Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?

[CattMurry]

Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.

Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.

II is not better or safer and there are no real benefits.
Using it is just as useless as trying to prove it useful, or a safe alternative.
The time spent trying to argue a moot point could be better spent actually learning.

So, how would nitric be better at disassociating/oxidize, or just being corrosive?

Hydrochloric acid (HCl): pKa = -6.3.

Nitric acid in water has a pKa of -1.3

Acids under 0 get stronger.

I see it Acid prevalence, and Oxidation agent-
Nitric acid is a strong acid, completely ionized into hydronium (H3O+) and nitrate (NO3-) ions in an aqueous solution, and a powerful oxidizing agent.

Same reasoning why AP, or any chlorine + oxidizer work. People still do use Acetic, and H2O2 for home refining.... If you made a stronger solution of the 22 I'd assume the speed would improve. I don't have such luxuries to get HNO3 for $0.50 a FREKAING LITER. That's awesome for Europe though. Good on em me chap.

Shows why Nitric always need a base of water-
Does nitric acid completely ionize in water?
Nitric acid decomposes into water, nitrogen dioxide, and oxygen, forming a brownish yellow solution. It is a strong acid, completely ionized into hydronium (H3O+) and nitrate (NO3−) ions in aqueous solution, and a powerful oxidizing agent (one that acts as electron acceptor in oxidation-reduction reactions).

 

[butcher]

What is IMAO, sounds like something a young child says? Is this some kind of new language?

If you wish to learn and share with this forum I suggest you find some manners in your conversation.

 

[CattMurry]

What is IMAO, sounds like something a young child says? Is this some kind of new language?

If you wish to learn and share with this forum I suggest you find some manners in your conversation.

Butcher you have none whatsoever. Respect is earned, and never granted for no reasoning.
to whom were respectable I respected.
I also already mentioned a few times I am the worst speller known to man. Already beat you to that, but it shows how much attention you really have, and the things your eyes, and mind choose to highlight in conversation.

 

[butcher]

PH percent hydrogen, or the dissociation of the hydrogen or the hydronium ion can give us an idea or measure of hydrogen and or its acidic strength and how it may react to a base. it is not a measure of which acid is better as an oxidizing agent, or which would be better to dissolve certain metals.
Or how well it will attack a metal like gold, or if it could even attack gold.

 

[butcher]

I do not need your respect, I have enough of my own.

Although sir you would do well to show some respect to others, it may do you some good, and also possibly you could then earn some respect for yourself.

As I said I do not play games, if that is your goal here, you will not be here for long.

.

 

[CattMurry]

I do not need your respect, I have enough of my own.

Although sir you would do well to show some respect to others, it may do you some good, and also possibly you could then earn some respect for yourself.

As I said I do not play games, if that is your goal here, you will not be here for long.

.

I'm envisioning it like this: disassociation, or Nitric breaking into 2 parts in essence with the chloride ions present all does it's own work to do the reaction.
I think we can clearly see you don't need anyone's respect, or to respect anyone. This is petty, and that IS a game Butcher.... You didn't even mention who you think I "Disrespected" when I said the exact opposite. You are heavily generic in claims, and don't provide much context, or evidence..... That's playing. I also never said you need my respect. You are heavily deluded...

 

[Yggdrasil]

I have only been here 7 years so I missed the infamous Dr.Poe.
But as far as my time here you have created more ruckus and frankly, noise than all others I have met here.
And as far as I can see, without much gained or added.
You certainly seem to be smart enough to grasp the chemistry and techniques.
But like a Badger with a bone, don't seem to know when to quit.

So if your intent is to stay and learn, I suggest you wrap it up.

Just my humble 2 centavos.

Per-Ove

 

[Elemental]

CattMurry,

Bold (and stupid) move to insult a 15 year member of this forum who is also one of our moderators. May your god(s) have mercy on you, because nobody here will.

My thoughts: You ask questions that I would hear from first year chemistry student. A topical understanding but no foundational or theoretical knowledge or expertise. People have taken the time to explain things to you, but it feels like you just do a bit of googling and take everyone further down your rabbit-hole. I’ve followed this entire message and still don’t see your end state other than to argue a non-standard point of view on a dangerous chemical technique. Please enlighten me (us) of what you really want here.

Here is my demand of you. Read Hoke’s book, do the Experiments starting on pg.15. Add a test for silver and gold as well. Document your findings of various concentrations of peracetic acid as your solvent. Try not to kill yourself.

I think by just doing the above you’ll answer your own questions about this. This is real science! Feel free to ask questions afterwards about how to recover from the mess I believe you are about to create. Good luck, don’t die, and as a final note, stop pissing off our mods who volunteer their time and knowledge to us. Thanks

Elemental

 

[CattMurry]

I have only been here 7 years so I missed the infamous Dr.Poe.
But as far as my time here you have created more ruckus and frankly, noise than all others I have met here.
And as far as I can see, without much gained or added.
You certainly seem to be smart enough to grasp the chemistry and techniques.
But like a Badger with a bone, don't seem to know when to quit.

So if your intent is to stay and learn, I suggest you wrap it up.

Just my humble 2 centavos.

