Bizness4you
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Very cool make some gold. 8) :evil: :evil:
Yet another noob who needs help - Subzero Method
- Thread starter megaplow
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megaplow
your first batch is not a total loss unless you dumped your solutions down the drain &/or threw out your mud. Your values are still in one or both places (ether in solution &/or in the mud) & they can still be recovered.
So "first" get some copper pipe from the hardware store - cut it into pieces that are a little longer then the container you have your solution in - then cut it in half length wise & put it in the solution & leave it there for 2 or 3 days. If there are any values in the solution they will do what is called cement out of solution.
Concerning your mud - set it aside for now - covered with water because if there was silver nitrate in it you now have silver chloride after adding muratic acid & you don't want the silver cloride to dry out.
NOW - read C. M. Hokes book on refining - its a free download from right here on the forum. Hokes is a MUST READ if you want to be successfull at recovering & refining presious metals. Read it & re-read it until you understand it - do that along with spending a couple weeks read stuff here on the forum.
THEN - start with some new small batch experments to learn the process of what you learned from reading & at this point you will be able to start asking question with things you are having trouble with &/or things you don't understand.
After you have read/studied Hokes & the forum & after you have got the process down from doing small batch experments - then you can go back to the mud from this first batch & recover the values from it - because then - & only then will you understand what you did wrong & how to fix it.
Kurt
your first batch is not a total loss unless you dumped your solutions down the drain &/or threw out your mud. Your values are still in one or both places (ether in solution &/or in the mud) & they can still be recovered.
So "first" get some copper pipe from the hardware store - cut it into pieces that are a little longer then the container you have your solution in - then cut it in half length wise & put it in the solution & leave it there for 2 or 3 days. If there are any values in the solution they will do what is called cement out of solution.
Concerning your mud - set it aside for now - covered with water because if there was silver nitrate in it you now have silver chloride after adding muratic acid & you don't want the silver cloride to dry out.
NOW - read C. M. Hokes book on refining - its a free download from right here on the forum. Hokes is a MUST READ if you want to be successfull at recovering & refining presious metals. Read it & re-read it until you understand it - do that along with spending a couple weeks read stuff here on the forum.
THEN - start with some new small batch experments to learn the process of what you learned from reading & at this point you will be able to start asking question with things you are having trouble with &/or things you don't understand.
After you have read/studied Hokes & the forum & after you have got the process down from doing small batch experments - then you can go back to the mud from this first batch & recover the values from it - because then - & only then will you understand what you did wrong & how to fix it.
Kurt
megaplow
To give you an idea of what we are talking about by tell you to cement your values out of solution using copper here is a picture of some silver I just started cementing out of solution using copper.
Copper will cement out only silver, gold & platinum group metals because of were copper is in the reactivity series of metals - what happens is that because copper is more reactive then silver, gold & PGMs when you put copper in a solution that has silver, gold or PGMs in it, the copper being more reactive goes into solution causing the silver, gold or PGMs to drop out.
If you have a lot of "free" acid in the solution (acid that has not been used to dissolve the silver, gold or PGMs) then the acid will go to work dissolving the copper "before" it start's cementing out the values.
Because iron is more reactive then copper - iron can be used to cement out the copper - "after" copper has been used to cement silver, gold or PGMs. Iron will cement other metals besides copper (including silver,gold & PGMs)
Gold & PGMs cemented with copper will be a very ultra fine "black" cement (it will pass right through most filters) unlike the courser fine crystal like silver cement you see here in the picture.
So now you can see why it is important that you do some reading & studing before you start doing things &/or before you start asking questions. --- This is just a hint of what you have to learn "first"!!!
Kurt
To give you an idea of what we are talking about by tell you to cement your values out of solution using copper here is a picture of some silver I just started cementing out of solution using copper.
Copper will cement out only silver, gold & platinum group metals because of were copper is in the reactivity series of metals - what happens is that because copper is more reactive then silver, gold & PGMs when you put copper in a solution that has silver, gold or PGMs in it, the copper being more reactive goes into solution causing the silver, gold or PGMs to drop out.
