Why is peracetic acid not mentioned much by Youtubers, or others?

[Jado]

The only issue I see is getting an accurate temperature in the first place. Right now I have a magnetic spinner/hot plate combo that comes with the little thermometer which actually was pretty helpful for steaming away water off vinegar at around 95C, but I have no clue how you would in an acidic/reactive solution as such. I don't trust infrared temp guns fully. I've heard many issues with accurate readings here, and there. Any solutions for reading heat? I am actually curious about it for metal smelting as well, but that would need a higher range. For the vessel I would probably just need a very accurate trustworthy one.

There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).

We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.

Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.

 

[CattMurry]

There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).

We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.

Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.

No worries I'm pretty tired myself lmao. I feel it. Love how you describe water. I the other day had a good reality trip when knowing HCL is.... just gases...... inside water? which is...... condensed gasses at optimal temp. Very odd realization, but I digress. Got even better when H2O looks like it should be highly explosive. Lucky for us maxing oxidation is our friend.

For the Peroxyacetic acid: It (all saying google, and other's) say flash point is exactly 104.9F (40.5c). So, I'm wondering why not always have the reaction chilled? Of course this would mess with the whole equilibrium shenanigans (I assume), because you'd have warm center around chilled outside. warm center could get crazy with large batches too. You'd definitely need to go slow, and understand what the different temps do to the reactions as well.

If you haven't noticed I am quite intimidated by HNO3, and it's red death fumes hahaha.

 

[CattMurry]

There’s another point to consider, and that is the working temperature. HNO3 boils at a much higher temp than water (oh sweet water, highest enthalpy liquid in the universe) and as such is reasonably stable in dilute solution. Peracetic wholly degrades as it boils, and can boil before water at 1.05kPa (could be .005, someone correct me, it’s been a long day).

We can feel reasonably assured with HCl and HNO3 that, with proper precautions, the reaction will NOT drive itself. We can turn the heat off and the reaction will slow.

Creating an exothermic reaction with PAA will require cooling to control, and it’s not as easy to add cooling as it is to remove added heat.

Oh.... you are talking pressures. My apologies. How does it remain at all, or not instantly explode if normal conditions if the atmosphere are at 101.325 kPa?
ISA - International Standard Atmosphere is defined to 101.325 kPa, 15oC and 0% humidity.

Wouldn't it just explode? I am assuming that means as it is made it is degrading, and gaining heat automatically then? Sorry again. Hadn't seen that you were talking pressures haha. That's low...

 

[Jado]

No worries I'm pretty tired myself lmao. I feel it. Love how you describe water. I the other day had a good reality trip when knowing HCL is.... just gases...... inside water? which is...... condensed gasses at optimal temp. Very odd realization, but I digress. Got even better when H2O looks like it should be highly explosive. Lucky for us maxing oxidation is our friend.

For the Peroxyacetic acid: It (all saying google, and other's) say flash point is exactly 104.9F (40.5c). So, I'm wondering why not always have the reaction chilled? Of course this would mess with the whole equilibrium shenanigans (I assume), because you'd have warm center around chilled outside. warm center could get crazy with large batches too. You'd definitely need to go slow, and understand what the different temps do to the reactions as well.

If you haven't noticed I am quite intimidated by HNO3, and it's red death fumes hahaha.

Oh.... you are talking pressures. My apologies. How does it remain at all, or not instantly explode if normal conditions for the atmosphere are 101.325 kPa?
ISA - International Standard Atmosphere is defined to 101.325 kPa, 15oC and 0% humidity.

Wouldn't it just explode? I am assuming that means as it is made it is degrading, and gaining heat automatically then? Sorry again. Hadn't seen that you were talking pressures haha. That's low...

There’s a term “Bumping” used in chemistry for the pressure waves caused in reaction. Normally we try to avoid bumping as it tends to send hot acid flying at our faces and can also ruin glassware and everything around it (like our faces). With a flash point lower than the boiling point of water (at atm), it only takes 1 mol to reach temp and cause a bump which in turn causes a pressure wave (high pressure sent outward, leaves low pressure inward) and now you have a mass of instantly boiling PAA. Temperature and pressure are married, tied at the hip, liplocked and wearing the same Tshirt.

