jason_recliner
Well-known member
That is NOT Aqua Regia!
Beginner questions and mistakes
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HCL + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regiajason_recliner said:
Muriatic Acid + Nitric Acid = Aqua Regia
Muriatic Acid + Bleach Or Muriatic Acid + Peroxide (1:1 ratio) = Aqua Regia.... but technically muriatic acid and peroxide is called AP.
I know Muriatic Acid + Peroxide = AP (Acid Peroxide) but if you use a 1:1 ratio you'll make AR in the sense that it will dissolve the gold.
If any chemicals combined together to dissolve gold would be considered Aqua Regia to me, but technically AR is HCL + Nitric Acid.
wikipedia said:
On an ending note, muriatic acid and bleach is not AP because there is no peroxide in it, so what would one call it? I call it Poor Man's AR because it'll do the same thing as HCL+ Nitric Acid.
Also, although wikipedia says a 1:3 ratio (1 part Nitric to 3 parts HCL) is overkill to say the least. Nitric can only be measured accurately when you have done an equal amount of batches of the same process to dissolve gold.
That's my take on it.
Grelko
Well-known member
I've seen alot of mis-information on YT but some of it is decent. I would rather come here to find most of the information I need to do this though.
I actually used the 1-1 ratio because I don't have a bubbler, so I figured that the added oxygen in the solution would help it continue until I did get one.
jason_recliner said:
If I had the room "and could actually find Nitric" I would make AR. AP works good for now and I have plenty of time to learn all of the different processes and read.
Here's a question.
I doubt it, but since I will be dissolving most/all of the gold with AP because of large amount of the peroxide, is it possible that I could wash it then drop with SMB instead of using HCL/CL because of the fumes. I know it wouldn't be nearly as pure as using HCL/CL, but if I washed it with hot HCL/hot water and re-dissolved the powder with AP 1-1 a few times, the base metals would mostly be gone, which would take out the need for CL all together? I was just wondering because of the fumes.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
HCl and H2O2 are actually used by many to dissolve gold powders. It is slower than HCl/Cl and much slower than AR.
To dissolve basemetals along with gold has always to be avoided whenever possible. This is the last option when everything else would fail.
Be aware of that HCl/H2O2 and HCl/CuCl2 are two different things. This might be confusing for many noobs, since some ml H2O2 are often used to kickstart the HCl/CuCl2-system, but thereafter only aeration is used to get it done. H2O2 is too powerful to be a good provider of oxygen. It works, but you have to have some experience to know where your gold is. I would not advise it.
To dissolve basemetals along with gold has always to be avoided whenever possible. This is the last option when everything else would fail.
Be aware of that HCl/H2O2 and HCl/CuCl2 are two different things. This might be confusing for many noobs, since some ml H2O2 are often used to kickstart the HCl/CuCl2-system, but thereafter only aeration is used to get it done. H2O2 is too powerful to be a good provider of oxygen. It works, but you have to have some experience to know where your gold is. I would not advise it.
jason_recliner
Well-known member
There is plenty of decent solid chemistry on YouTube. I for one rather like NurdRage and have learned several useful techniques.
Of course there is a lot of misinformation there too. We don't need it here.
Kevin, Aqua Regia (AR) is a very specific thing. It is 3 parts hydrochloric acid HCl and 1 part nitric acid HNO3. Period. It does not have an alternate recipe.
Poor Man's Aqua Regia (PMAR) can be made from a nitrate salt such as sodium nitrate. The forum is full of detail on how to make this lesser version, similar to Aqua Regia but in salt water.
HCl + H2O2. How many NO3 molecules in that? None. This is acid/peroxide (AP) and is only used to start the cupric chloride solution. It may dissolve some gold until the oxidiser evaporates or is used. But AP, in any ratio, is not AR. It is not PMAR. And once started, the CuCl2 solution will not dissolve gold.
Likewise, hydrochloric acid + sodium hypochlorite bleach can dissolve fine particles and foils of gold. But is not Aqua Regia and it has no relation to AP or cupric chloride solution.
Just because a solution is capable of dissolving gold, does not mean it is Aqua Regia. Birds fly. Bats fly, but it doesn't make them birds. You can think of it any way you like, but please don't spread misinformation.
Grelko,
The AP process will dissolve your pins. It's is slow and a sulphuric cell would be a better option in volume. But it will work.
