Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?

[Jado]

Personally I love the radical ideas, it’s the reason I’m here. I don’t get enough intelligent conversation out here in the boonies, and work is very staple process and proof driven.

I was hoping that there would be some kind of breakthrough idea regarding the obvious safety issues dealing with PAA in high enough concentration to process mixed scrap. There wasn’t. There wasn’t even an offer of why we need to investigate further. If PAA could possibly have any benefit to even a small portion of our environmental issues (whether or not it overlapped with the focus of this forum) I would have been on board.

 

[Ligandsarefun]

Thank you Richard. I appreciate that. I just was reading what he said. It's been awhile but I had a few choice words for our friend. From the time I joined this forum, you were always the voice of calm reason. Someone like that makes my skin crawl. I just want to reach through the monitor and shake them until their teeth rattle. You win a gold star for your patience as I would have tossed him the first time he acted like that.
I guess in all that wisdom he was showing off, he didn't seem to know about an IP ban. Oh well, sucks to be him.

With every test comes new insights. I do know how it works friend. I was seeing how yours or theirs is working. There are a few methods, and this one isnt very state of the art. You guys really enjoy feedback loops of opinions. That much is apparent.
I also have noticed that these are the creators of the refined refining book of calm hoke.

To that much i say impressive job all. It is in fact respectable work you have done. Good day.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness.

Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't. No problem, I was ready to.

I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.

Dave

 

[Ligandsarefun]

Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't. No problem, I was ready to.

I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.

Dave

I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
Gooday.

 

[Elemental]

Wow, I must have a terrible reputation for banning people. This is the second time in the last couple months I've been named as the person who banned a member when I didn't. No problem, I was ready to.

I also welcome any discussion of new concepts. But I can't tolerate rudeness and insulting our members. We'll see if he changes his attitude after a break.

Dave

My apologies @FrugalRefiner. I misread on a different thread that you had banned CattMurry. I assure you that you do not have that sort of reputation.

Elemental

 

[Ligandsarefun]

I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
Gooday.

Thanks. I was merely just curious, and then it turned into ww3. Dissapointing. I am very new to this, so I didnt realize they are touchy with the book, and work they have already produced.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I am getting confused on the perameters of what is rude or starts instigation. I get members saying you guys teach even less experienced people than I .... then I am getting bashed for general questions. Makes the site very confusing.
Props on the book though. It is an impressive piece, and good work.
Gooday.

See Gold Refining Forum Rules.

It's pretty simple. Don't insult people.

And now you're quoting yourself, and replying to yourself?

I'm banning your new account. Respect would be acknowledging that you've received a two week ban to think about whether you want to be a members here, not creating a new account to continue your posting marathon.

Dave

 

[Yggdrasil]

Do you ever sleep?
Well my analogy of a Badger with a bone holds up.

The rudeness was, scolding and bashing experienced members who happen to be moderators, when the only thing they did was to try to educate you.

Please do your ban time and use your time well.
I believe you may end up as an asset to the forum, but there are a few chips that needs brushing off and some attitude moderation needed.

Welcome back when the time is ready.

 

[orvi]

Personally I love the radical ideas, it’s the reason I’m here. I don’t get enough intelligent conversation out here in the boonies, and work is very staple process and proof driven.

I was hoping that there would be some kind of breakthrough idea regarding the obvious safety issues dealing with PAA in high enough concentration to process mixed scrap. There wasn’t. There wasn’t even an offer of why we need to investigate further. If PAA could possibly have any benefit to even a small portion of our environmental issues (whether or not it overlapped with the focus of this forum) I would have been on board.

Me too. I make living as research chemist. Experimenting is very important. But times when folks were mixing random stuff and producing unknown things are gone. It´s 21. century, stuff around basic chemistry is well solved. Not to mention the acetic acid and its effect on metals, even with various oxidizers added. Folks in industry are using PAA daily for disinfection, corrosion rates with rotating metal cylinders from alloys of numerous metals were tested before us and documented. Stuff is hazardous, they even did not like to ship it because all dangers involved ( i know it first hand, because we wanted some for epoxidation reactions). My first intention was to stop somebody, who is looking inexperienced to me, from messing up with wrong chemicals.

