Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?

[CattMurry]

It is completely OK to work with acetic acid, but you need to be careful. I have done so much of my work with acetic acid, and it is sometimes irreplacable. But for organic chemistry. 100% stuff, we just dont want it wet.
You donated nitric to waste facility... You could offer it here, so many people will gladly buy from you

Most of the times, we don´t pre-mix acids with oxidizing agents. Like AR, you don´t pre-mix the HCl with HNO3, but instead add oxidizer (nitric) in doses to use a proper ammount of it to do its job.
Hypothetically, same apply here. If it was of any benefit using acetic acid or peracetic acid. I dont know of any benefit over nitric about this stuff. Both are dangerous when used improperly. NO2 is more toxic, that´s for sure. But in the refining, you will have hard time to eliminating nitric from the procedures.

Thanks for being kind, and helpful. The 100% stuff looks hazardous, and I give you a gold star* taking on a career that exposes you to such things.
For what you say for "doses" that is correct, and includes dripping techniques. This is what I did with the vinegar, and H2O2. Very careful dripping even with the vinegar at 5%. I have seen some be able to calculate how much acid they would need, and that sparked my curiosity because it is effieceny related. Plus less acid= potentially less headache, and hazard.
I would have kindly donated it here, but I just joined not too long ago. I wasn't aware of this site haha, but yeah. It was beautiful 70% lab grade stuff inside perfectly Teflon taped anti UV jugs.

I am curious. If acetic does come diluted in water, then what happens at 100% when it gets wet? Are you saying you want the purity to remain, or does it get real upset? haha

You have successfully worried me about peroxyacetic acid though.... What concentration is able to pierce through gloves? I see you said 90% is where real warning light go off, but what action does it have with what types of gloves, and at what concentrations?

I am not one to pass up safety protocol. It is what taught me a bit of chemistry firstly, and is even why I say I "like" chlorine. Reaction in the human alveoli's mucus (H2O) into HCL is produced making you WELL AWARE you are going to die soon, and the PPM of CL2 to the human nose is TINY. Again it gives you obvious warning something in your safety has failed, or you are pumping too much out into the surrounding area, and RUN. I digressed a bit, but this is my point; I never just give a "eh" to safety if you haven't noticed yet. haha

Side note- This is why CL2 is good at killing you. It steals, or displaces the O in your mucus, skin, or whatever it touches made of water, and makes some friendly HCL. You must gasp with the burning sensation, and displaced oxygen. It is why it was used as mustard gas.

 

[CattMurry]

Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.

Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
What will be the point of using say peracetic acid for dissolution of metals ? We could assume that it will work great, get everything dissolved, but... What is the output ? Does it outweigh the risks and safety hazards involved ? No. And you can end up your research right here.
Or you can pursue the ideas further, conducting and carefully documenting the procedures, doing proper analyses with instrumental and gravimetric methods. Professional research is different of our "clandestine" way of doing things. But aside of all of this, you know the most important answer right now: no, it wont help us with improving the procedures, because we already know the PAA is too hazardous to work with on regular basis, when we have more reliable and convenient alternatives.

I'm confused as we use fluorine to treat our drinking water. Now, Experimental research is different than the broad term research. Researching something is the study of it. Experimental research is the action of experimenting with things you do not understand to see the effects. DANGEROUS.

My issue is I still don't see the utility of nitric with its NOX. It cannot be filtered. The peroxyacetic (to my very little knowing) doesn't have that right there. Nitric still makes fires much worse, and can't be fought with water. If inhaled you are turbo screwed because the body is poor at synthesizing it. It (Peroxy) can dissolve all base metals easily and you can reclaim even your Cu easily, because it can penetrate Al's oxide layers.

I can't actually understand why HNO3 is used to be quite frank.

 

[Elemental]

Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile.

In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but want to make sure that novices to both chemistry and refining understand how dangerous they are. I find most of my posts stress safety and a full understanding of the risks.

 

[CattMurry]

Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.

Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
What will be the point of using say peracetic acid for dissolution of metals ? We could assume that it will work great, get everything dissolved, but... What is the output ? Does it outweigh the risks and safety hazards involved ? No. And you can end up your research right here.
Or you can pursue the ideas further, conducting and carefully documenting the procedures, doing proper analyses with instrumental and gravimetric methods. Professional research is different of our "clandestine" way of doing things. But aside of all of this, you know the most important answer right now: no, it wont help us with improving the procedures, because we already know the PAA is too hazardous to work with on regular basis, when we have more reliable and convenient alternatives.

Also. for safety for this stuff I left a bit out hehe. When it reacts with metal it foams. That concludes the flammability right there (potentially). It creates flammable bubbles... not sporadic gasses like you may imagine. this foam I would be interested in because it is kind of protecting me from fumes, or hazardous exploding potentials. I kind of want to scrape the foam off to see it is the flammable gas spoken about (in tiny quantities), then you could potentially light it on fire after your reactants decompose fully. If you have any more H2O2 present, or still in solution though I think you will be greeted by God. BUT my point is you can just handle the foam, or spray it with water to make it go away whenever you choose. NOX? Nope. It goes everywhere. CL2? Nope. Burns even little portions of your skin that are exposed. Not nice stuff, and don't even get me started on sulfuric. I hate sulfur. Lmao. I will add I have yet to go deep into reactions just yet, but I shall soon.

Side note: Any other reader reading this do not try it for yourself. You do not know how anxiety ridden I am about safety, or my working conditions to keep me safe, and at the ready for trouble. If you do anything you have read here you can easily end up dead. This goes for many reactions with chemistry.

 

[CattMurry]

Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile.

In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but

Yeah I do not suggest chemical storage in the house either. This is why after I read about nitric's full potential to kill you it was immediately removed. Nothing that is near itself can react so poorly, and I do have everything at the ready to neutralize what I have. SMB, and lots of baking soda for bleach/H2O2, and HCL. All I got, and even those intimidate me.

-Sodium metabisulfite (SMBS) and sodium bisulfite (SBS) are common reducing agents used to neutralize oxidizers such as peracetic acid (PAA) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Enviro Tech Chemical Services' peracetic acid products are equilibrium mixtures of both PAA and H2O2.

For fumes or anything that* can escape the bottles potentially I have my actual living quarters sealed up real good. Can't even smell cig smoke in here. For HVAC systems I have it off, so no airflow can potentially carry anything to us. Reactions are on a separate floor, and most these gasses spoken of are denser than air, but just in case.

Also note that I have previously stated I am doing no large scaled reactions in here. I am getting a schematic, or idea of what I'd like to do further down the road, but not a bad tip for other's reading. My reactions are literally a few MIL's

 

[CattMurry]

Cattmurry, you mentioned chemical storage in your house, I would recommend for safety reasons you move your chemical storage outside your domicile.

In regards to my comments about piranha solution, chlorine gas, and other hazardous techniques, I’m not against discussion of these techniques but want to make sure that novices to both chemistry and refining understand how dangerous they are. I find most of my posts stress safety and a full understanding of the risks.

Your recommendation reminds me of the user just posting about him having nitric in his house. Very sad to read. He isn't even aware it's too late, and damage has been done.

To all users. Show the Nitrogen, Sulfur, Chlorine, and all reactions some respect, or get put back into which you came from. Equilibrium of your dancing chemistry, and finally decomposition.

 

[CattMurry]

Acetic Acid is on the harsh end for what most people (who understand anything about it) feel comfortable using at concentrations above 5%. Add in an extreme volatility and you need to do some research (read and watch until you have nightmares). The thermoregulation required rivals Nitroglycerin production.

If you have the ability and confidence to use it safely, by all means. If you have to ask, you don’t.

Thermoregulation is a mechanism by which mammals maintain body temperature with tightly controlled self-regulation independent of external temperatures. Temperature regulation is a type of homeostasis and a means of preserving a stable internal temperature in order to survive.

Confused on what this word means. Are we talking temperature regulation in essence?

LOL. I didn't even read that word correctly. My bad! Was not meaning to sound like a smartss lmao. WHEW. Slightly tired. Did not notice it saying thermo-regulation.

 

[olawlor]

Confused on what this word means. Are we talking temperature regulation in essence?

Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!

FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)

 

[CattMurry]

Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!

FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)

A water jacket is a really good idea. Nice. Nitro seems spooky lmao. I know with Al it should react pretty well in acids, but the oxide layer is said by others to resist it pretty well...... but I'll be dammed. I have no idea why Fe flew past my face...... LOL

 

[CattMurry]

Exothermic reactions can thermal runaway and explode, requiring thermoregulation of the reactor vessel, such as with a water jacket. Prior to perfecting this, nitroglycerine plants would regularly vaporize themselves, a cautionary tale for anyone attempting novel chemistry!

FYI, even cold dilute HCl will immediately and energetically dissolve aluminum foil, alumina is pretty soluble at a pH around 0. (However, aluminum ions are freaking hard to get out of solution, they're least soluble around pH 7 but come out as a sticky gelatinous mess that takes an eternity to filter. I'd stick with iron for waste treatment, it's also less prone to bubbling off lots of hydrogen.)

The only issue I see is getting an accurate temperature in the first place. Right now I have a magnetic spinner/hot plate combo that comes with the little thermometer which actually was pretty helpful for steaming away water off vinegar at around 95C, but I have no clue how you would in an acidic/reactive solution as such. I don't trust infrared temp guns fully. I've heard many issues with accurate readings here, and there. Any solutions for reading heat? I am actually curious about it for metal smelting as well, but that would need a higher range. For the vessel I would probably just need a very accurate trustworthy one.

 

[CattMurry]

Yes, it shouldn´t be taken in certain directions. We gain a lot from experience of older researchers, who many times died because of the chemistry they were doing. Take for example the discovery of fluorine. Many people attempted it, and they had their health impaired for the rest of their lives. Don´t knowing the effects of fluorine to human body.

Now, we know a lot more, and because of this, we could be more cautious about stuff we plan to do.
Whole point here is you could do any kind of chemistry for research purposes, but the following question is: is it of any worth ?
What will be the point of using say peracetic acid for dissolution of metals ? We could assume that it will work great, get everything dissolved, but... What is the output ? Does it outweigh the risks and safety hazards involved ? No. And you can end up your research right here.
Or you can pursue the ideas further, conducting and carefully documenting the procedures, doing proper analyses with instrumental and gravimetric methods. Professional research is different of our "clandestine" way of doing things. But aside of all of this, you know the most important answer right now: no, it wont help us with improving the procedures, because we already know the PAA is too hazardous to work with on regular basis, when we have more reliable and convenient alternatives.

I'm looking at glove charts for acid, and it appears all materials of glove resists acetic, and peracetic. I personally use Latex gloves, then nitrile gloves inside the latex gloves. Will get some butyl gloves soon.

Also, I hear that peracetic is an equilibrium reaction.... How do these two co-exist simultaneously after reacting while also making a combined form of Peroxyacetic? Equilibrium looks odd to me...are they just working together, or actually mix, or just yes? lol.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Most, if not all chemical reactions are equlibrias. But the conditions in which it exists can be manipulated to a massive or some degree to push the reaction "left" or "right".
For instance temperature, acidity, pressure or other.
Cooling a solution may drop for instance lead chloride more completely from solution.

Edit to add:
Mixed and complex reactions make this immensely more complicated to foresee.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Catt!
Your fear of the fumes from Nitric and HCl puzzles me.
The dangers are real, but it has been developed techniques to alleviate these dangers.
Peracetic acid on the other hand is totally different.
I have no experience with it. And I see no need to use it just so that is said.

Breaking the oxide layer of Aluminum is quite easy. HCl, NaOH or straight Hydrogen peroxide will do that, with no additional risk other than the Hydrogen gas released.

Peracetic acid is also a weak acid like another acid we do NOT use much, HF. It breaks oxide bonds of refractory materials like glass and such, but that is about it.

To me, it seems like you are not choosing between, plague and cholera.
But rather opting for them in stead of the pneumonia.
Bad comparison I know, but nothing better popped up at this time.

Per-Ove

 

[Yggdrasil]

I had a mind slip with this one, I usually try to snap at people in PMs and then prize in public.
Sorry Catt.