You really don't want to dissolve your gold. You want to dissolve base metals. Filtering solids from liquids is easy.
You are trying to dissolve gold and recement it as fine powder on pins that you want to remove from solution. Filtering solids from solids is hard and causes loss of values.
From here, the correct thing to do is dissolve all base metals, leaving you with maybe a few gold flakes and now powder. Do not add any more peroxide, just let it take its course. The solution will adsorb some oxygen from the air, even if you don't have a bubbler. Sloshing the jar around occasionally may also be helpful.
Understand that there won't be much gold to show per ounce of pins.
Of course there is a lot of misinformation there too. We don't need it here.
Kevin, Aqua Regia (AR) is a very specific thing. It is 3 parts hydrochloric acid HCl and 1 part nitric acid HNO3. Period. It does not have an alternate recipe.
Poor Man's Aqua Regia (PMAR) can be made from a nitrate salt such as sodium nitrate. The forum is full of detail on how to make this lesser version, similar to Aqua Regia but in salt water.
HCl + H2O2. How many NO3 molecules in that? None. This is acid/peroxide (AP) and is only used to start the cupric chloride solution. It may dissolve some gold until the oxidiser evaporates or is used. But AP, in any ratio, is not AR. It is not PMAR. And once started, the CuCl2 solution will not dissolve gold.
Likewise, hydrochloric acid + sodium hypochlorite bleach can dissolve fine particles and foils of gold. But is not Aqua Regia and it has no relation to AP or cupric chloride solution.
Just because a solution is capable of dissolving gold, does not mean it is Aqua Regia. Birds fly. Bats fly, but it doesn't make them birds. You can think of it any way you like, but please don't spread misinformation.
Grelko,
The AP process will dissolve your pins. It's is slow and a sulphuric cell would be a better option in volume. But it will work.
You really don't want to dissolve your gold. You want to dissolve base metals. Filtering solids from liquids is easy.
You are trying to dissolve gold and recement it as fine powder on pins that you want to remove from solution. Filtering solids from solids is hard and causes loss of values.
From here, the correct thing to do is dissolve all base metals, leaving you with maybe a few gold flakes and now powder. Do not add any more peroxide, just let it take its course. The solution will adsorb some oxygen from the air, even if you don't have a bubbler. Sloshing the jar around occasionally may also be helpful.
Understand that there won't be much gold to show per ounce of pins.
solar_plasma
Well-known member
As an additional information in order to avoid confusion:
Jason is right about AR, but we often or mostly use it in a modified way, as we add HCl until the material is a little more than covered and then add HNO3 in small increments, giving it good time to react. This way we have the chance to see when the reaction stops and we don't add a large excess of nitric. Knowing how much gold is in there helps a lot.
Jason is right about AR, but we often or mostly use it in a modified way, as we add HCl until the material is a little more than covered and then add HNO3 in small increments, giving it good time to react. This way we have the chance to see when the reaction stops and we don't add a large excess of nitric. Knowing how much gold is in there helps a lot.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Palladium said:
This is a good post from Palladium. I agree that you've got to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff with regards to Youtube or any other platform from which you are attempting to glean knowledge. Even this forum has incorrect information within the host of great information because it's darn nigh impossible for an information resource to be 100% correct in any form.
Some of the tube videos are ridiculously funny though, or they would be if some muppet wasn't playing fast and loose with peoples' lives.
bswartzwelder
Well-known member
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I have read most of this thread with great interest. I would say that 99% of the time we do not know exactly how much gold is present in the items we are dealing with. We cannot accurately measure the thickness of the gold on finger contacts nor on pins. So, in my humble opinion, it is worthless to mix up a 400 ml batch of AR to try and dissolve the gold from a few ounces of the items we are dealing with. The exact recipe of the AR is meaningless if we don't know how much gold is there in the first place.
Many of the members have found this out the hard way (myself included) when we mixed up a batch of AR and had to deal with an excess of nitric acid. So what's a person to do? Having an excess of HCl in the mix isn't a problem. But you need to be sure you use enough HCl. Pour your HCl into your vessel (a metal bucket would be a poor choice) and then add your nitric acid. Add it slowly, and in small increments. WAIT for the reaction to work its magic. If all the gold dissolves, chances are you have used too much nitric and will have to get rid of it before you try to precipitate. Watch the reaction!
