Tin as a Collector

[Yggdrasil]

Now you have earned a break.
YOU are the one not managing to do what has been done for millennia, not us.
So I will give you a 5 day break to study and try.

So now go study!!!

I have banned Tomcat for 5 days.
I hope he use this time wisely.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Tomcat is trolling with rage-bait. Please stop feeding the troll.

EDIT for explanation: He is just saying things to cause an argument, and make people unhappy. There are plenty of articles and videos showing cupelling in great detail. He is enjoying making people unhappy.

I see this is your second post
Welcome to us.

Just in case you plan to use chemicals I will give you some material to study.

Here it is:

We ask our new members to do 3 things.
1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19798
2. Then read the safety section of the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/forums/safety.47/
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/dealing-with-waste.10539/

Suggested reading:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/forums/the-library.101/
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/when-in-doubt-cement-it-out.30236/
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...le-read-this-before-you-post-about-ore.33333/


Forum rules is here.
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/gold-refining-forum-rules.31182/

 

[sinnegam]

I am flattered, Tomcat called me a King.

Thank you, Yggdrasil. I have been reading the Hoke book and following the forum for some time, I have much to learn and little to say yet.

Back on topic, personally, at this point in my learning I can see no advantage to using Tin as a collector unless the material being processed has a large amount of tin in it (E-waste and solder) and develop the workflow around it, electro-winning and process the slimes, as mentioned earlier in this thread. For cupelling , use Lead or Bismuth and it can be reclaimed from the spent cupels, if needed.

 

[4metals]

For cupelling , use Lead or Bismuth and it can be reclaimed from the spent cupels, if needed.

Do you actually recover lead from spent cupels? I don't know of many who do that. Will you share some details so we can discuss the benefit vs the effort.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I am flattered, Tomcat called me a King.

Thank you, Yggdrasil. I have been reading the Hoke book and following the forum for some time, I have much to learn and little to say yet.

Back on topic, personally, at this point in my learning I can see no advantage to using Tin as a collector unless the material being processed has a large amount of tin in it (E-waste and solder) and develop the workflow around it, electro-winning and process the slimes, as mentioned earlier in this thread. For cupelling , use Lead or Bismuth and it can be reclaimed from the spent cupels, if needed.

Not everyone obtains the privilege of being called a King, good for you

Tin is often called the curse of refining for various reasons.
So unless, as you say there already are plenty of it there is absolutely no reason to add more.
Usually we dissolve it in HCl.

Edit to change word

 

[sinnegam]

I have not. Jason at Mt Baker Mining did a video on it ( ) and I have read abstracts of various research papers from Brazil mostly ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27652581/ )
I go down a lot of rabbit holes on the web.
Jason smelted his crushed cupels with charcoal to reduce the lead oxide back to lead. The research papers leach the lead from the cupels with acids, usually with Lead Sulphate PbSO4 as the product. Jason was doing it to determine losses of values, so by either route it should be electro-won (electro-winned ? ) to pure Lead.
At smaller scales, it may be a method to reduce Hazardous Waste disposal costs and recycle the lead, if you have space available for the setup. Not sure about cost / time / effort balance for most operations though.

 

[GoIdman]

No - in a cell you do not get "complete" parting of the gold from the tin & that is because at the "anode" slims are produced & those "slimes" are going to be made up of mostly tin

In other words - when you run the cell - yes - it deposits pure tin at the cathode - BUT - as the cell runs it produces slimes at the anode (which collect in the anode bag) the gold stays in those slimes BUT also MOST of those slimes are very fine particles of tin that fall off the anode during the running of the cell - so you still have to process those slimes to separate the tin in those slimes from the gold in those slimes

Kurt

I was just thinking about this....But if...and a big if, the remaining slimes are remelted and reused as an anode to reduce the tin content once again, and by this the gold content is concentrated.... (hipotethically, since i didn`t tried), and after a few runs the remaining slimes, which would have considerable concentration of gold that could be reclaimed by dissolving the smaller amount of tin with the use of HCl.