If you have a lot of "free" acid in the solution (acid that has not been used to dissolve the silver, gold or PGMs) then the acid will go to work dissolving the copper "before" it start's cementing out the values.
Because iron is more reactive then copper - iron can be used to cement out the copper - "after" copper has been used to cement silver, gold or PGMs. Iron will cement other metals besides copper (including silver,gold & PGMs)
Gold & PGMs cemented with copper will be a very ultra fine "black" cement (it will pass right through most filters) unlike the courser fine crystal like silver cement you see here in the picture.
So now you can see why it is important that you do some reading & studing before you start doing things &/or before you start asking questions. --- This is just a hint of what you have to learn "first"!!!
Kurt
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patnor1011
Well-known member
He did not cemented first solution but diluted with water. He then placed all powder from diluted solution in HCl. I did not see anything about incineration. If he just placed powders from Nitric solution to HCl without incineration of material he just dissolved dropped copper chloride with some gold again. He is at his start point again and have values dissolved with base metals.
patnor1011 said:
Hi Pat - yes, I understood that - I was trying to explain why he is being told to cement his values (so he can get to a point of actually refining them) as well as how &/or why cementing works.
He made the common mistake of putting whole CBs in acid & thats what we know for sure. Was it enough acide to dissolve base metals & values - or just base metals. If he dissolved just base metal - then his value is still in the mud. --- Ether way (value or no value in solution) a piece of copper will tell him - he will ether get a value to cement back - or not. (if there is gold or PGMs in solution it could take a day or two to cement them out)
Thats what I would do with the solution at this time - then a lot of reading & small batch experements to get an understanding - then come back to clean up the first batch mistakes.
Thats how I learned - after making the same mistake when I first started a couple years ago
Kurt
patnor1011
Well-known member
I recommended cementing right on start of this thread, he decided to dilute with water. Then I advised him to incinerate and it looks like he skipped that and put it straight to HCl. If that is what he did he is in a hurry but that just made him to make another lets say failed attempt to recover whatever is in his batch.
Whoever want to recover or refine gold need to take time to understand process, go slow, do testing batches and when procedure is mastered then move on to larger batches or more complicated methods. We all went through this and we all know that understanding of what is going on or what will happen is major part of success.
Whoever want to recover or refine gold need to take time to understand process, go slow, do testing batches and when procedure is mastered then move on to larger batches or more complicated methods. We all went through this and we all know that understanding of what is going on or what will happen is major part of success.
patnor1011 said:
:lol: Yep - right on - you hit the nail on the head with that post Pat - & of course that is the "promise" shor sell's --- buy our kit & in a "hurry" you will be making money from the GOLD in electronics :shock: :lol: :x :evil: :lol:
Anyway I posted trying to explain to megaplow what the process of cementing is - how & why it works -in the hope that he would/will understand why you & others said to do this & also so he can see that recovering/refining PMs from electronics is more involved then the promise of shor & the kit they sell.
Megaplow - if you are still here - 2 years ago I was in your shoes. I was working off of limited info & "bad" info found on the internet. --- Then I found this forum & thanks to the good people of this forum (some of them with as much as 40 years experience of refining precious metals) I am now having real success.
Like me - if this is something you really want to do - then this is the right place to learn about it - in fact the very best place in the world - but please understand this is not something that happens in a hurry (as shor would have you believe) it takes time to do the reading reseaching studing expermenting & asking question to succeed.
Kurt
megaplow
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2012
- Messages
- 38
Hey All,
Thank you again for all the knowledge. When I started this process I had no idea what I was getting into. Like you have all said, the Subzero sales pitch makes it sound super easy. Once I had a gallon of black acid on my hands I found I was pretty committed to the project. More environmentally than what the salvage might be. I have been reading around on the site and am blown away with what you are getting out of memory sticks and chips. Now I am interested in knowing the craft and salvaging precious metals from my chip and circuit board collection. I still havent read the Hokes book, but that is starting tonight.
After finding this picture:
I feel I have been dealing with palladium instead of gold. When I was testing my original solution (prior to precipitation) the test spots were turning super dark which I took as "purple-black" but I feel they may have been an extreme dark green.