Per-Ove

Quit what? I agreed with the solution, and even gave you credit...... but okay?

 

[Jado]

Not necessarily positive.
But I get your drift.

So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............

?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.

But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.

You gotta have better reasons than those to diverge my interest in this process with this solution...... If anything you just enhanced my excitement lmao.

Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.

But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.

You gotta have better reasons than those to diverge my interest in this process with this solution...... If anything you just enhanced my excitement lmao.

Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…

 

[Immaculatepreforming]

CattMurry,

Bold (and stupid) move to insult a 15 year member of this forum who is also one of our moderators. May your god(s) have mercy on you, because nobody here will.

My thoughts: You ask questions that I would hear from first year chemistry student. A topical understanding but no foundational or theoretical knowledge or expertise. People have taken the time to explain things to you, but it feels like you just do a bit of googling and take everyone further down your rabbit-hole. I’ve followed this entire message and still don’t see your end state other than to argue a non-standard point of view on a dangerous chemical technique. Please enlighten me (us) of what you really want here.

Here is my demand of you. Read Hoke’s book, do the Experiments starting on pg.15. Add a test for silver and gold as well. Document your findings of various concentrations of peracetic acid as your solvent. Try not to kill yourself.

I think by just doing the above you’ll answer your own questions about this. This is real science! Feel free to ask questions afterwards about how to recover from the mess I believe you are about to create. Good luck, don’t die, and as a final note, stop pissing off our mods who volunteer their time and knowledge to us. Thanks

Elemental

1. The member only condescends when I'm new, and doesn't even point out what I'm doing wrong. This is just in essence a gang. A member who demands respect afterward as well then bans me with a message saying "smartass" showing who has real power of silencing. Just like highschool bullies.
2. God has only shown be abuse in this world, so don't worry.
3. I'm not even a student like I have said I am still very new, and I thought professionals would understand my questions with a little more patience, and heart. I literally have said I am no chemist, and am very new. 2 days ago I didn't know what an ion was.... They did help, and I said that their conclusions were accurate.
4. Google is all I have, and is why I showed what I was looking at to get conformation, or the opposite. That's what science is no?
5. You also did not read anything then, because I have said: I am looking for something to eat at CU, and At not using nitric. That was answered.
6. Seems like slow AP methods and stannous chloride tests will do I guess.
7. You also did not read one bit of me saying I don't jump the gun with experimenting..... I already said I only use a few milliliters per test.
8. This ain't real science at all. This is an opinionated gang who bans, and calls names, then defends one another just based on expertise, and nothing else. When butcher was normal in other threads I even talked to him perfectly normal, and was friendly. None of you can read, or even care to remember what is said.
9. Btw go ahead and ban I know IP tracking, and have many computers, and emails..... Awkward.

 

[Immaculatepreforming]

Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…

Yes. I would only prefer to use such a method with vinegar + H2O2 for possibly removing foils. I got it now. It really eats Cu poorly, and not really at all.

 

[Immaculatepreforming]

Sorry to butt in on safety AGAIN, but you’ll need 316SS, as both 304 & 302 will degrade. And there goes the cost margin…

Also I'd watch even 316 SS. Reference:
https://bssa.org.uk/bssa_articles/selection-of-stainless-steels-for-handling-acetic-acid-ch3cooh/Acetic anhydride (CH3CO)2O can be aggressive to either 304 or 316 types in the absence of any water and in the presence of chlorides.
Peracetic acid CH3C(O)OOH (peroxyacetic acid) should be safe with stainless steels.
Why I also provided a few charts with links to cross examine accuracy.

As you said though 316 is definitely preferred in hotter temps, and higher concentrations.

 

[butcher]

I can push buttons too, I just do not like wasting my time that way, I would rather spend it learning from our good members here.

Bye Bye

Immaculatepreforming​

I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[Elemental]

1. The member only condescends when I'm new, and doesn't even point out what I'm doing wrong. This is just in essence a gang. A member who demands respect afterward as well then bans me with a message saying "smartass" showing who has real power of silencing. Just like highschool bullies.
2. God has only shown be abuse in this world, so don't worry.
3. I'm not even a student like I have said I am still very new, and I thought professionals would understand my questions with a little more patience, and heart. I literally have said I am no chemist, and am very new. 2 days ago I didn't know what an ion was.... They did help, and I said that their conclusions were accurate.
4. Google is all I have, and is why I showed what I was looking at to get conformation, or the opposite. That's what science is no?
5. You also did not read anything then, because I have said: I am looking for something to eat at CU, and At not using nitric. That was answered.
6. Seems like slow AP methods and stannous chloride tests will do I guess.
7. You also did not read one bit of me saying I don't jump the gun with experimenting..... I already said I only use a few milliliters per test.
8. This ain't real science at all. This is an opinionated gang who bans, and calls names, then defends one another just based on expertise, and nothing else. When butcher was normal in other threads I even talked to him perfectly normal, and was friendly. None of you can read, or even care to remember what is said.
9. Btw go ahead and ban I know IP tracking, and have many computers, and emails..... Awkward.

