Beginner questions and mistakes

[4metals]

Almost all of my videos deal with recovery instead of refining. I always felt that recovery was the most important step because it's hard to refine gold from electronics before it's liberated from all the junk.

This statement is worthy of repeating! What often happens is that members or wannabe refiners think of it all as refining. They have a pile of electronic scrap and take it all the way to fine gold. If you know what you are doing this is fine, but if you are new to this and do all the work and come down to the end and have 3 or 4 grams of gold (and likely dirty gold at that) you will quickly become disheartened.

Experience teaches you to recover the values into a concentrate and save the concentrate up until you have enough to process for a respectable yield. If you are doing this on material you own outright, it is easier because you don't have to pay out based on what you received. But if you are doing toll refining you have the experience to handle the lots and know what to expect.

Again, very important to differentiate between recovery and refining. Thanks Geo!

 

[4metals]

In reference to Chris's suggestion, I would like to add a section of approved video's to add to the library. sounds like a great idea to me.

 

[g_axelsson]

It would be nice to sticky a list of acceptable videos, along with titles and links and, maybe a few comments.

I started on such a list on my wiki, http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/YouTube

So far it's only links to a few of our members...
* https://www.youtube.com/user/sreetips/videos Videos by kadriver, contains a lot about silver and gold but also palladium and platinum.
* https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7MJW65g2CFT9wr0eUx4msg Videos by Palladium, mostly silver related videos but also how to glaze a dish.
* https://www.youtube.com/user/metalicmario/videos Videos by '''goldenchild''', silver chloride, reverse electroplating, seasoning a dish, melting gold and silver, shotting, fume hood.

I have added Geo to that list now.

Göran

 

[solar_plasma]

I think you can add
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzQXL22XJJBAGfMrdwYKTHA
goldnscrap alias indeeditdoes, I think it's samuel-a, right?

 

[Geo]

Indeed. Sam has some very good videos.

 

[Grelko]

I'm not sure about my stannous solution, it's not very old and there's still tin at the bottom, but I haven't seen a positive result yet.

If your AP solution has been sitting around a week, there will be no gold in solution. Stannous chloride will not test for gold in solid: whether colloid, fine powder or flakes - only solution. There will very likely have BEEN gold in solution, with so much H2O2 deployed, but any that was digested will now be cemented as fine brown powder.

AP takes TIME. Lots of it.

If you think your solution is saturated or "full", Butcher made an excellent collation of posts about thermally rejuvenating saturated CuCl2 / AP, with very little waste. It took me several re-reads over weeks to understand it properly (I think). If you have some time on your hands, it's well worth a read. Probably even for more experienced members.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=20006&p=204406&hilit=ferrous+ferric+cuprous+cupric+white+brown+main+solution+decant+cool#p204406

Thanks for the link, I'll definately be reading it. I'm trying to make the least amount of waste possible.

I don't think the solution is full, but I could be wrong. Even though it is light green, it is also very diluted with peroxide, so it wouldn't show up dark green/brown. I read that 1 gallon of HCL is good enough for 2 pounds of material, "pins etc" so I thought 12 ounces of HCL and 12 peroxide should have been enough for only 3 ounces of pins, unless my math was off that day. Even still, it seems that it hasn't done much so far.

I know that if AP continues dissolving metals, it'll eventually cement the gold and other metals out according to the reactivity chart. I should have cleared it up a bit, I meant "all" of the solutions that I've made, not just this 1, but even on the first day or 2, my stannous tests still showed absolutely nothing.

I should have stated that I also knew about stannous not showing any results for solid forms of gold. "Not to sound rude or anything"

Interesting, I didn't know that colloidal gold could be a solid. I knew it was a certain form of gold in solution but, I actually thought that it became metallic gold once it dried. I'm still learning and reading all I can though.

 

[Geo]

Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride.

I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process. You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.

 

[jason_recliner]

Just one minor nitpick if I may.

Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up.

Shaking acids, in a literal sense, is probably not the safest of things to do. I will assume he meant sloshing or swirling, while his main focus was on its ineffectivity.

 

[Shark]

Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride.

I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process. You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.