If you haven't added too much nitric, the reaction will slow down and perhaps not all the gold will dissolve. This is what you want. At that point, add the nitric in small increments to avoid adding too much. And, once again, wait to see if all the gold dissolves. Once all the gold has dissolved, you are ready to precipitate it back out of the solution using your method of choice. I have found SMB works well, but there are others like ferrous sulfate (commonly called copperas) or oxalic acid which will precipitate your gold and leave some of the other metals still in solution. Every precipitation method has its pros and cons. Oxalic acid needs to be near the boiling point to work effectively.
If you have used too much nitric, and you try to precipitate, some of the gold will precipitate. If the solution had other metals in it such as copper, the gold could cement out onto the copper. If the solution had only gold in it, the gold could precipitate out of the solution and be re-dissolved because there was too much unused nitric left in the solution. When I first started, I did just exactly that. I precipitated my gold out of the solution, checked it with stannous chloride and got a negative for gold. I then put the beaker down because it was getting late. The next morning when I got up, the solution was clear and there was no gold to be seen. Another test with stannous chloride showed the solution, which had no gold in it the night before, now tested positive for gold once again. What had happened was the excess nitric had re-dissolved the gold. This time, I added a little sulfamic acid to kill off any nitric left and re-precipitated the gold. As soon as it had settled, I decanted the solution and set it aside. Later, I retested it and found the gold had not re-dissolved and that there was no gold left in the solution.
It only takes a drop or two of stannous chloride to know if your solution has gold in it or not. It is not expensive to make it yourself. However, it will go bad after sitting for a while. Always test your stannous first on a sample known to have gold in it and then test your unknown solution.
Many of the members have found this out the hard way (myself included) when we mixed up a batch of AR and had to deal with an excess of nitric acid. So what's a person to do? Having an excess of HCl in the mix isn't a problem. But you need to be sure you use enough HCl. Pour your HCl into your vessel (a metal bucket would be a poor choice) and then add your nitric acid. Add it slowly, and in small increments. WAIT for the reaction to work its magic. If all the gold dissolves, chances are you have used too much nitric and will have to get rid of it before you try to precipitate. Watch the reaction!
If you haven't added too much nitric, the reaction will slow down and perhaps not all the gold will dissolve. This is what you want. At that point, add the nitric in small increments to avoid adding too much. And, once again, wait to see if all the gold dissolves. Once all the gold has dissolved, you are ready to precipitate it back out of the solution using your method of choice. I have found SMB works well, but there are others like ferrous sulfate (commonly called copperas) or oxalic acid which will precipitate your gold and leave some of the other metals still in solution. Every precipitation method has its pros and cons. Oxalic acid needs to be near the boiling point to work effectively.
If you have used too much nitric, and you try to precipitate, some of the gold will precipitate. If the solution had other metals in it such as copper, the gold could cement out onto the copper. If the solution had only gold in it, the gold could precipitate out of the solution and be re-dissolved because there was too much unused nitric left in the solution. When I first started, I did just exactly that. I precipitated my gold out of the solution, checked it with stannous chloride and got a negative for gold. I then put the beaker down because it was getting late. The next morning when I got up, the solution was clear and there was no gold to be seen. Another test with stannous chloride showed the solution, which had no gold in it the night before, now tested positive for gold once again. What had happened was the excess nitric had re-dissolved the gold. This time, I added a little sulfamic acid to kill off any nitric left and re-precipitated the gold. As soon as it had settled, I decanted the solution and set it aside. Later, I retested it and found the gold had not re-dissolved and that there was no gold left in the solution.
It only takes a drop or two of stannous chloride to know if your solution has gold in it or not. It is not expensive to make it yourself. However, it will go bad after sitting for a while. Always test your stannous first on a sample known to have gold in it and then test your unknown solution.
jason_recliner
Well-known member
This is of course correct, as is Björn. AR will dissolve gold but we only want to "just barely" dissolve gold.bswartzwelder said:
It was not my intent to make exact 3:1 proportions a point of focus so much as ingredients.
You can't swap gin for scotch, vermouth for cola, and still call it a martini.
Grelko
Well-known member
solar_plasma said:
That's good to know, and I'm just doing this as a hobby so time isn't an issue, the solution is just sits on the picnic table.
I didn't really want to dissolve everything unless I had to, but living so close to others, and not being ready to mix electric/acid for a sulfuric cell, this seemed to be my best option. Just stripping the plating off WOULD be alot easier.
