Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?

[CattMurry]

This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond = oxidizer is spent without effect. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot.
3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.

Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers

And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile developing cracks, losing flexibility...
4. as it would be unefficient, it will be EXPENSIVE to use PAA as substitute for cheap and stable acids like nitric or hydrochloric.
5. as an organic acid and very good solvent, it will likely dissolve all kinds of resins, glues, certain plastics and paints. If you apply this to material with these things, they will dissolve into the solution. I dont want to imagine rinsing these residues out of any product I will obtain with this method. Slightest contact with water will cause back-precipitation of these resin/paint/glue residues as sticky water-repelling mess try to dissolve some polystyrene in acetone and then dump it into the water
It means that every product you will get from impure starting materials will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water. Additional cost and waste created.
6. if you are not fan of vinegar smell overall, than good luck with higher concentrations PAA is even worse, penetrating smell get all over the place... from organic stuff still one of the "milder" chemicals tho.
I dont say you cannot get used to it (as I am from years of working with all kinds of funky chemicals).

If nitrogen oxides are issue for you, then you could process material with HCl/oxygen. Or use nitric with addition of hydrogen peroxide. Nitrogen oxides will be oxidized back to nitric acid, regenerating your stuff and producing only minute ammounts of brown gas
For copper, diluted sulfuric acid with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards. Very similar outcome, but i dont think this would be cost efficient.
And if all stated chemicals here get you nervous, then you can smelt your material down and electrorefine it.

Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.

But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.

You gotta have better reasons than those to diverge my interest in this process with this solution...... If anything you just enhanced my excitement lmao.

 

[Yggdrasil]

It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.

And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.

Sorry mate, you can try, but I'm afraid you will be disappointed.
Probably better to add salt to acetic acid, it will create a weak HCl.

Per-Ove

 

[CattMurry]

It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.

And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.

Sorry mate, you can try, but I'm afraid you will be disappointed.
Probably better to add salt to acetic acid, it will create a weak HCl.

Per-Ove

Will do. Seemed to eat brass nicely. Only a drip or 2 of H2O2. H2O2 is what always will decompose rapidly..... because it is H2O2. It degrades when just open.... Just wanted to share my findings. Much luck with it, and stay careful!

 

[CattMurry]

It is a weak acid, nothing about concentration, even if it was 100% it would still be a weak acid.

And when you start dissolving something, the dissolved metals will act as a catalyst decomposing the peroxide quite fast so you end up with acetic acid, which is even weaker.

Sorry mate, you can try, but I'm afraid you will be disappointed.
Probably better to add salt to acetic acid, it will create a weak HCl.

Per-Ove

Also, just 5% from vapors started eating my brass I left above my boiling vinegar. Never heard of a weak acid doing that so rapidly. It will of course take longer than nitric, and I already stated that. With the speed you guys claim to be going at start a business. That's nutty tbh.

Again google- Peracetic acid can corrode copper, brass, bronze, plain steel, and galvanized iron, but these effects can be reduced by additives and pH modifications.
-It will always become weaker as solution becomes saturated.

 

[orvi]

Vinegar- 5$ per liter, 35% H2O2- 60$ per liter, safety- some extra for 302-304 stainless. They even make beakers............
?????????????????????NOT PROFITABLE????????????????????????????
This stuff chewed apart brass with a few mils. You just don't wanna throw it all in to lose efficiency. All those other chemicals are heavily expensive, require proper control (emissions) Refer to NIOSH guide of NO2- No ppm acceptable under (x) timeframe.

But honestly thanks for the part on efficiency. Duly noted.

You gotta have better reasons than those to diverge my interest in this process with this solution...... If anything you just enhanced my excitement lmao.

I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less.

I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
I was also enthusiastic about my ideas when i firstly stepped in to this field, but quickly dissapointed with unexpected things that happened. There is a reason nobody is using this procedure in refining.

I know you will persist and do this no matter what I will tell you, but i just give you my partly educated opinion.

 

[CattMurry]

I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less.

I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
I was also enthusiastic about my ideas when i firstly stepped in to this field, but quickly dissapointed with unexpected things that happened. There is a reason nobody is using this procedure in refining.

I know you will persist and do this no matter what I will tell you, but i just give you my partly educated opinion.