If it is economically viable, i don`t know...time consuming deffinitely ....but i think in large quantities may be profitable.

Pete

 

[kurtak]

I have not. Jason at Mt Baker Mining did a video on it ( )

Jason smelted his crushed cupels with charcoal to reduce the lead oxide back to lead. ------------ Jason was doing it to determine losses of values,

& here is part 2 of that video



Edit to add - Jason from MBMM is one of the FEW youtube video producers I enjoy watching (&/or trust) as unlike MANY other youtube videos he does provide quite detailed info on what he does including details of when things don't quite go as planned/expected which is good for & part of the learning process

Kurt

 

[minero74]

Good morning Guys
for smelting and cupelling successfully .

Need to study,and more study.
Many peoples get serious burn and breathing problems just for breathing those fumes
many have lead posioning from the lead fumes released by cupelling .

I personally Know an old timer,He was a miner all his life
He was doing smelting all his life,even His grand father,and His father before him.

He was burn his hand so badly,even when he had so many years doing the same thing almost every day.

why He get burned so badly?
because He get over confident and lower his guard.

for that reason He was so hard with me
all time He was advice me.
and if i do something wrong ,He make me study it again and again until I get it.
( old timer were hard as steel).

Key for everything in life is Study.
If You don’t know something,hold Yourself.
rethink everything and study the subject
to learn it the right way.
so You don’t lose Your life and lose lot money experimenting with thing that we don’t understand.

(Edited)

 

[minero74]

Jason is a great person and have many years of experience.
To be at His levels of expertise we need to study.
Jason learn from an old timer (miner).
(I never meet Him personally).

(For everything in life We need to study.
I’m not good with books,But right now
i respect refining way a Lot.

and i get into books,and read lot from here
C.M Hooke
this forum have such a huge library
of many topic that I’m impressed.

Study,learning and understanding the whole process is my priority right now.)

but He sometime make few mistakes
and He knows about it.

He was sometimes not using gas mask when he was smelting or roasting.
now in his last videos He starting using gas mask more often.

(Edited).

 

[J.Najam]

Hello,

Hope everyone's fine. I've a few Kg's of rams to process therefore, I spent the last two 3 4 days going through the smelting threads as well as dealing with waste (2nd time). I came here because I thought long and hard as I'd read about the separation of the solder balls on the ICs to be treated separately hence found this thread in connection with the smelting thread and now I have questions of my own.

First of all, it has been underlined, emphasized on heavily or more likely pinned onto the board by Kurt as well as a few others as how and why dealing with Tin has so many problems - a refiner's nightmare. Having said that it has also been mentioned that there is no tell sign of tin going into the solution or if there is any more left to digest as like it is with nitric digestion of copper - To which I only have a conceptual suggestion which ill point out below for an open criticism.

I had a series of questions but I don't quite think all of them fit in here correctly so I'll keep it short and ask from time to time. Maybe that's a better way, to go slow and steady winning the race. So,

1, Although it has been discussed a million times here that smelting MLCCs is the best way to go, I had another thought I'd like to share, ask and confirm - Treat the MLCCs mixed with the IC's using the procedure : Pyrolyze=>Incinerate=>Crush=>Wash=>Chemicals. The spotlight here is specifically on MLCCs given their ceramic housing, will it be washed away in this process like the ceramics on ICs too? No chemical usage so far to create the white ceramic goo. Only later be treated the same way until the end with the ICs?

2, Secondly, what exactly do the solder balls comprise? Why is the gold understood as a difficult to liberate process from the tin in it? what form is the gold in to begin with? Is it an alloy or an atomic bonding like what is it exactly? And why is it that a metal(TIN) that can be treated with HCL has to be treated separately? While all other base metals undergo the same HCL treatment, will the tin also not be affected the same way if given a bath with the others? Even if one was to go the smelting route, he would eventually end up making shots out of these. Will it not be enough surface area for HCL to react with tin? Moreover, the silicon dies also have a braze of gold, if that can be recovered with ease (silver coating removed with nitric, if any) why not the tin solder be the same way?