 

[CattMurry]

Most, if not all chemical reactions are equlibrias. But the conditions in which it exists can be manipulated to a massive or some degree to push the reaction "left" or "right".
For instance temperature, acidity, pressure or other.
Cooling a solution may drop for instance lead chloride more completely from solution.

Edit to add:
Mixed and complex reactions make this immensely more complicated to foresee.

What are we meaning left to right? Thanks for the reply my friend. Yeah using heat seems very fascinating to drop certain things as well, but my potato head is a bit tired to read the whole paper, or books of info on equilibrium. I would assume left, and right meaning to one reactant say acid to the other. For the peroxyacetic you could push it into the H2O2, or the Acetic side?
I don't fully understand that last comment. I never mind snaps wherever they may be. You snapped? Huh. You aren't much of a reactor then. I come online so I don't get physically attacked, or conned by men lmao. On any speech, or typing basis don't apologize. I really do not mind.

 

[CattMurry]

Catt!
Your fear of the fumes from Nitric and HCl puzzles me.
The dangers are real, but it has been developed techniques to alleviate these dangers.
Peracetic acid on the other hand is totally different.
I have no experience with it. And I see no need to use it just so that is said.

Breaking the oxide layer of Aluminum is quite easy. HCl, NaOH or straight Hydrogen peroxide will do that, with no additional risk other than the Hydrogen gas released.

Peracetic acid is also a weak acid like another acid we do NOT use much, HF. It breaks oxide bonds of refractory materials like glass and such, but that is about it.

To me, it seems like you are not choosing between, plague and cholera.
But rather opting for them in stead of the pneumonia.
Bad comparison I know, but nothing better popped up at this time.

Per-Ove

Didn't know it eats glass. Glad I don't do crazy shannanigans before not doing the researching. I heard that stainless does well with it though. I've been a bit sleepy today, so I have not been doing much heavy researching atm.
My fear of nitric is that it's fumes cannot, or do not seem to be filtered by anything, and recommended PPM exposure in CDC guidelines is like..... 0. I've never seen that lmao. NOISH says 1PPM...... 1. With little filtration possibility it scares me heavily. CL2 is technically lower at 0.05ppm, but still... that's a 15 limit..... NO2 clearly states this limit should not be broken EVER. lol

 

[Yggdrasil]

Right or left side of the reaction.
Bad expression again, but pushing the reaction to either side to obtain what ever is your desired outcome on the reaction.
But some equlibrias are very dynamic so it is hard to get it fully finished.
So there will always be some left after its done.
That is why we have stock pots

 

[Yggdrasil]

Nox need scrubbers.
If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
Then into NaOH.

 

[CattMurry]

Nox need scrubbers.
If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
Then into NaOH.

Apologies for my thick head.... I'm still sliiightly lost on either side for different outcomes lmao. I should probably just do some reading, and your expressions help. I'm just a bit sleepy to read.

For NOX. That is true, and is a very helpful tip.... I do not have a full scrubbing eh.. unit? setup? not sure if that's the word I should use, but anyways that seems awesome you can brine back the nitric so easily. I forget reclaiming your acid is fairly simple, and plays into safety. What concentration of H2O2 do you need for that process? Now looking at them I have seen people reduce emissions through bubbling, or scrubbing but..... I mean..... 1ppm. no carts? Idk friend. It ain't called red death for nothin' hahaha. There are much worse things/elements/compounds but yeah. idk.

 

[CattMurry]

Nox need scrubbers.
If you scrub it through hydrogen peroxide you will basically create/recycle your nitric.
Then into NaOH.

Idk why, but I literally rather control a temperature of a reaction, and fight fire with water than that. Fire is not too scary unless you are real oblivious, or are asleep. Ever try burning wood? It's gotta get to temp to ignite really; meaning you got time, and if ready it hardly even gets hurt. Even better if outside/or around heat resistant plastics, or something. I'm sure I am missing a deadly reaction/gas with the peroxyacetic, or something obvious, but I'm sleepy to dig atm xD. when, and if I find scary emissions ill cave to the all holy nitric.... Or use ap lmao. Nitric is awesome though. Eats the most annoying Cu easily, and Ag when hot.