Seems an odd way "to "profesionally" discourage" someone. Even threw in some dangerous glove testing in there as well...... That is not professional. These are what they cost in the Us, and I can buy nitric all day. Did not see a license # requirement/warning, or anything of any sort. H2O2 is used to dilute into the 3% disinfectant which I use anyways.... You saved me from the 10$ 2 liters of vinegar.......
EU though.... God have mercy upon them with Russia's and China's nearing lmao. EU allows nothing in all seriousness.

 

[orvi]

Also, just 5% from vapors started eating my brass I left above my boiling vinegar. Never heard of a weak acid doing that so rapidly. It will of course take longer than nitric, and I already stated that. With the speed you guys claim to be going at start a business. That's nutty tbh.

Again google- Peracetic acid can corrode copper, brass, bronze, plain steel, and galvanized iron, but these effects can be reduced by additives and pH modifications.
-It will always become weaker as solution becomes saturated.

Brass is alloy of zinc and copper. Zinc is very easily eaten up also by medium and low strength acids, leaving very active copper nanostructures - and these could be dissolved even with vinegar and peroxide. No surprise.

Try to do it with bulk copper, or other ferrous alloys and you will recognize the difference.
The fact that it does corrode some metals... Yes, it could. Also atmospheric CO2 with moisture can corrode brass or copper to it´s hydrated carbonate-hydroxide. No discussion about it.
Will I use it for dissolving things ? No

Anyway, good tip was given - adding salt to your mixture to speed up the process.

 

[CattMurry]

I dont exactly know from where you get those prices, but for industrial tech grade chemicals... that is quite a price.
Obtaining H2O2 from hair bleaching products may cost this ammount, but p.a. grade 35% peroxide here (purchased with license of course, otherwise prohibited for public) cost about 2,5 euros per liter. Nitric and hydrochloric roughly the same, if not a bit less.

I try to "profesionally" discourage you from doing this, as this might lead to early frustration on the recovery processes always stick to industrial methods firs. Folks out there invest unhealthy ammounts of money just to figure out what is the best and most cost/work effective way.
I was also enthusiastic about my ideas when i firstly stepped in to this field, but quickly dissapointed with unexpected things that happened. There is a reason nobody is using this procedure in refining.

I know you will persist and do this no matter what I will tell you, but i just give you my partly educated opinion.

What? 5.6$ for nitric yet you say my prices are good? What the heck is that price? You buying like 1 molar?

 

[CattMurry]

Brass is alloy of zinc and copper. Zinc is very easily eaten up also by medium and low strength acids, leaving very active copper nanostructures - and these could be dissolved even with vinegar and peroxide. No surprise.

Try to do it with bulk copper, or other ferrous alloys and you will recognize the difference.
The fact that it does corrode some metals... Yes, it could. Also atmospheric CO2 with moisture can corrode brass or copper to it´s hydrated carbonate-hydroxide. No discussion about it.
Will I use it for dissolving things ? No

Anyway, good tip was given - adding salt to your mixture to speed up the process.

I already said I would remove ferromagnetics. You don't read yet "Professionally discourage" people. I just need something to deal with Cu. Possibly Ag could get annoying as well.

Good tip?! HCL DOES NOTHING TO COPPER WHAT. He stated it makes HCL. Do you read people's posts?!

 

[orvi]

Seems an odd way "to "profesionally" discourage" someone. Even threw in some dangerous glove testing in there as well...... That is not professional. These are what they cost in the Us, and I can buy nitric all day. Did not see a license # requirement/warning, or anything of any sort. H2O2 is used to dilute into the 3% disinfectant which I use anyways.... You saved me from the 10$ 2 liters of vinegar.......
EU though.... God have mercy upon them with Russia's and China's nearing lmao. EU allows nothing in all seriousness.

To the "gloves" issue... I have experience with all kind of organic stuff. To this day, no gloves that are economically feasible to use in the lab will not protect you from certain chemicals. Try to wash the glass with acetone in any gloves and you will quickly see them disintegrate and swell.
Acetic acid is not considered toxic and burns develop only after prolonged exposures (dozens of minutes with shi**y cheap thin gloves). Every glove, even the most shi**y latex one will give you good level of protection for few minutes, but the "smell test" was here to prove you that it would leak the acid over time. Ppm ammounts from start, when latex/nitrile swell, bunch more. Gloves just BUY YOU TIME to get them off your hands when you spill something on them. Altough with mineral acids like HCl, this time is much much greater. I apologize if you get this from the wrong angle. I will never advise anything which could harm you.