I did read you note about being afraid to experiment. This why I asked you to do an experiment that only requires that much. What you have shown is a refusal to even consider advice given in good faith. Did you even look at Hoke? The test is literally adding a few mL to each metal and noting the reaction. Which by the way is real science: Hypotheses, experimenting, observing, and documenting.

Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness. The problem is your lack of respect for others time, knowledge, and status in our community. You are nothing more than a child bursting into a graduate level inorganic chemistry demanding to be taught something that requires years of learning.

You understand IP tracking and can avoid it. Cool. Tell you what, I’m a lead network engineer in the US Intelligence Community and I’ll offer up my knowledge and experience to the forum moderators for dealing with people like you. Mods, Please let me know if you’d like any assistance. I’ll gladly help.

As for you, CattMurry I have nothing more to offer you. Good luck with refining. Seems like you’re going to need it.

Elemental

 

[orvi]

I did read you note about being afraid to experiment. This why I asked you to do an experiment that only requires that much. What you have shown is a refusal to even consider advice given in good faith. Did you even look at Hoke? The test is literally adding a few mL to each metal and noting the reaction. Which by the way is real science: Hypotheses, experimenting, observing, and documenting.

Also, you received a two week ban from FrugalRefiner, his first ban ever, instead of accepting it, you immediately create an alternate account and defend your actions under the guise of naiveness. The problem is your lack of respect for others time, knowledge, and status in our community. You are nothing more than a child bursting into a graduate level inorganic chemistry demanding to be taught something that requires years of learning.

You understand IP tracking and can avoid it. Cool. Tell you what, I’m a lead network engineer in the US Intelligence Community and I’ll offer up my knowledge and experience to the forum moderators for dealing with people like you. Mods, Please let me know if you’d like any assistance. I’ll gladly help.

As for you, CattMurry I have nothing more to offer you. Good luck with refining. Seems like you’re going to need it.

Elemental

I doubt there will be any experimenting. For me it was like he was just defending the first idea what comes to his mind.

He said, that he will rather sell his scrap on eBay, so he has material in hand. Not very keen to explore science behind his hypothesis. With access to vinegar (or acetic acid) and hydrogen peroxide, he could perform any kind of experiment proving him right or wrong... But as I expected, nothing happened.
Not very scientific, argue about science behind and don´t perform any experiments. But whatever, we will see if somebody ever use the vinegar for recovering values from scrap ending up in green numbers i would be happy if it was that easy.

I know this syndrome from real world, because i also teach under/graduates chemistry labs. Students will come and argue about their completely nonsense/stupid answer to the question, persuading you that this tiny part is correct according to Google or some other literature. That this 10% part of it is right and they deserve some points for it, forgeting that 90% of the answer is complete nonsense. Not accepting that it was probably just random coincidence or guess.
They will dig up any kind of evidence helping them prove me wrong to earn the points. Aside of, they could LEARN THE THING properly and understand the process well enough, that it will in the end give something to them as they finish like bachelors or masters.

 

[Geo]

Thank you Richard. I appreciate that. I just was reading what he said. It's been awhile but I had a few choice words for our friend. From the time I joined this forum, you were always the voice of calm reason. Someone like that makes my skin crawl. I just want to reach through the monitor and shake them until their teeth rattle. You win a gold star for your patience as I would have tossed him the first time he acted like that.
I guess in all that wisdom he was showing off, he didn't seem to know about an IP ban. Oh well, sucks to be him.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I'm baffled by this guy.
Eloquent in certain passages yet with some streaks of adolescent language in between.
Seemed intelligent and awake, still he kept pushing his narrative until the dam broke.

When I asked him, in my eyes nicely but sternly to stop his campaign, if he wanted to stay.

He more or less indicated that I owed him some kind of allegiance since he had endorsed me.

I really do not understand the way some people act.
But I hope he gets his acts together.

Then he can stay, somehow I think he may be an asset on the forum, if he learns to restrain himself.

Regards Per-Ove

 

[Elemental]

So, what should we call our gang?

All jokes aside, I'm finding that more and more often, I end up joining a thread that ends up with the originator getting banned. I wonder if I am somehow contributing to the problem, or if this is just a norm that happens from time to time. I personally have no issues helping and supporting people and their questions. Hell, in some areas I'm the novice here and realize there is still years of learning ahead of me. I just lose patience once people lose respect for those who are volunteering their time and expertise, free of any commitment or obligation. I commend those of you who deal with this with high frequency but still come back to offer your advice.

 

[MicheleM]

So, what should we call our gang?

All jokes aside, I'm finding that more and more often, I end up joining a thread that ends up with the originator getting banned. I wonder if I am somehow contributing to the problem, or if this is just a norm that happens from time to time. I personally have no issues helping and supporting people and their questions. Hell, in some areas I'm the novice here and realize there is still years of learning ahead of me. I just lose patience once people lose respect for those who are volunteering their time and expertise, free of any commitment or obligation. I commend those of you who deal with this with high frequency but still come back to offer your advice.

My opinion as a beginner in this forum: you did right to ban him. I noticed that In the last few years social networks and disinformation spreading are causing more and more people , some of them among scientific communities, to challenge established facts at any cost and with arrogance.