I'm still learning the different procedures. I figured that the added oxygen from the H2O2 would add enough oxygen for me to be able to keep it going until I got a bubbler. I didn't think that 3% was going to do too much compared to say 25% H2O2 besides dissolving the copper etc.
So far, suprisingly the stannous test showed negative "unless I screwed up making it". The recipe I used is in another post.
jason_recliner said:
Once I learn more and find somewhere to safely keep a sulfuric cell I definately will be. I still have a bit over 3 pounds of pins to go through. The 3 ounces is just a test to see how the different processes work for different items. I "might" end up getting .05g of gold from it, if that much, but it's alot of fun.
Filtering the flakes from the pins shouldn't be too bad, as long as the acid doesn't melt the plastic canvas (the square hole ones for yarn or art projects etc) because the flakes are very small and the pins wont fit through the holes. Then I can just filter the flakes by themselves and go from there.
I mix the solution a 2 or 3 times a day with a plastic spoon and don't tighten the lid, so that it can react with the air.
solar_plasma said:
This is what I was going to do with the HCL/CL step once I get to it "and find a place to do it at". Take a dropper and only use a couple ml of CL and give it a few minutes between to see when all of the gold is dissolved.
Thanks for all this information guys, the more I read about the different processes, the better I feel about actually doing them, since I'm getting the basics and advanced steps, safety measures, and different mistakes, plus new ideas that might work, all at the same time as if I was reading a book about it.
Grelko
Well-known member
Well, it's been a little over 2 weeks and the pins are still very slowly dissolving. I haven't seen any change in the color of the solution or pins over the last week, even after adding 2 more ounces of HCL. The solution is still pretty light green and the pins look copper/rust colored. I have a feeling that the pins may have actually had iron or lead in them which is stopping the process, or perhaps 1 of the materials in the pins is plating itself back on. There may be a coating on the pins that I didn't notice at first, but I have filtered out a small amount of gold flakes about a week ago, before I added the extra HCL.
They started out as full gold plated pins.
I tighten the lid and shake the jar a few times per day for about 30 seconds each time. I still need to get a bubbler.
I was going to filter the pins and any flakes that are left in the solution, then boil them in water for a couple hours to see if there's any soluble materials cemented to them, filter that, and put the pins back into another mix of HCL/peroxide, but only using a small amount of perodixe this time.
I'm wondering if I should try putting the pins into HCL without the peroxide for a few days first.
They started out as full gold plated pins.
I tighten the lid and shake the jar a few times per day for about 30 seconds each time. I still need to get a bubbler.
I was going to filter the pins and any flakes that are left in the solution, then boil them in water for a couple hours to see if there's any soluble materials cemented to them, filter that, and put the pins back into another mix of HCL/peroxide, but only using a small amount of perodixe this time.
I'm wondering if I should try putting the pins into HCL without the peroxide for a few days first.
Geo
Well-known member
Don't add more H2O2. Use fresh HCl and some of the pregnant CuCl2 leach you already have. If you add any more H2O2, you are bound to dissolve some gold.
Grelko
Well-known member
Geo said:
That's what I did about a week ago. I added 2 more ounces of HCL without adding more peroxide, but haven't seen a difference. The solution before adding the extra HCL was 50/50 HCL/peroxide.
The small amount of flakes/powder that was floating around, that I got after filtering the first time, dried a light brown/yellow color. "I know they're still dirty though"
I was going to start over with completely new HCL/peroxide mix, but I could always decant most of what I have and just add HCL to it instead.
I'm not sure about my stannous solution, it's not very old and there's still tin at the bottom, but I haven't seen a positive result yet. (It's possible that I haven't dissolved any gold into any of my solutions yet) The problem is that I haven't gotten a chance to get away from home/neighbors to actually make a gold test solution, but every solution I've tested comes up clear like water without the slightest hint of purple, green, or anything to it so, I'm thinking that It may have gone bad. I can always re-make my stannous and really need to find the time to make a gold test solution for it.
I use a dropper bottle for stannous and dip the very corner of a folded napkin into the solution to be tested. I might be getting to much solution on the napkin for it to show positive, or the slightly off white color may be masking the result. I need to get white plastic spoons etc. to use instead.