3, If I decide to go the smelting route and just make a simple Dore with excess Borax only skimming off the slag - Grind it to fine powder using this machine below to increase the metal surface area for easier digestion, what issue(s) could I be facing?

P.S conceptual suggestion : reverse testing : Like we use Sncl2 to test for the presence of gold in solution, how about using a gold chloride solution this time to test for tin? We will be obtaining the same result right? I'm sure many here do keep a bottle of of Aucl3 in a small bottle to check their stannous.

Thanks for your time on this one.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello,

Hope everyone's fine. I've a few Kg's of rams to process therefore, I spent the last two 3 4 days going through the smelting threads as well as dealing with waste (2nd time). I came here because I thought long and hard as I'd read about the separation of the solder balls on the ICs to be treated separately hence found this thread in connection with the smelting thread and now I have questions of my own.

First of all, it has been underlined, emphasized on heavily or more likely pinned onto the board by Kurt as well as a few others as how and why dealing with Tin has so many problems - a refiner's nightmare. Having said that it has also been mentioned that there is no tell sign of tin going into the solution or if there is any more left to digest as like it is with nitric digestion of copper - To which I only have a conceptual suggestion which ill point out below for an open criticism.

I had a series of questions but I don't quite think all of them fit in here correctly so I'll keep it short and ask from time to time. Maybe that's a better way, to go slow and steady winning the race. So,

1, Although it has been discussed a million times here that smelting MLCCs is the best way to go, I had another thought I'd like to share, ask and confirm - Treat the MLCCs mixed with the IC's using the procedure : Pyrolyze=>Incinerate=>Crush=>Wash=>Chemicals. The spotlight here is specifically on MLCCs given their ceramic housing, will it be washed away in this process like the ceramics on ICs too? No chemical usage so far to create the white ceramic goo. Only later be treated the same way until the end with the ICs?

2, Secondly, what exactly do the solder balls comprise? Why is the gold understood as a difficult to liberate process from the tin in it? what form is the gold in to begin with? Is it an alloy or an atomic bonding like what is it exactly? And why is it that a metal(TIN) that can be treated with HCL has to be treated separately? While all other base metals undergo the same HCL treatment, will the tin also not be affected the same way if given a bath with the others? Even if one was to go the smelting route, he would eventually end up making shots out of these. Will it not be enough surface area for HCL to react with tin? Moreover, the silicon dies also have a braze of gold, if that can be recovered with ease (silver coating removed with nitric, if any) why not the tin solder be the same way?

3, If I decide to go the smelting route and just make a simple Dore with excess Borax only skimming off the slag - Grind it to fine powder using this machine below to increase the metal surface area for easier digestion, what issue(s) could I be facing? View attachment 62939

P.S conceptual suggestion : reverse testing : Like we use Sncl2 to test for the presence of gold in solution, how about using a gold chloride solution this time to test for tin? We will be obtaining the same result right? I'm sure many here do keep a bottle of of Aucl3 in a small bottle to check their stannous.

Thanks for your time on this one.

The Gold is dissolved in to the Tin while soldering.
It should be possible to reverse test, but I do not know how sensitive it will be.
Sanding it will take a lot of time and paper, then it would be netter to mill it with a router.
There is another option and that is drossing with Zinc or Aluminum, it is usually done with Lead, but should work with Tin as well.

https://redesign.911metallurgist.com/blog/recovering-gold-scrap-electronic-solders-drossing/

 

[orvi]

The Gold is dissolved in to the Tin while soldering.
It should be possible to reverse test, but I do not know how sensitive it will be.
Sanding it will take a lot of time and paper, then it would be netter to mill it with a router.
There is another option and that is drossing with Zinc or Aluminum, it is usually done with Lead, but should work with Tin as well.

