Worth it?

[localearner]

I've been asking around for nearly a month now, trying to find a company that would be willing to sell me electronic scrap, particularly old ceramic CPU scrap.

It's been nearly impossible to find a legitimate company amongst all the scammers out there, but I recently found a German scrap company with a legitimate VAT ID that agreed upon selling me the ceramic CPU scrap I've been looking for.

They are offering to sell a 2 kg lot containing a mix of Intel i386 and Intel i486 CPUs for 500 €/kg (520 $).
I found sources claiming that a mix of them yield 8.67g=790$/kg (OwlTech), whilst other sources claim that they yield 4.42-5.1g=$405-$470/kg.

If the yield is on the lower end, I might lose some money once I also pay the shipping cost.

Can anybody with any knowledge of ceramic processors help me on deciding whether it is worth it or not?
I have everything ready to process them.

 

[anachronism]

I don't like to put things down, it's not constructive but I don't think you'll win out of this when you take everything into account. If it's a test of your skills and a learning exercise that's reasonable, but otherwise not.

 

[localearner]

I don't like to put things down, it's not constructive but I don't think you'll win out of this when you take everything into account. If it's a test of your skills and a learning exercise that's reasonable, but otherwise not.

I already have everything to refine, the glassware, the chemicals and equipment. Refining gold has recently become a hobby of mine that I do occasionally, and I find that old electronic scraps are very easy to recover gold out of. I was curious to know if I would lose any money doing this, since in the long run it will benefit me if I recover more in gold and accumulate a greater amount of it.

 

[anachronism]

I already have everything to refine, the glassware, the chemicals and equipment. Refining gold has recently become a hobby of mine that I do occasionally, and I find that old electronic scraps are very easy to recover gold out of. I was curious to know if I would lose any money doing this, since in the long run it will benefit me if I recover more in gold and accumulate a greater amount of it.

Yes I do understand your thinking. The problem with deals like this is that you're relying upon a particular yield in order to benefit. I try to steer clear of those as much as possible. Have you looked into toll work? You can achieve 20% ish clear by being an honest toll refiner.

 

[localearner]

You're absolutely right with the dependence upon a particular 'unconfirmed' yield, really is not the best thing to rely upon. I haven't looked into toll work, it had never crossed my mind before. I'll see if it is something I can do. Thank you very much for the idea.

 

[Shark]

Finding quality material in a constant and steady supply is the usual problem for most small refiners. But with steady and consistent searching sometimes you get lucky. I did for several years and know it can be done, it just isn't always easy.

 

[Argentum Auricle]

Yes I do understand your thinking. The problem with deals like this is that you're relying upon a particular yield in order to benefit. I try to steer clear of those as much as possible. Have you looked into toll work? You can achieve 20% ish clear by being an honest toll refiner.

How does one become a toll refiner?

 

[Yggdrasil]

How does one become a toll refiner?

Either you offer to refine for someone or they ask you to refine for them.

Conditions may vary upon many factors.
The problem is that one need to agree on what you receive and the conditions for the refine.

Unless you have a very strict deal on how much Gold there is in what you receive and the time frame there can easily become a dispute.
We have seen it unfold in the forum at times

 

[anarxi]

I've been asking around for nearly a month now, trying to find a company that would be willing to sell me electronic scrap, particularly old ceramic CPU scrap.

It's been nearly impossible to find a legitimate company amongst all the scammers out there, but I recently found a German scrap company with a legitimate VAT ID that agreed upon selling me the ceramic CPU scrap I've been looking for.

They are offering to sell a 2 kg lot containing a mix of Intel i386 and Intel i486 CPUs for 500 €/kg (520 $).
I found sources claiming that a mix of them yield 8.67g=790$/kg (OwlTech), whilst other sources claim that they yield 4.42-5.1g=$405-$470/kg.

If the yield is on the lower end, I might lose some money once I also pay the shipping cost.

Can anybody with any knowledge of ceramic processors help me on deciding whether it is worth it or not?
I have everything ready to process them.

I don't know the profitability of these processors.
but simple human logic says that the company is engaged in recycling waste, knows the real content and will sell these processors at the price of gold and palladium (which they also possibly contain).
+ small margin.
there are no miracles.

 

[localearner]

I don't know the profitability of these processors.
but simple human logic says that the company is engaged in recycling waste, knows the real content and will sell these processors at the price of gold and palladium (which they also possibly contain).
+ small margin.
there are no miracles.

