2nd trail for processing fingers in AP

[ahmadbayoumi]

Thanks a lot MarcoP for your reply.

I'm trying small batches for sake of mastering the process itself then would go for larger batches.

Currently, the only available process is the the water wash as mentioned earlier by Pat.

I managed to re-incinerate those chips that haven't in the initial incineration.

Them smashed/crushed them all (including the silicone wafer) to powder. Then removed the metallic legs using a strong magnet.

The next step should be now the water wash and I'm intending to use the salinated water to help reduce the number of water washings/pourings required.

 

[MarcoP]

How much have you been able to reduce your concentrate to, 300ml?

Thanks a lot MarcoP for your reply.

I'm trying small batches for sake of mastering the process itself then would go for larger batches.

Currently, the only available process is the the water wash as mentioned earlier by Pat.

I managed to re-incinerate those chips that haven't in the initial incineration.

Them smashed/crushed them all (including the silicone wafer) to powder. Then removed the metallic legs using a strong magnet.

The next step should be now the water wash and I'm intending to use the salinated water to help reduce the number of water washings/pourings required.

Oh that's a small test batch, in my tiny and irregular supplies I can only afford testing incineration with part of my low yield chips, but can fortunately afford plenty of time observing and taking care of procedures. I'm on the early stage learnings of this in-house adventure and I'm still having hard time reducing the spills and changing containers to an acceptable level.

Any particular reason why you pulverized the silicon wafer instead of just pulling them away? Legs may still have some gold attached to them, but as I'm aware the wafers are bare of any metal and easier to pull them away when integers. Pulverized silicon wafer will remain with the wires increasing the volume of the concentrate but it's not entirely a bad thing, I think it could trap and hold bond wires giving you a bigger margin of error on your washes. I would have started from the legs, then what's left from wafers and for last ashes, but I might be wrong.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

The reason I crushed the silicone wafers long with the gold wires is that for my understanding, no one in this forum advised that they should be removed.

Also, these wafers may contain very fine gold wires/powder.

For the legs, I'll process them separately in AP

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Sorry MarcoP, I didn't answer your question

Till the moment, I didn't start the water washes for the ashes and I'm asking here which is the best practice for this step

 

[patnor1011]

The reason I crushed the silicone wafers long with the gold wires is that for my understanding, no one in this forum advised that they should be removed.

It is better to remove them, no point to introduce crushed glass in concentrate.

Also, these wafers may contain very fine gold wires/powder.

Wires -no, powder -dont think so. There may be some plating on one side but that is negligible. They are better off collected, you can give them a wash in warm AR to get rest of gold solder if there is any on sides. If they are crushed they are like glass.

For the legs, I'll process them separately in AP

That you may reconsider, it will take enormous amounts of acid and a lot of time. Not to mention that some do have Ag plating and some do contain Ag/Pd solder. They will be dissolved quickly with HNO3.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Many thanks for you Pat

Will try to remove them in my next batch but at least no harm in crushing them along with the gold wires .. isn't it ?

For the legs, do you mean to drop them directly in HNO3 to dissolve Pd/Ag ?

 

[patnor1011]

I tend to incinerate properly and remove wafers and pins. Magnetic ones with magnet and non magnetic with HNO3. Point is that you then work with wires which easily accumulate - tangle together. Rather than with super fine powder/particles from disintegrated wires. Another point is that when you crush hard your not burned IC where you do have hard plastic present along with metallic legs gold bonding wires tend to smear on pins. You will notice them to become "golden".
Do not focus on Ag/Pd at this stage, that may be interesting only if you do work with significant quantities of IC. Whatever Ag and Pd get dissolved in HNO3 and AR will be recovered from stock pot provided you are saving your waste solutions.

Minutes extra spend on incineration will save you hours when crushing and washing.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Thanks Pat

Noted and would try to incinerate the chips very well to to remove Si wafers from the beginning.

But what do you think about using salinated water (Water+Table salt) for separating junk/plastic staff from gold wires/powder ?

As I want to speed up the ash washing part and to avoid losing values as much as I can.

 

[patnor1011]

I have no idea what you mean. I always incinerate completely so I do have just ash to deal with. Ash with metallic parts. I do not have any plastic or junk so I cant really say what water and salt will do. Simple water with washing up liquid works for me fine. Water can be reused if you let it sit till ash settle down.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

I'm concerned about washing the resulting ashes.

I know that this step is essential to remove all non metallic staff.

But, this would be very time consuming process and would require more that 10 washings/pourings, so I'm thinking about adding some table salt (salinated water)(instead of the dish soup) to the washing water to speed up the process using the relative density theory.

I don't know the effectiveness of this approach but I saw it somewhere here in the forum as a suggestion.