Currently I have my salvaged solids dissolved in HCL (muriatic acid). The solution is black. Last week I put some copper in there to start the cementing process. I have tipped the solution so I could see to the bottom. There is black power on the bottom and the copper in the solution is turning silver.
My original acid (in a separate bucket) is turning an amazing blue which I can only imagine is due to copper.
Back to work then home to spend some quality time with Hokes,
Joe
Thank you again for all the knowledge. When I started this process I had no idea what I was getting into. Like you have all said, the Subzero sales pitch makes it sound super easy. Once I had a gallon of black acid on my hands I found I was pretty committed to the project. More environmentally than what the salvage might be. I have been reading around on the site and am blown away with what you are getting out of memory sticks and chips. Now I am interested in knowing the craft and salvaging precious metals from my chip and circuit board collection. I still havent read the Hokes book, but that is starting tonight.
After finding this picture:
I feel I have been dealing with palladium instead of gold. When I was testing my original solution (prior to precipitation) the test spots were turning super dark which I took as "purple-black" but I feel they may have been an extreme dark green.
Currently I have my salvaged solids dissolved in HCL (muriatic acid). The solution is black. Last week I put some copper in there to start the cementing process. I have tipped the solution so I could see to the bottom. There is black power on the bottom and the copper in the solution is turning silver.
My original acid (in a separate bucket) is turning an amazing blue which I can only imagine is due to copper.
Back to work then home to spend some quality time with Hokes,
Joe
qst42know
Well-known member
When you do get into Hoke's you will find the method to get gold out of the way of your palladium test. I won't spoil it for you. :mrgreen:
No Hope is lost, your going to read Hoke's book, So Hope is just beginning.
megaplow
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2012
- Messages
- 38
Hey All,
Hokes is the woman. I REALLY wish there was mention of his book or better instruction in my SubZero kit. I havent made any moves with my solution nor have I started a new batch. I do, however have a few questions.
I looked at the black fluid that is my 1st batch. The copper I put in for the concreting process has mostly dissolved. I am assuming its because I am using muriatic acid instead of HCL. Now I have that much more copper to get out of the fluid, wer wer.
I am using "Safer Muriatic Acid" instead of HCL.
Can Muriatic acid be substituted for HCL and is there any difference between "Safer Muriatic" and the regular old "Muriatic"?
I live in San Francisco, do you know where I can get HCL and Nitric acid?
Thanks in advance,
Joe
Hokes is the woman. I REALLY wish there was mention of his book or better instruction in my SubZero kit. I havent made any moves with my solution nor have I started a new batch. I do, however have a few questions.
I looked at the black fluid that is my 1st batch. The copper I put in for the concreting process has mostly dissolved. I am assuming its because I am using muriatic acid instead of HCL. Now I have that much more copper to get out of the fluid, wer wer.
I am using "Safer Muriatic Acid" instead of HCL.
Can Muriatic acid be substituted for HCL and is there any difference between "Safer Muriatic" and the regular old "Muriatic"?
I live in San Francisco, do you know where I can get HCL and Nitric acid?
Thanks in advance,
Joe
jimdoc
Well-known member
megaplow said:
Let me be the first to say, Hoke was not a man. Shor doesn't want to teach you to refine like Miss Hoke did, they just want to sell you stuff.
Jim
patnor1011
Well-known member
megaplow said:
You do not get copper out of solution. What for? You just carry on and put more copper inside until it stop dissolving. Cementing is here for exactly that. Replacing one metal in solution by another one. In your case you want to dissolve copper so copper will push gold out.
megaplow said:
You have a lot of study ahead but don't worry you will get there, it all just take some time. HCl is Hydrochloric acid - the same as Muriatic acid. Muriatic is just older name but still being used.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hydrochloric+acid&l=1
patnor1011
Well-known member
Recovery of copper from solution is done at the end when you do not have any values inside and you want to properly dispose of your waste. Use sheet of iron (casing from floppy or cd/dvd drive). You will cement copper this time replacing it by iron. When no more of copper will drop out of solution you decant, save copper powder and neutralize with soda ash. Then it is safe to dispose.
megaplow - As patnor said muriatic acid & HCL are the exact same thing just different names - use the regular old muriatic for your refining.