https://redesign.911metallurgist.com/blog/recovering-gold-scrap-electronic-solders-drossing/

This can be used, however with pure tin, it is not that good as with PbSn or lead alone. I have done this with Ag3Sn solder using zinc as extractant, but this was not very effective. Also, just simple skimming can unnecessarily enlarge the amount of skim. Filtration is superior, and heated filtration apparatus is not that super-complicated to assemble. Use heatgun with reliable temp regulator as heat source in closed system, heating the glass frit or better glass wool filter. Precipitates can be quite fine, but it depends on cooling speed and composition of the alloys.

 

[J.Najam]

The Gold is dissolved in to the Tin while soldering.

To understand this correctly, IF we are to liberate the gold from it, will the HCL boil suffice? I presume we'd be obtaining a black powder of gold resulting from this process (non-colloidal/non-metal form)?

It should be possible to reverse test, but I do not know how sensitive it will be.

I agree, only a couple of test runs can prove this

Sanding it will take a lot of time and paper, then it would be netter to mill it with a router.

I checked this out, can't visualize how an entrapment could be built to capture all the flying dust, so there goes some work should I take the smelting route.

There is another option and that is drossing with Zinc or Aluminum, it is usually done with Lead, but should work with Tin as well.

I gave it a read, that is just too much work for a very limited working space available with no smelting experience and also, it was my first on reading about a molten metal filtration. This link was shared earlier too as I saw but thanks again for the share.

This can be used, however with pure tin, it is not that good as with PbSn or lead alone. I have done this with Ag3Sn solder using zinc as extractant, but this was not very effective. Also, just simple skimming can unnecessarily enlarge the amount of skim. Filtration is superior, and heated filtration apparatus is not that super-complicated to assemble. Use heatgun with reliable temp regulator as heat source in closed system, heating the glass frit or better glass wool filter. Precipitates can be quite fine, but it depends on cooling speed and composition of the alloys.

I was waiting on someone who'd practiced it and there you go! Wow, it just gave me another perspective about the purity of collector involved here. However, I will have to read it again and again to get the best understanding along with visualizing the possibilities that'll enhance my understanding of this method.

1, Although it has been discussed a million times here that smelting MLCCs is the best way to go, I had another thought I'd like to share, ask and confirm - Treat the MLCCs mixed with the IC's using the procedure : Pyrolyze=>Incinerate=>Crush=>Wash=>Chemicals. The spotlight here is specifically on MLCCs given their ceramic housing, will it be washed away in this process like the ceramics on ICs too? No chemical usage so far to create the white ceramic goo. Only later be treated the same way until the end with the ICs?

On the other hand, if there's anyone who has taken this route to process MLCCs, kindly chime in.

Thanks for your time on this one.

 

[Ayham Hafez]

I was looking for article gives me an idea about new process I want to start with, so I found this thread a bit related to what am looking for.

I want to use lead grids and lead paste from acid batteries as a collector metal in E-waste smelting, I know copper of E-waste is enough to do that but I want to cupel copper and reduce its content as much as I can.

lead grids and lead paste from acid batteries has about
53% Pb
0.8% Sb
33.6% PbSO4
5.6% PbO (PbO2)

Rest is calcium, copper, bismuth and other traces

PbSO4 will take care about iron and nickel excited in E-waste so they will be in slags.

Carbon exist in E-waste will reduce the lead oxide and metallic lead when its oxidized while smelting, so at the end I will get a good collector metal and push iron and other base metals into slags.

For this process I can't use nitrates to avoid oxidizing lead.

My question is about tin, tin is more reactive than lead, so incase soda ash left some tin in the lead-copper alloy, will it be oxidized while cupellation process or not?

@goldshark mentioned that his professional assayer friend told him that tin will absorbs PM's while cupellation, will it really do that with small amount of tin ? Or lead cupellation will take care about small amount of tin before it absorb any PM's?