Before contacting the German company, believing that companies that deal with recycling waste would have these old ceramic CPUs, I contacted them first but they wanted higher prices from me ($650-$750/kg) for the same CPUs.

I personally believe that I won't lose much if I proceed with this order, maybe even earn something, but first I'll have to do a sample test with a couple of the CPUs to see if they yield a good amount of gold.. if I do proceed with the order.

Worst case scenario I could sell the rest of the CPUs on eBay or Boardsort, as Boardsort is paying 490$/kg for the same CPUs.

 

[Dreamer]

The truth to the matter is that people with this material know the gold content/value and will only sell it for more than it's worth or for it's yield value. Otherwise they will refine it themselves or use a toll refiner.

The trick to making money as a toll refiner is to recover all the base metals you process and use less or cheaper chemicals than the next guy.

 

[nickvc]

The truth to the matter is that people with this material know the gold content/value and will only sell it for more than it's worth or for it's yield value. Otherwise they will refine it themselves or use a toll refiner.

The trick to making money as a toll refiner is to recover all the base metals you process and use less or cheaper chemicals than the next guy.

There is no trick to becoming a toll refiner , you have to offer decent returns and be honest in all your dealings , forget base metals as a profit stream unless you are processing large amounts of the same material and do not need to recover them from solutions.

 

[Dreamer]

There is no trick to becoming a toll refiner , you have to offer decent returns and be honest in all your dealings , forget base metals as a profit stream unless you are processing large amounts of the same material and do not need to recover them from solutions.

No intention of creating an argument or debate. It's thrown around by on-line publications that gold refining margins have fallen by 80% over the last 20 years due to overcapacity. World Gold Council report cites limited supplies, greater demand and increasing government regulation are some of the leading challenges.

These simple facts led to my comment about doing things cheaper than the next guy and picking up the values that others throw away as "the trick" to making money as a toll refiner.

Take it for what it's worth. If using the word "trick" melts a few snowflakes - okay ban me.

 

[nickvc]

I nor I doubt anyone else will want to ban you for having a different opinion or overview of the refining world, I agree if you can save on processing costs it adds to your bottom line but trying to recover base metals and been able to sell them at a decent price is not easy , if you are running a copper cell you might be in with a chance but if you are running different product or mixed e scrap the base metals can be a mix of lots of different elements and some of those elements carry harsh surcharges from the refiners.
E scrap refining margins are normally higher reflecting the work needed to recover the values but if you are selling bars in quantity the margins were already very slim for the refiner , they work on volume to produce profits and the recovery of any values not paid on.

 

[haveagojoe]

Something which is often overlooked when assessing profitability is the speculative aspect. When taking gold into our possession -including scrap and ewaste- in return for money, we are effectively taking a long position in gold. The profit margin is only realized at the point of sale. Therefore whether a transaction is "worth it" depends largely on how long you intend to hold the gold, the market value at the time of selling it, and therefore your opinions about the future of the gold market.
For example, I purchased 100 laptops over 10 years ago for £100, but I considered it to be not "worth it" to process them due to the massive amount of work involved in stripping them, so I kept them in storage. As the gold price has risen significantly since then - and the value of my time has fallen, due to inability to continue my previously well-paid career for health reasons - I recently decided it is now "worth it" to dismantle them and go after the gold, on the basis that in my estimation the gold price will continue to rise, and that in the future it is unlikely to fall below a point where I would feel I had lost out at the point of sale if I decide to sell.
Similarly, gold which I did process over 10 years ago, was barely "worth it" at the time, but since I have held onto it while the price has risen, it now certainly represents worthwhile effort.

Edit to add- of course, the best gold is always free; in my opinion buying ewaste of any type is rarely "worth it" if you intend to sell the gold immediately, but can represent a decent investment if you are prepared to store it until the gold value appreciates sufficiently, relative to the cost of processing. In that case, obviously small high grade material such as processors are better than items such as laptops, unless the cost of storage is negligible, as it was for me. Otherwise, processing the gold immediately and then storing the resulting product as an investment would make more sense. That is, assuming that the gold market continues to rise, which is an entirely speculative assumption.

 

[haveagojoe]

There is no trick to becoming a toll refiner , you have to offer decent returns and be honest in all your dealings , forget base metals as a profit stream unless you are processing large amounts of the same material and do not need to recover them from solutions.

One "trick" which is perhaps relevant is the the recovery not of base metals, but of silver. I seem to remember Sreetips mentioning this as a significant supplemental income stream from his refining of karat scrap.