Now you are starting to understand why we say it is so important for you to spend a "great" deal of time doing some study &/or research work before moving ahead with any more refining.
Its called cementing - not concreting --- go back & read (again) what I posted about cementing - I explained it in detail - IF (thats a big if) you have any values in solution copper will cement out the values & only the values (silver, gold & PGMs) silver will be a course cement that can be filtered - gold & PGMs will be ultra fine & will go through a filter - they will accumulate on your copper as a very very fine black slime &/or settle to the bottom as a very very fine black slime or sludge. Use heavy pieces of copper NOT copper wire.
And as Pat said - after you have cemented the values out using copper - you can then cement the copper out using iron.
Now you are starting to understand why we say it is so important for you to spend a "great" deal of time doing some study &/or research work before moving ahead with any more refining.
Its called cementing - not concreting --- go back & read (again) what I posted about cementing - I explained it in detail - IF (thats a big if) you have any values in solution copper will cement out the values & only the values (silver, gold & PGMs) silver will be a course cement that can be filtered - gold & PGMs will be ultra fine & will go through a filter - they will accumulate on your copper as a very very fine black slime &/or settle to the bottom as a very very fine black slime or sludge. Use heavy pieces of copper NOT copper wire.
And as Pat said - after you have cemented the values out using copper - you can then cement the copper out using iron.
Photobacterium
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- Jul 7, 2011
- Messages
- 113
megaplow said:
in a way, it's a form of Long Term investment.
your values are tucked safely away, locked up perhaps better than if they were in a vault.
meanwhile, the general trend for their $ value is UP.
megaplow
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2012
- Messages
- 38
Hey All,
Its been some time. I have been messing around with the familiarity experiments. It might be time for me to go back and clean up my original solution. Currently my solution is super dark and fully saturated with copper. Additional copper at this point sits on the bottom. There is no mud on the bottom of my container.
Can you please let me know if these are the right next steps?
1) Carefully reduce the solution down to a syrup - (to remove nitric acid)
2) Add some HCL and see if it makes fumes
3) Repeat 1 and 2 till no more nitric acid is present.
4) Dilute 4 to 1 with water
5) Add copperas.
I would love to start my next batch, the right way, but I feel cleaning up the 1st round is a good idea.
Joe
Its been some time. I have been messing around with the familiarity experiments. It might be time for me to go back and clean up my original solution. Currently my solution is super dark and fully saturated with copper. Additional copper at this point sits on the bottom. There is no mud on the bottom of my container.
Can you please let me know if these are the right next steps?
1) Carefully reduce the solution down to a syrup - (to remove nitric acid)
2) Add some HCL and see if it makes fumes
3) Repeat 1 and 2 till no more nitric acid is present.
4) Dilute 4 to 1 with water
5) Add copperas.
I would love to start my next batch, the right way, but I feel cleaning up the 1st round is a good idea.
Joe
maynman1751
Well-known member
You say that there is metallic copper in the solution that has not dissolved? If so, there is NO nitric left. Is what you have just the liquid off of your first process? No solids other than the copper? No black residue in the bottom of vessel? Answer these and we'll go from there.
MysticColby
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2011
- Messages
- 425
The point of adding copper was to get all of your gold to solid form so you can dispose of the liquid (set it aside, make sure no valuables, neutralize, dispose of properly) and start from square 1 again. Please don't skip around now that you're on track.
also: I didn't see any mention of how much you started with (just pounds of ingredients), so the amount of gold powder may not look like very much, especially in a container that holds gallons of liquid.
Muriatic Acid is another name for Hydrochloric Acid (HCl). What concerns me was the 'safer' part: didn't I read somewhere on here that 'safer muriatic acid' is not pure HCl? that it has additives that reduce it's reactivity and may interfere with refining?
also: I didn't see any mention of how much you started with (just pounds of ingredients), so the amount of gold powder may not look like very much, especially in a container that holds gallons of liquid.
Muriatic Acid is another name for Hydrochloric Acid (HCl). What concerns me was the 'safer' part: didn't I read somewhere on here that 'safer muriatic acid' is not pure HCl? that it has additives that reduce it's reactivity and may interfere with refining?