In my opinion, an air supply is a must for AP to work correctly. I have tried it without one and hated it, it took what seemed like forever. A simple air pump for a fish aquarium can be bought at Walmart for around $7 and a double a pump for around $12. That is pretty cheap for a tool to recover your gold. It will also greatly speed up the time it takes to recover it. Do your self a real favor and get an air pump, you won't regret it for the cost.

 

[kurtak]

I really like the idea of videos made by "trusted" members being added to the library &/or like the library a stand alone category of nothing but videos done by trusted members

Buy the way I don't think I have ever commented on the library - what an AWESOME job you guys are doing to put that together - THANKS for all the time & effort those of you working on it are putting into it :!: :!: :!:

Kurt

 

[Grelko]

Colloidal gold is a solid. The particles are so small that they take a very long time to settle out of solution. The purple color of a positive for gold is metallic gold precipitated by the tin chloride.

I know what the problem is with your process. Anyone that has used AP would know and I can't believe that no one has told you. I will tell you again, for AP to work properly, you must use an oxidizer. Since H2O2 will dissolve gold, that leaves adding oxygen from the air. You need an air pump. This no guess, it is the cause of your problems. To keep trying to do this without doing what has been explained to you and then coming back and asking what could be going wrong makes it seem like your just being hard headed about it. I'm not trying to be rude at all. You need volume. A few cups of solution is not enough. Since AP is not like AR where you need to use as little as possible, you need an over abundance of solution for it to work smoothly. You need to use an air supply. This is not an optional part of the process. You need an air supply or it will take months to dissolve a few ounces of metal. If you can't find one or buy one, without an air pump, I'm not sure you will ever be able to make the process work. Please don't come back in ten or twenty post saying that the solution has been in there for three months with you just giving it a few shakes ever so often and it's still not dissolving the base metal. Go get and air pump and plug it up. Dilute some HCl with water in a 50/50 mixture and add it to the process even if you have to use a bigger container. Once you do what we have been trying to tell you, you will see the difference.

That's where I've gone wrong. I thought that the added oxygen in peroxide WAS the oxidizer, a mistake on my part. Seems to work for gold fingers though, but pins do have alot more metal to dissolve.

It's not that I was being hard-headed, it's that I'm 1 of the people that has an easier time watching someone else, than it is reading about it, unless it's a long drawn out explanation so I don't end up missing certain parts (That's most likely why I usually write long paragraphs also). I actually came to this site after watching a bunch of videos on the processes, and this site is the best place to fill in the missing parts.

So basically, as soon as I get a bubbler, instead of using these small mason jars, I could put my 3+ lbs of pins into a 5 gallon bucket, along with 3 gallons of HCL or so, and a very small amount of peroxide to get the process started, turn the bubbler on, and just let it go, checking on it every couple days and turning it off periodically when I need to. Then once everything looks to be dissolved, filter it, check the solution with stannous, and start the disposal process, or recharge the used AP and move on from there.

I wasn't planning on making an abundance of solution because of pets and my nieces, but if I can find a good place to set the bucket so they won't be able to get into it, I'll definately be doing that because, I do have quite a bit of material to process.

The cheapest bubbler I've seen at the pet store was $30, that's why I haven't bought 1 yet.

Shaking acids, in a literal sense, is probably not the safest of things to do. I will assume he meant sloshing or swirling, while his main focus was on its ineffectivity.

Yes, it wasn't working. I was tightening the lid, and moving the mason jar up and down, in circles etc, (gently) for 30 seconds or so a couple times per day and/or using a long plastic spoon to mix around the pins. So, it would be more sloshing it around than actually shaking it because the metal pins in the jar could end up breaking the glass, which would most likely get me covered in acid and that definately wouldn't be fun.

In my opinion, an air supply is a must for AP to work correctly. I have tried it without one and hated it, it took what seemed like forever. A simple air pump for a fish aquarium can be bought at Walmart for around $7 and a double a pump for around $12. That is pretty cheap for a tool to recover your gold. It will also greatly speed up the time it takes to recover it. Do your self a real favor and get an air pump, you won't regret it for the cost.

This is great news, that's a much better price than the pet store. The Walmart near me doesn't have an aquarium section for some odd reason but, I forgot that the other 1 a couple towns over does, so Ill be heading that way very soon.

 

[Shark]

Fish Aquarium supplies can be found in the dog and cat food section at our local Walmart. It may be different there, but might save you a trip.