 

[CattMurry]

To the "gloves" issue... I have experience with all kind of organic stuff. To this day, no gloves that are economically feasible to use in the lab will not protect you from certain chemicals. Try to wash the glass with acetone in any gloves and you will quickly see them disintegrate and swell.
Acetic acid is not considered toxic and burns develop only after prolonged exposures (dozens of minutes with shi**y cheap thin gloves). Every glove, even the most shi**y latex one will give you good level of protection for few minutes, but the "smell test" was here to prove you that it would leak the acid over time. Ppm ammounts from start, when latex/nitrile swell, bunch more. Gloves just BUY YOU TIME to get them off your hands when you spill something on them. Altough with mineral acids like HCl, this time is much much greater. I apologize if you get this from the wrong angle. I will never advise anything which could harm you.

Im still wondering how you were astonished by my prices.... Where are you getting lab grade nitric 67ish% to 70% for 5$ a liter? I get HCL 32%, and clear as glass for 5$ a liter, and I thought that was decent. Lmao. I wear lots of gloves. Any initial spills I neutralize, and dilute after with water. No real worries with weaker non-fuming acids there.

Also, give me resolve then. What would you use for Cu that is not Sulfuric, or Nitric?

 

[orvi]

What? 5.6$ for nitric yet you say my prices are good? What the heck is that price? You buying like 1 molar?

Srry, i used bad formulation. English is not my first language. I meant it is quite expensive.
I reffer to standard 65-68% nitric, sp.grav 1,5.
Things are very different here and in US as i read these discussions. For some reason nitric is quite expensive in the US. I somehow dont get it. You aslo must use fertilizers and stuff, in manufacture of those nitric is involved in vast quantities. Somebody in the chain is ripping people off quite a lot when it comes to buy straight nitric for ordinary person.
Straight from the factory, bulk price for tech grade 50% nitric is near half euro per liter. I am wondering where the price add up so exponentionally in the chain but this is for another discussion.

 

[CattMurry]

Srry, i used bad formulation. English is not my first language. I meant it is quite expensive.
I reffer to standard 65-68% nitric, sp.grav 1,5.
Things are very different here and in US as i read these discussions. For some reason nitric is quite expensive in the US. I somehow dont get it. You aslo must use fertilizers and stuff, in manufacture of those nitric is involved in vast quantities. Somebody in the chain is ripping people off quite a lot when it comes to buy straight nitric for ordinary person.
Straight from the factory, bulk price for tech grade 50% nitric is near half euro per liter. I am wondering where the price add up so exponentionally in the chain but this is for another discussion.

There we go haha. That makes sense. Holy WOW. Now at those prices you are swimming in money. NOW I GET THE WHOLE WORSHIPING NITRIC. lmfao. This actually explained a ton. Yeah over here it's like hundreds.....hundreds. No wonder everyone buys over gold price on Ebay. Their damn refining is 0$ xD
Well shit. Now that is "professionally discouraging"
Over here it's 50$ per 1.25 liters. Literally, or more. Best I had was what I bought awhile back at 350$ for 10 liters. lmao

 

[orvi]

I already said I would remove ferromagnetics. You don't read yet "Professionally discourage" people. I just need something to deal with Cu. Possibly Ag could get annoying as well.

Good tip?! HCL DOES NOTHING TO COPPER WHAT. He stated it makes HCL. Do you read people's posts?!

You will use oxidizer. In acidic enviroment, copper will be dissolved anyway. But chlorides enhance corrosion of majority of metals. Try it with dull copper penny. Soak it in vinegar, and nothing spectacular happen. Than add salt to it and soak it again you will see the difference.

We given our best opinions on dealing and dissolving the copper. Mineral acids, electrolysis, maybe classic etchants like CuCl2 or peroxodisulfates, FeCl3...
I will not give you better nor "greener" and safer alternative, because I don´t know any of the kind.

 

[CattMurry]

You will use oxidizer. In acidic enviroment, copper will be dissolved anyway. But chlorides enhance corrosion of majority of metals. Try it with dull copper penny. Soak it in vinegar, and nothing spectacular happen. Than add salt to it and soak it again you will see the difference.