I saved all my old solutions, and once I get a positive result for stannous, I'll be checking all of them, then disposing of them properly when I no longer have a use for them.
jason_recliner
Well-known member
If your AP solution has been sitting around a week, there will be no gold in solution. Stannous chloride will not test for gold in solid: whether colloid, fine powder or flakes - only solution. There will very likely have BEEN gold in solution, with so much H2O2 deployed, but any that was digested will now be cemented as fine brown powder.
AP takes TIME. Lots of it.
If you think your solution is saturated or "full", Butcher made an excellent collation of posts about thermally rejuvenating saturated CuCl2 / AP, with very little waste. It took me several re-reads over weeks to understand it properly (I think). If you have some time on your hands, it's well worth a read. Probably even for more experienced members.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20006&p=204406&hilit=ferrous+ferric+cuprous+cupric+white+brown+main+solution+decant+cool#p204406
kuma
Well-known member
Palladium said:
I must say that I fully agree with this sentiment. I've only recently come back to the forum after a three year break, so that I can reacquaint myself with the processes before I go on to the practical side of things (hopefully soon, tic-toc
). This might come back to bite me, but I'm surprised at just how quickly it's all come back to me. Because of this, just yesterday I thought I'd look for some videos on youtube just to see it all from a different angle. I'd not ever spent any real amount of time watching refining videos before as I'd rather read and study the theory and then put it all together in my own mind.
I found whilst watching videos yesterday that I was finishing the presenters sentences for them, I knew exactly what they were saying and what they were doing, and more to the point, I knew exactly why they were doing it.
Had I of not spent so much time studying the forum, I'd have had no real clue what they were doing, or again, why they were doing it. I could have easily tried to reason with myself and tried to fill in the 'blanks' in order that what I had just watched made sense - that's where things could potentially get dangerous.
In summary, I believe that youtube videos do have their place, provided that they're produced by someone who knows what they're saying and what they're actually doing. Coupled with an education from this forum*, I do believe that some well produced videos prove invaluable to some.
I'll finish by saying that I came across Geo's channel yesterday too, great videos Geo! 8)
Kind regards, Chris
I agree that people shouldn't be so quick to judge Youtube. But like all things internet there is no filter, you cannot believe everything you see. I have seen very good video's on Youtube which were accurate and valuable, and I have seen crap which was likely posted for less than educational reasons.
That is why a forum like this is valuable, if someone posts total BS, someone jumps on it quickly and exposes the problem. You don't get that on Youtube, which makes it a problem if you have absolutely no previous knowledge. Unfortunately people will see a Youtube video and instead of saying that looks interesting let me research further, they just jump in and realize, often too late, that they don't know enough.
So Youtube is very valuable but....... a bit of background knowledge, coupled with the visual learning experience of Youtube is better.
I have not seen Geo's Youtube posts but I would like to see them. Link please?
That is why a forum like this is valuable, if someone posts total BS, someone jumps on it quickly and exposes the problem. You don't get that on Youtube, which makes it a problem if you have absolutely no previous knowledge. Unfortunately people will see a Youtube video and instead of saying that looks interesting let me research further, they just jump in and realize, often too late, that they don't know enough.
So Youtube is very valuable but....... a bit of background knowledge, coupled with the visual learning experience of Youtube is better.
I have not seen Geo's Youtube posts but I would like to see them. Link please?
https://www.youtube.com/user/10464jeff/videos
kuma
Well-known member
GSP got there first, 8)
Geo
Well-known member
Thank you guys for the interest. I actually started my youtube channel to share with the forum. I hope to be making more videos soon with some actual refining in them. Almost all of my videos deal with recovery instead of refining. I always felt that recovery was the most important step because it's hard to refine gold from electronics before it's liberated from all the junk.
It would be nice to sticky a list of acceptable videos, along with titles and links and, maybe a few comments. Most of the good ones will be from GRF members. Not being biased - that's just the way it is. There's good videos from people like Ralph, Sam, and Geo. I know there are many other good ones I've seen, but I can't recall, offhand, who did them. There are also old ones on youtube made by knowledgeable members who no longer post. It would be an ongoing thing.
I always thought we could form voluntary committees of, say, 5 knowledgeable dedicated members, in this case, to do most of the work (research, etc) on stuff like this. God knows we have (and have had) a lot of knowledgeable dedicated members.
Just thinking out loud.
I always thought we could form voluntary committees of, say, 5 knowledgeable dedicated members, in this case, to do most of the work (research, etc) on stuff like this. God knows we have (and have had) a lot of knowledgeable dedicated members.
Just thinking out loud.