And yes, the dangers of PAA (aside from lack of caution) would scale with batch size. Unknowns are also a factor though, and this forum is full of stories all about unknowns.

I deal with HF occasionally. I have training, equipment, and support and it still freaks me out a bit. Give me Cl2 and NO2 any day of the week. Better “the devil you know…”

 

[Yggdrasil]

You used the analogy of burning wood earlier. That is more or less the same. The temperature rises and the wood decompose into fractions that are ignitable.
If the decomposition speed gets high enough for an exotermic process it may/will go out of control and you have an combustion or explosion on your hands.

Same with any compound. When the conditions are "favorable for that" they will decompose. Hydrogen peroxide will decompose slowly by itself.


Edit to add:
Jado beat me to it and quite eloquent at that.

 

[butcher]

When water flashes to steam it expands 1700 times.
What a chemist called bumping a boiler man calls a water hammer, it can break piping.
In the lab, bumping can make the boiling flask bounce around on the chemist's hotplate.

Wood sawdust or other types of fine dust, cotton lint, carbon, corn ... can decompose in a pretty violent chemical reaction. the wood or dust in a chemical reaction with oxygen, producing water, carbon monoxide (CO) (incomplete combustion) and with more oxygen forms carbon dioxide and water with (complete combustion) and of course ash.

 

[Yggdrasil]

A question to the community in general and the chemists among us.

What can peracetic acid do?
Are there any chemical upside to use it at all?

It is considered a weak acid, that is about the only thing I know about it.

But can it do anything our preferred acids can't?

Per-Ove

 

[Jado]

A question to the community in general and the chemists among us.

What can peracetic acid do?
Are there any chemical upside to use it at all?

It is considered a weak acid, that is about the only thing I know about it.

But can it do anything our preferred acids can't?

Per-Ove

First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf

 

[CattMurry]

There’s a term “Bumping” used in chemistry for the pressure waves caused in reaction. Normally we try to avoid bumping as it tends to send hot acid flying at our faces and can also ruin glassware and everything around it (like our faces). With a flash point lower than the boiling point of water (at atm), it only takes 1 mol to reach temp and cause a bump which in turn causes a pressure wave (high pressure sent outward, leaves low pressure inward) and now you have a mass of instantly boiling PAA. Temperature and pressure are married, tied at the hip, liplocked and wearing the same Tshirt.

And yes, the dangers of PAA (aside from lack of caution) would scale with batch size. Unknowns are also a factor though, and this forum is full of stories all about unknowns.

I deal with HF occasionally. I have training, equipment, and support and it still freaks me out a bit. Give me Cl2 and NO2 any day of the week. Better “the devil you know…”

Lmfao. Bro. Your humor is immeasurably fantastic. I can't even. xD

 

[Yggdrasil]

First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf

I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.

Per-Ove

 

[CattMurry]

First incident report that came up https://envirotech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mishandled-PAA.pdf

I actually has read this too! THE BABOON put it in a normal steel instead of Stainless or something ridiculous LMAO! The owner had said "luckily it was the weekend, so no one got hurt".... Like ohmy.

 

[CattMurry]

I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.

Per-Ove

Looks like it can eat everything up to Ag a bit, but I'll let other's answer from here as to I keep, and remain saying I have not dug too deep yet. I am fascinated with learning complexes atm.

We gotta be able to see the exothermic predictions/equations with certain materials I'd imagine.

 

[Jado]

I think you misunderstood me, my bad. I'll rephrase.
What can it dissolve, what can it not dissolve, can it do things our preferred and tested processes can't.

Per-Ove

Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…

PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.

It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…

PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.

It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.

Not necessarily positive.
But I get your drift.

So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost more and when safety come into consideration....

Per-Ove

 

[CattMurry]

Oh you meant positive arguments. Ok, I’ll try to reword it positively…

PAA is capable of self catalyzing, which allows it to drive it’s own reactions without needing to add heat or agitation.