There just wasn´t any benefits of doing this aside of making fun and doing some basic experiments with scrap. No real point in applying this into bigger refining scheme.
Thing is, industry of recycling electronics already have the current best options how to do it, also enviromentally friendly in responsible corporations. We are more likely the ones who many times do it without scrubbing the fumes and producing nitrogen dioxide clouds. In modern responsible company, it is well resolved, and procedures like dissolving the bulk in acid are omitted from the recycling as much as possible due to exactly this.

 

[Jado]

Me too. I make living as research chemist. Experimenting is very important. But times when folks were mixing random stuff and producing unknown things are gone. It´s 21. century, stuff around basic chemistry is well solved. Not to mention the acetic acid and its effect on metals, even with various oxidizers added. Folks in industry are using PAA daily for disinfection, corrosion rates with rotating metal cylinders from alloys of numerous metals were tested before us and documented. Stuff is hazardous, they even did not like to ship it because all dangers involved ( i know it first hand, because we wanted some for epoxidation reactions). My first intention was to stop somebody, who is looking inexperienced to me, from messing up with wrong chemicals.

There just wasn´t any benefits of doing this aside of making fun and doing some basic experiments with scrap. No real point in applying this into bigger refining scheme.
Thing is, industry of recycling electronics already have the current best options how to do it, also enviromentally friendly in responsible corporations. We are more likely the ones who many times do it without scrubbing the fumes and producing nitrogen dioxide clouds. In modern responsible company, it is well resolved, and procedures like dissolving the bulk in acid are omitted from the recycling as much as possible due to exactly this.

Unfortunately, big industry is still very irresponsible. My job entails identifying ways to reduce emissions and waste within industrial processes with positive CBA, or a small enough negative CBA that the lawyers agree with the recommendations. Most of the time, the meeting itself and agreeing to further review the recommendations is enough to appease the environmental agencies, and no action is actually taken. Neither Canada nor the US enforces enough to meet Kyoto, let alone G20.

 

[galenrog]

Wow. Two week time out. Then you create a new account. And with the same IP address. Not a good idea. Remember, boys and girls, moderators here may know more about you than Santa Claus.

Time for more coffee.

 

[orvi]

Unfortunately, big industry is still very irresponsible. My job entails identifying ways to reduce emissions and waste within industrial processes with positive CBA, or a small enough negative CBA that the lawyers agree with the recommendations. Most of the time, the meeting itself and agreeing to further review the recommendations is enough to appease the environmental agencies, and no action is actually taken. Neither Canada nor the US enforces enough to meet Kyoto, let alone G20.

That is the thing about the companies and their drive for profits. Different topic, will be a long talk
I meant, we already know how to do it properly and enviromentaly friendly. In terms of reducing waste, emissions, toxic gasses and chemicals used. Big corporations dealing with ewaste certainly know about these advances. But have their established pathaways, which could be improved, but no one is interested, because they fulfill the lowest standards for safety, hazards and pollution = for them end of the discussion: we will go as cheap as possible

I agree here. On the paper, everything have green and shiny industry surrounded with thriving forests and fields, in reality, overall very little is done to actually improve something.

 

[Alondro]

I used combination of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide a lot in organic syntheses (create weak peracetic acid in situ). Also, acetic acid is common solvent for reactions I do. But i will never advise to use this stuff for refining metals. Glacial acetic acid or concentrated (above 90%) acetic acid is lipophilic = very easily penetrates human flesh/skin, causing very bad chemical burns. Drop to your unprotected eye and you can end up blind.
Gloves are penetrated with ease, as expected with every common polar organic solvent. False sense of protection is the worst thing that could happen to you. Applying the acid to your hand, unnoticed for long time is very bad. Aqueous acids have hard time to eat through the gloves, organic acids just pass through.