We given our best opinions on dealing and dissolving the copper. Mineral acids, electrolysis, maybe classic etchants like CuCl2 or peroxodisulfates, FeCl3...
I will not give you better nor "greener" and safer alternative, because I don´t know any of the kind.

I mean.... At those prices, and competition points basically my hope has turned into vomiting in a corner lmao. You have no clue the hate I have for this place already. That increased it immeasurably, and I don't even like nitric. xD

I shall try that, but pennies aren't just pure copper... HCL also doesn't do anything to raw copper wire, but I'll try it.

At this point I'll sell my gold scrap to ebay. That is ridiculous. Other metals will go to the refiners/scrap yard, or make some bars for fun.

 

[butcher]

Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.

Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.

II is not better or safer and there are no real benefits.
Using it is just as useless as trying to prove it useful, or a safe alternative.
The time spent trying to argue a moot point could be better spent actually learning.

 

[Justincase]

Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.

From mild irritation to caustic burns, depending on the concentration of the gas at the time of exposure. It is a very severe irritant of the lungs,
mucous membranes, skin and eyes. The reaction of this gas with moisture produces
hydrofluoric acid. Thermal burns have been reported when fluorine gas comes in
contact with the skin due to the violent reaction between the skin and the gas.
Direct contact with liquid fluorine can cause frostbite. The lungs appear to be the
most affected tissue. Respiratory tract irritation may progress to pulmonary edema.
The Germans look at it as a flamethrower on steroids that could eat through reinforced bunkers and thought it too dangerous and extrema to use, which should give you some idea of its potency.

 

[Geo]

That is quite the frightening story, and glad he turned around. Most dangerous thing to do is going alone when there is a leak. What fumes are emitted to do that exactly? It appears explosive due to H, and O, but didn't see much else. Reminder* I didn't do heavy research on peroxyacetic just yet, but seems to have some potential at first glance.

They never said exactly what the cause was but knowing a little about it myself, I don't think it was the PAA itself. I'm assuming that it was something in the room that the drums and pump was in. There was also hydraulic pumps and prior hydraulic oil spills that had been cleaned but residues remained, the concrete floor, rubber hoses, wood framing. Lot's of organic material in the room and the PAA was under pressure and sprayed out onto everything. The gasses and vapors could have represented anything. He was given a key to the door because he is the one that changed the drums out besides being the one that sprayed the equipment down. The drums contained more concentrated liquid and the pumps were dosing pumps as the solution that was sprayed on the equipment was diluted. He was never instructed about the dangers and never informed what chemical it was. Poultry processing plants are notorious about putting employees at risk without informing them of the dangers. He did wear gloves and a respirator when changing the drums but was never told why.

 

[CattMurry]

They never said exactly what the cause was but knowing a little about it myself, I don't think it was the PAA itself. I'm assuming that it was something in the room that the drums and pump was in. There was also hydraulic pumps and prior hydraulic oil spills that had been cleaned but residues remained, the concrete floor, rubber hoses, wood framing. Lot's of organic material in the room and the PAA was under pressure and sprayed out onto everything. The gasses and vapors could have represented anything. He was given a key to the door because he is the one that changed the drums out besides being the one that sprayed the equipment down. The drums contained more concentrated liquid and the pumps were dosing pumps as the solution that was sprayed on the equipment was diluted. He was never instructed about the dangers and never informed what chemical it was. Poultry processing plants are notorious about putting employees at risk without informing them of the dangers. He did wear gloves and a respirator when changing the drums but was never told why.

Sounds like it, and crazy story what companies do. They'll always safeguard their recipes, or process over health it seems... They should always say at least what carts to get
(organic vapor carts), and why they need them. That's insanity.

 

[CattMurry]

Vinegar and H2O2 may attack metals, sure lots of things will do that, but it is pretty much useless in recovery and refining in general, Period.

Trying to prove something you do not understand is useless as counting on peracetic acid to be some kind of miracle breakthrough or to be a safer alternative.

II is not better or safer and there are no real benefits.
Using it is just as useless as trying to prove it useful, or a safe alternative.
The time spent trying to argue a moot point could be better spent actually learning.

That's why I was asking people you twit lmao. Only after I brought a entire book did Orvi (not even orvi) it was Yggdrasil who pointed out why it wouldn't work. So snobby! Good lord!
Never claimed to know anything either, and you don't apparently read.... I said this is what I am seeing lol.
You just piggyback on other's finding and discussions to be toxic whenever you can.