It should also be able to dissolve most pot epoxies and lacquers.

Nice. lol.

 

[CattMurry]

Not necessarily positive.
But I get your drift.

So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost more and when safety come into consideration....

Per-Ove

Okay. I will be hypocritical, and say one last thing I hope before I annoy; for me I want Peroxyacetic to eat Cu over nitric. That's literally it. HCL on hot can do a lot to many things except lead apparently? It (peroxy) may take out Ag as well, and that is fine too.

Then you roll on over to chlorate salts/HCL, or AP method and hallehullya. Back to your norm.

Might get away with diluted H2O2 to chop lead down too.

*RAW H2O2*

This is possibly interestingly scary depending on what it exactly reacts with with other materials present. Looks like chains of Hydroxyl groups, and not fun to touch.

->Iron and hydrogen peroxide are capable of oxidizing a wide range of substrates and causing biological damage. The reaction, referred to as the Fenton reaction, is complex and capable of generating both hydroxyl radicals and higher oxidation states of the iron.

->Iron and hydrogen peroxide are capable of oxidizing a wide range of substrates and causing biological damage. The reaction, referred to as the Fenton reaction, is complex and capable of generating both hydroxyl radicals and higher oxidation states of the iron. The mechanism and how it is affected by different chelators, and the interpretation of results obtained in biological systems, are discussed.

->The hydroxyl radical (•OH) is the major intermediate reactive responsible for organic substrate oxidation. The free radical HO2• and its conjugate O2•− are also involved in degradation processes but are much less reactive than free hydroxyl radicals.

Why, and how people show off it's yikes effect on organics.

*Peracetic*
Peracetic, or peroxyacetic acid, is characterized by a very rapid action against all microorganisms.
****Special advantages of peracetic acid include its lack of harmful decomposition products (i.e., acetic acid, water, oxygen, hydrogen peroxide)

Peracetic acid is very aggressive to soft metals such as iron, copper, zinc and brass. All these metals corrode quickly and release transition metal ions into solution. Transition metals catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide(H2O2) that the product also contains. Oxygen gas is produced.
-Basically control the H2O2 by dripping. Thus controlling stabilization, and chain reaction runaway.

*Acetic*
-Acetic acid is mildly corrosive to metals including iron, magnesium, and zinc, forming hydrogen gas and salts called acetates: Mg + 2 CH3COOH → (CH3COO)2Mg + H. Because aluminium forms a passivating acid-resistant film of aluminium oxide, aluminium tanks are used to transport acetic acid.

-2 oxidizers of Fe-> faster reaction->faster decomp, and possible heating effect.
Oxides cannot resist.

-Vinegar, 5% acetic acid, will dissolve iron oxides, both rust Fe2O3, and magnetite Fe3O4. Rust, is red and flakey and offers NO protection to the metal.

Just learned I boiled away some acid in my refining of the vinegar. Had brass above the boil on purpose... where mainly H2O2 comes in.
Generally, pure copper does not react with acetic acid; however, a reactive oxide layer is formed upon exposure to air. This layer interacts with non-oxidizing acids to give green copper(II) compounds (DeMeo, 1997; Tétreault et al., 2003), namely copper(II) acetate.

*Lead acetate toxicity*:
4.6.

Lead acetate is a white crystalline compound of lead with a sweetish taste. Known as “sugar of lead”, it is water-soluble and one of the most bioavailable forms of lead. Similar to other lead compounds, it is very poisonous and soluble in water.

Feel hungry? Zinc and acetic-> Na Acetate
Is sodium acetate edible?
Sodium acetate (anhydrous) is widely used as a shelf-life extending agent, pH control agent It is safe to eat at low concentration. (just saw this random answer. doesn't look right, but idk)

--zinc acetate: near edible, and used in capsules for zinc deficiency. reference:
https://www.google.com/search?q=zinc+acetate&rlz=1C1VDKB_enUS980US980&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
*Nickel*
Does acetic acid react with nickel?
-Ni shown active-passive transition in acetic acid solutions of concentration 0.5 – 5 and 13 M. ... The corrosion of Ni in acid acetic solutions is controlled by the diffusion of the dissolved oxygen at the interface metal/solution. The evolution hydrogen reaction has an insignificant roll in the Ni corrosion.