And as it was stated here many times, peracetic acid (as every organic peroxide molecule) is explosive. And relatively sensitive one, if concentration of peracetic acid climbs higher than 20%. Trace impurities, various chemicals or metals could trigger degradation, which could lead to big bad things

Without proper knowledge, do not attempt random mixing of chemicals and substituing common ones for some other stuff. Chemistry is non forgiving. And always do what it is supposed to, regardless of what you want.
Good thing is, peracetic acid is relatively hard to obtain from obvious reasons listed above

It's safe when mixing vinegar and 3% hydrogen peroxide. The concentration is too low for the potent reactions to occur. BUT, it's also so weak the reactions with metals occur at a snail's pace, even when heating. Adding some salt speeds up things a little bit, but it can't dissolve very much. It seems good enough for thin metal coatings, like gold fingers, because there's only a thin strip of base metals to dissolve. But it's useless for pins and thicker pieces of metal. You'd have to use gallons of it to dissolve a single pound of metal.

I'd say the best use is for fingers, since vinegar and 3%H2O2 are very cheap. It's extremely cost effective and relatively easy way to release the gold foils without risking dissolving them as well.

 

[Alondro]

That is the thing about the companies and their drive for profits. Different topic, will be a long talk
I meant, we already know how to do it properly and enviromentaly friendly. In terms of reducing waste, emissions, toxic gasses and chemicals used. Big corporations dealing with ewaste certainly know about these advances. But have their established pathaways, which could be improved, but no one is interested, because they fulfill the lowest standards for safety, hazards and pollution = for them end of the discussion: we will go as cheap as possible

I agree here. On the paper, everything have green and shiny industry surrounded with thriving forests and fields, in reality, overall very little is done to actually improve something.

Interestingly, processing metals with the proper chemical pathway is one place a solar heater array would be exceedingly useful. If you have lots of acid chlorides, transform the metal salts to hydroxides with burned sea shells (calcium and magnesium carbonates, which become strongly basic oxides after burning), and then use the sun's focused heat to vaporize the water. Violla! Just a pile of dry salts and metal oxide powder remains, which can then be reprocessed for the metals contained within. Sulfates and nitrates can be directly evaporated and the powders burned to generate metal oxides, with recovery and reuse of the SO2 and NO2 a simple process many people have done themselves just with garage chemistry setups.

Rather than spending stupid amounts of money of solar panels, just use mirrors to capture the Sun's heat directly and vaporize the biggest problem in metal processing: the huge amounts of water waste.

 

[orvi]

Interestingly, processing metals with the proper chemical pathway is one place a solar heater array would be exceedingly useful. If you have lots of acid chlorides, transform the metal salts to hydroxides with burned sea shells (calcium and magnesium carbonates, which become strongly basic oxides after burning), and then use the sun's focused heat to vaporize the water. Violla! Just a pile of dry salts and metal oxide powder remains, which can then be reprocessed for the metals contained within. Sulfates and nitrates can be directly evaporated and the powders burned to generate metal oxides, with recovery and reuse of the SO2 and NO2 a simple process many people have done themselves just with garage chemistry setups.

Rather than spending stupid amounts of money of solar panels, just use mirrors to capture the Sun's heat directly and vaporize the biggest problem in metal processing: the huge amounts of water waste.

Big guys tend to not produce pools full of liquid metals waste in the first place. They have optimized processes to avoid the creation of waste stream. Pyrometallurgical processes are used more often instead of hydrometallurgical to process e-waste. Electrolytic refining instead of dissolving/precipitation protocols.

Your proposed process isn´t bad, but i´m afraid that it won´t be cost effective.

 

[olalal10]

Yeah, it can explode sooo...

 

[Alondro]

Big guys tend to not produce pools full of liquid metals waste in the first place. They have optimized processes to avoid the creation of waste stream. Pyrometallurgical processes are used more often instead of hydrometallurgical to process e-waste. Electrolytic refining instead of dissolving/precipitation protocols.

Your proposed process isn´t bad, but i´m afraid that it won´t be cost effective.

Ah, I'm still thinking of the old processing methods with the huge ponds of waste. I'm old. lol