 

[nickvc]

One "trick" which is perhaps relevant is the the recovery not of base metals, but of silver. I seem to remember Sreetips mentioning this as a significant supplemental income stream from his refining of karat scrap.

I mentioned in my last post that if you are refining volumes of material and do not pay on all metals then the PGMs and silver can add up fairly quickly, we as amateurs use a stockpot for the same reason to accumulate values to recover when the volume makes it viable.
Large suppliers to major refiners usually get really good terms on the main metals they supply but the smaller ones do not and they really make a difference to the bottom line.

 

[anarxi]

Something which is often overlooked when assessing profitability is the speculative aspect. When taking gold into our possession -including scrap and ewaste- in return for money, we are effectively taking a long position in gold. The profit margin is only realized at the point of sale. Therefore whether a transaction is "worth it" depends largely on how long you intend to hold the gold, the market value at the time of selling it, and therefore your opinions about the future of the gold market.
For example, I purchased 100 laptops over 10 years ago for £100, but I considered it to be not "worth it" to process them due to the massive amount of work involved in stripping them, so I kept them in storage. As the gold price has risen significantly since then - and the value of my time has fallen, due to inability to continue my previously well-paid career for health reasons - I recently decided it is now "worth it" to dismantle them and go after the gold, on the basis that in my estimation the gold price will continue to rise, and that in the future it is unlikely to fall below a point where I would feel I had lost out at the point of sale if I decide to sell.
Similarly, gold which I did process over 10 years ago, was barely "worth it" at the time, but since I have held onto it while the price has risen, it now certainly represents worthwhile effort.

Edit to add- of course, the best gold is always free; in my opinion buying ewaste of any type is rarely "worth it" if you intend to sell the gold immediately, but can represent a decent investment if you are prepared to store it until the gold value appreciates sufficiently, relative to the cost of processing. In that case, obviously small high grade material such as processors are better than items such as laptops, unless the cost of storage is negligible, as it was for me. Otherwise, processing the gold immediately and then storing the resulting product as an investment would make more sense. That is, assuming that the gold market continues to rise, which is an entirely speculative assumption.

You are confusing warm with soft.
paid
refiner is a person who does not buy or sell anything, he just works.
the client gives him the material, and he cleans it and returns it to the client.
the fee for the work is agreed upon in advance.
for example, a person gives me silver-plated metal, these are connectors, dishes, high-frequency communication parts and the like.
I remove the silver layer from it, melt it down and give it to him along with the purified metal.
the price for such work is half of the mass of silver that I refined.
my expenses:
chemicals, equipment, electricity, water, waste treatment.
my time.
everything is based on trust.
I took the material, brought the ingots, weighed them, and checked their purity with an X-ray gun.
only then does money appear.
I get paid according to the current price.

 

[orvi]

Before contacting the German company, believing that companies that deal with recycling waste would have these old ceramic CPUs, I contacted them first but they wanted higher prices from me ($650-$750/kg) for the same CPUs.

I personally believe that I won't lose much if I proceed with this order, maybe even earn something, but first I'll have to do a sample test with a couple of the CPUs to see if they yield a good amount of gold.. if I do proceed with the order.

Worst case scenario I could sell the rest of the CPUs on eBay or Boardsort, as Boardsort is paying 490$/kg for the same CPUs.

Where I live, possible profit on this lot is like 3-4 days of salary in good regular day to day job. If you sold gold at 100% spot (not possible), did not account chems, energy, water and waste treatment.

Deduct all of this from the possible profit, and you will be surprised how much work will accumulate and many small expenses that pile up. Waste treatment also takes time. Dealing with seller also takes time, preparation of the material also takes time... It cut down like 1 day worth of pay if I will account for my prices here.

Still, good deal in my eyes, if you are able to secure that the CPUs will be indeed 386 and 486 only and not miss any gold lids and legs. We usually got around 7-7.5 g from 386/486 mix in our hands. Not only intel stuff, but mix, also mix with co-procs like 387´s...

You will find difficult to build any business this way. You need to do reliable job and get the right people to know you and be happy with dealing with you or with your service (if you will toll refine). Befriend e-scrap collectors and scrapyards owners + jewellers/reliable and legit pawnshop owners. Toll refining is more defensive way to do things, as you are not directly exposed to market price fluctuations. However, you can many times rake much higher profit if buying things directly - but you are then exposed to more risk, as e-scrap is inconsistent and value-fluctuating feed.