site going. My personal contact is: [email protected]. Noxx has a site for donations to help keep the forum alive. Dr. Poe

We'll definitely keep that in mind when we start making some 'real' money. We like to pay it forward whenever we can, as well as appropriately thanking those who have helped, or passing along that help to others.

One more quick question....is there a set amount of time the titanium plate should stay in the leach solution? How do we know when it's collected all it will collect?

I think this is where the refractometer becomes of importance.

Of the three Brix scales which is recommended for metallurgy 0-42 / 42-71 / 72-92

This refractometer $66.40 listed on ebay covers the from 0- 90 of the Brix scale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Re...9?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item5d3044c229

This site has a list of the refractive index http://refractiveindex.info/?group=METALS&material=Gold

Gold: Because of its resistance to oxidation gold can be used as an optical standard or reference material in a series of spectroscopic measurements.
http://www.filmetrics.com/refractive-index-database/Au/Gold

 

[goldaa]

How much gold are you getting out of one steel wool pad? Have some that are coated pretty good havent burned them down just cureous.

 

[Ferrell]

I think this is where the refractometer becomes of importance.

Of the three Brix scales which is recommended for metallurgy 0-42 / 42-71 / 72-92

This refractometer $66.40 listed on ebay covers the from 0- 90 of the Brix scale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Re...9?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item5d3044c229

This site has a list of the refractive index http://refractiveindex.info/?group=METALS&material=Gold

Gold: Because of its resistance to oxidation gold can be used as an optical standard or reference material in a series of spectroscopic measurements.
http://www.filmetrics.com/refractive-index-database/Au/Gold

Rusty, everything you said here sailed right over my head, LOL! I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you dumb it down a bit for someone who isn't familiar? Maybe pretend you're talking to a 10 yr old? I'd love to learn, but need to start out a bit simpler.