I know that there are some alternatives for this step but all are not available currently. So the only way is water washing so I need to find a workaround to speedup this step and to avoid losing any values during pouring.

Also, I read here that it would be better not to drain the water away but I should use a larger bucket, and I think that it may require a bathtub to hold all the washing water which is definitely not practical and not logic.

So, I'm thinking about a time effective and efficient way for using the water washing process here and need your help.

Also, what do you mean by "Water can be reused if you let it sit till ash settle down"

 

[bswartzwelder]

Adding dish soap or a product like JetDry breaks up surface tension and helps things drop more easily. Everything you add could possibly react with your ashes and may have to be removed later on in the process. That's why people keep saying "Don't try to reinvent the wheel.".

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Thanks a lot bswartzwelder

However, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel but rather I'm trying to find a workaround to over come the issues with the plain water washes.

For my and as I'm not experienced enough, I'm afraid of losing values .. this is the whole point here 8)

 

[bswartzwelder]

I believe that Patnor1011 is saying to let everything sit in the water. After a while, everything will either settle to the bottom or float to the top. If it floats to the top, stir or agitate the top level a little violently to make sure everything gets quite wet. That's where the soap or Jet Dry will help. Once a piece of gold gets completely wetted, even the smallest pieces of gold will eventually sink to the bottom. If you do this several times, all the gold will eventually sink to the bottom.

Do this several times and anything that still floats can be poured off (and saved if you think it still has gold). Let the water stand for a day or so and everything else will sink to the bottom. Decant the water on top and save it for reuse. The gold will be in the ashes left on the bottom. No need to add salt or anything else. Anything you add that isn't gold will have to come out again at some time in the future possibly complicating things. Salt is made of sodium and chlorine and while I have never heard of the chlorine evaporating out of the solution (the worlds oceans have been salty for eons), it does add another chemical to the mix which we will want to get rid of if we truly want to refine to the highest purity.

Adding salt is doing what most people on the forum regard as reinventing the wheel. You're doing something that has probably been tried by someone else at one point and it didn't work. If it had, everyone would be doing it as an accepted practice. It's not unlike using Urea. That was once the norm and many people used it. Now, almost no one uses it where gold is concerned, but it does make your grass greener.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Many thanks for you bswartzwelder

I really do appreciate your below valuable information.

I'm convinced about your point of view about adding table salt and I'll not use it.

But I'm not sure what is the point of reusing the decanted water .. Why I should save this water for to be reused ?

 

[patnor1011]

I meant little different thing. Pour waste water to large bucket, when that waste settle there will be ash on bottom and you can reuse that water again. I do it when I use my sluice. I direct waste water to large container (about cubic meter). Next day water is fairly clean when all ash and dust settle in bottom. I decant that water for reuse and let settled ash to dry. When I do have bucket full of that ash and dust I usually run it through sluice again, just to make sure any gold escaped during initial wash. Better safe than sorry.

Make yourself this one cheaply. With combination of large container to catch waste water and cheap pump it will work just fine for you.

 

[Shark]

Trying to balance the correct amount of salt to water ratio can be very tedious and time consuming. Patnor has a great suggestion and pictures that really help explain what he suggests. To much salt and the tiny metal wires will float on the surface, not enough and some ash will sink. I gave up on the idea just because of the time it was taking me. I built a blue bowl type wash and it worked pretty good,it was more complicated and expensive than Patnor's idea, and I also think his idea is easier to adjust and fine tune to the materials we usually work with.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Thanks a lot Pat

I'll try to make my own sluice but 1st I'll try the washing/pouring method.

I do understand the need to why I need to let the ash settle in bottom and because it may contain very fine gold traces.

But really I need to understand why I should reuse a dirty an unclean water again .. what is the point behind this ?

Also thanks a lot Shark

I'll not use the salt water in my washings but rather I'll use Pat's method (washing/pouring)

 

[patnor1011]

Thanks a lot Pat

I'll try to make my own sluice but 1st I'll try the washing/pouring method.

I do understand the need to why I need to let the ash settle in bottom and because it may contain very fine gold traces.

But really I need to understand why I should reuse a dirty an unclean water again .. what is the point behind this ?

Also thanks a lot Shark

I'll not use the salt water in my washings but rather I'll use Pat's method (washing/pouring)

You said that a lot of water is used, in that way you will save on water.
That water will be perfectly usable if you leave it sit long enough for ash to settle on bottom. It will not be drinkable but can be reused for washing. When all ash settle water will be slightly cloudy but fairly clean.

 

[ahmadbayoumi]

Thanks Pat

I got your point .. Sure saving water from the environmental point of view is required as at the end we have limited resources in our planet.

Great thinking 8)

I just though there's any technical point here but seems not

 

[MarcoP]

A blue bowl will run better with soapy water, not sure about sluice tough.