-Is nickel acetate toxic?:
NICKEL ACETATE is a green, crystalline material, mildly toxic and carcinogenic. Combustible when exposed to heat or flame. When heated to decomposition it emits acrid smoke and irritating fumes.

-Thermogravimetry, differential thermal analysis, X-ray diffractometry and infrared spectroscopy showed that Ni(CH3COO)2·4H2O decomposes completely at 500°C, giving rise to a mixture of Nio and NiO. The results revealed that the compound undergoes dehydration at 160°C and melts at 310°C.

Stainless might not be appropriate. Chart of reactivity:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-corrosion-resistance-d_491.html
Reference 2 for reactivity chart: https://marketing.industrialspec.co...ess-steel-chemical-compatibility-from-ism.pdf
302, and 304 Stainless looks good.

****Conclusion.... Yes please for the most part. Only unsure of Fe ligands and their confusing big brother Chelates.
THEN WE HAVE MAGNETS. Isn't life so nice?

Edited for breaking the forum rules.

 

[CattMurry]

Not necessarily positive.
But I get your drift.

So far I think it may be suitable for chips in stead of pyrolizing.
Maybe PCBs but then why use it, it probably cost more and when safety come into consideration....

Per-Ove

There's your new refining bible in essence (potentially). Nitric is time saving, but acetic is organic, and is edible (depending). Again, on the depending: I do not know at what concentrations these reactions take place, so testing, and research required, but there's a whole book in what? An hour or so? Nearly all directions pointed out.

I'd do this:
1). Remove ferromagnetics- Magnet tests.
2). HCL baths hot if preferred.
3). Acetic bathes for reactive metals. Excluding copper potentially. (testing required).
4). Acetic, or just raw H2O2 (always nice to have a body for H2O2 rather than raw)- destroys Cu, Ag, and remnants of contaminant traces.
***IF YOU LOVE HNO3 DO A WASH********
5). (Chlorate salts+HCL+Au), OR (AP route), OR (AR)=
gold ligands (aq) solution+potentially Pd groups. Unsure of Pd's really.
6). SMB drop/SO2 treatments (bubble) when PH is appropriate?... (I'm actually unsure of these rules/balancing on this haha)

 

[orvi]

Peracetic acid is very aggressive to soft metals such as iron, copper, zinc and brass. All these metals corrode quickly and release transition metal ions into solution. Transition metals catalyze the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide(H2O2) that the product also contains. Oxygen gas is produced.
-Basically control the H2O2 by dripping. Thus controlling stabilization, and chain reaction runaway.

This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond = oxidizer is spent without effect. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot.
3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.

Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers

And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile developing cracks, losing flexibility...
4. as it would be unefficient, it will be EXPENSIVE to use PAA as substitute for cheap and stable acids like nitric or hydrochloric.
5. as an organic acid and very good solvent, it will likely dissolve all kinds of resins, glues, certain plastics and paints. If you apply this to material with these things, they will dissolve into the solution. I dont want to imagine rinsing these residues out of any product I will obtain with this method. Slightest contact with water will cause back-precipitation of these resin/paint/glue residues as sticky water-repelling mess try to dissolve some polystyrene in acetone and then dump it into the water
It means that every product you will get from impure starting materials will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water. Additional cost and waste created.
6. if you are not fan of vinegar smell overall, than good luck with higher concentrations PAA is even worse, penetrating smell get all over the place... from organic stuff still one of the "milder" chemicals tho.
I dont say you cannot get used to it (as I am from years of working with all kinds of funky chemicals).

If nitrogen oxides are issue for you, then you could process material with HCl/oxygen. Or use nitric with addition of hydrogen peroxide. Nitrogen oxides will be oxidized back to nitric acid, regenerating your stuff and producing only minute ammounts of brown gas
For copper, diluted sulfuric acid with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards. Very similar outcome, but i dont think this would be cost efficient.
And if all stated chemicals here get you nervous, then you can smelt your material down and electrorefine it.

 

[CattMurry]

This should give you a very good answer. If you want to use peracetic acid instead of nitric/HCl, for the purpose of what you want to do with them, it will not work better.
1. it will be slow from beginning - acetic and peracetic acids are WEAK acids, dissolution will be slow compared to mineral acids like HCl, sulfuric or nitric acids.
2. these reactions are unefficient hence the catalytic decomposition of the peroxide bond in either PAA and hydrogen peroxide - peroxidic bond = oxidizer is spent without effect. This worsen with temperature and metal content in the pot.
3. peracetic and acetic acid as organic acids will f**k up many types of plastics (PE and PP are mostly resistant, but some types will swell over time) and will likely go through the ANY easily obtainable commercial gloves.

Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers

And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile developing cracks, losing flexibility...
4. as it would be unefficient, it will be EXPENSIVE to use PAA as substitute for cheap and stable acids like nitric or hydrochloric.
5. as an organic acid and very good solvent, it will likely dissolve all kinds of resins, glues, certain plastics and paints. If you apply this to material with these things, they will dissolve into the solution. I dont want to imagine rinsing these residues out of any product I will obtain with this method. Slightest contact with water will cause back-precipitation of these resin/paint/glue residues as sticky water-repelling mess try to dissolve some polystyrene in acetone and then dump it into the water
It means that every product you will get from impure starting materials will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water. Additional cost and waste created.
6. if you are not fan of vinegar smell overall, than good luck with higher concentrations PAA is even worse, penetrating smell get all over the place... from organic stuff still one of the "milder" chemicals tho.
I dont say you cannot get used to it (as I am from years of working with all kinds of funky chemicals).

If nitrogen oxides are issue for you, then you could process material with HCl/oxygen. Or use nitric with addition of hydrogen peroxide. Nitrogen oxides will be oxidized back to nitric acid, regenerating your stuff and producing only minute ammounts of brown gas
For copper, diluted sulfuric acid with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards. Very similar outcome, but i dont think this would be cost efficient.
And if all stated chemicals here get you nervous, then you can smelt your material down and electrorefine it.

For weak acids sure... Make it slightly stronger.... Read that a company makes 15% and something like 30%H2O2 mix with 1% sulfuric, or something, and it works just fine at being in plastic....like others mention you don't combine them for storage....... what?

Why do you have plastics, and glue?! HCL can eat them anyways, so that would be my first choice. Even H2O2/vinegar at 3%, and 5% is used to pop off gold foils. Takes awhile sure. What are you refining?!

"It means that every product you will get from impure starting materials will need to be washed with ORGANIC SOLVENT before water."

-I am not sure what this means as to Acetic comes diluted in water... You wouldn't make like 90-99% Acetic. Also, dumping, or decanting is with every process. ?????????

"For copper, diluted sulfuric acid with adition of hydrogen peroxide will also do the job. No fumes will come out except some oxygen. Practically speaking, you could buy peroxodisulfate for etching PCB boards"

-That seems like a scarier reaction! Wouldn't refine entire boards regardless. Their scrap value clean is high for greens/and even for browns for having near nothing lol.

You are flip flopping being profitable!

 

[CattMurry]

Many manufacturers will proudly say that their products stay intact and acid will not go through. It is very easy to test, hence acetic acid could be "analysed" with your nose in ppm concentrations just put on the gloves, drop some acid on them, wait few minutes, get it off your hand and then smell your fingers

And the peroxide part in the PAA will get fun time epoxidizing every unsaturated bond in the rubber/nitrile developing cracks, losing flexibility...

Whoever may read this. Never test gloves like this. If anything have patience if you don't believe charts, and submerge them a bit into whatever acid. Never expose yourself.... LIKE WHAT?

Sir I wear Latex over Nitrile, and will get Butyl to go over the Latex..... You even just said you would see failure of the gloves firstly.

This is Earth right? Where am I?