 

[Grelko]

Fish Aquarium supplies can be found in the dog and cat food section at our local Walmart. It may be different there, but might save you a trip.

I ran up to Walmart earlier today and found 1, you were right, it was near the dog/cat food. I bought the Aqua Culture ( 5-15 gallon, single outlet air pump) and an 8 foot hose for it. It was under $7, and under $2 for the piece of hose. Comes with a check valve to stop backflow. I can't turn it up or down, so it's either on or off depending if it's plugged in or not.

I read that another person on here had sealed the end of the hose and poked holes into it with a heated pin, instead of using a rock bubbler, because certain types of plastic can dissolve, so I might try this type of setup.

Thanks for all the help guys, now all I need to do, is find time to get this up and running.

 

[Grelko]

I'm checking to make sure that I am doing this correctly.


I made a 4 gallon bucket setup with a bubbler.

I mixed approximately 1 gallon of water and 1.5 gallons of HCL, put in close to 3.5 lbs of partially gold plated pins "which includes the original 3 oz of full plated ones". Yes, I know I should have seperated the pins instead of dumping them all in at once.

Edit - All of the pins that I used were slightly magnetic

This most likely isn't going to be enough solution to dissolve all of the material, but I can always more when I need to.

I drilled a small hole near the very top of the bucket for the hose to go through, and have the hose running through a small heavier piece of plastic drain pipe to keep it near the bottom of the bucket. I've attached the pump to the wall about 4 feet above it. I also have a piece of plywood covering the bucket with a brick to hold it down and keep out the rain.

(I'll see if I can get some pictures uploaded within the next few days)

The used solution from the fully plated pins was added to the bucket as well. I may have had a piece of aluminum or zinc among the pins because there was a small piece floating around the bucket fizzing for a minute.

The solution was a bit cloudy when I first mixed it together, which could have been from the original solution, or the water, or even if the pins had dirt on them.

About an hour later, the solution was mostly clear with a very light green color to it.

I turned off the pump after close to 6 hours, and will be turning it on again in the morning.

 

[Geo]

Sounds good so far but unless there are safety concerns, the pump should be running night and day.

 

[bswartzwelder]

I agree the pump should be running 24/7. Whether this is possible or not is a decision you will have to make. I run my setup outside even in bad weather. To do this, I invert a 5 gallon bucket and place a 12 inch square paver stone on top of it so that one edge of the paver stone is just slightly over the edge of the bucket. The paver stone is not centered over the bucket doing it this way. Next, I set a brick near the center of the bucket. Then, I set the air pump and the end of the extension cord powering it on the brick with both of the air pump hoses and the extension cord running over the edge of the paver stone closest to the bucket edge. Now, I place the inverted bucket over the pump and extension cord and put a nice heavy brick on it the hold it down in case is gets windy.

The inverted bucket rests on top of everything so that there is a slight gap where the hoses and cord exit over the paver stone. With the setup like this, even if it pours down raining, the extension cord end with the pump plugged into it is above the level of the pave sitting nicely on top of the brick. The brick on the paver keeps the most important items dry. It also lifts the pump up above the level of the bucket with the AP in it. In case of a power failure, it is possible the AP solution to siphon back out of the AP bucket. I can safely guarantee it will destroy the check valves inside the air pump if it reaches them. This keeps everything safe and allows operation 24/7.

 

[Grelko]

I've finally been able to take a couple pictures of my setup. I hope that they came out correctly and aren't too large or upsidedown. (of course they came out upsidedown, and in reverse order). First time posting pictures on here.

It's been around 10 days so far, and the solution isn't becoming any more green than it did the first day. Is this because it is approximately 60/40 acid/water? There are flakes floating around when I stir it. As I was saying before this consists of around 1 gallon of water and 1.5 gallons of HCL, then I put in close to 3.5 lbs of partially gold plated pins.

I'm not entirely sure if I should decant and filter, then add more HCL to the bucket or wait until all of the pins are completely dissolved first.

I don't have much room, so I have this setup right behind the garage.

 

[Geo]

If you have any, add some more copper(II) chloride. If not, add a cup full of 3% H2O2. That solution does not have enough copper in solution to make a good etchant. This is not my photo. I pulled it from the internet but it is copper(II) chloride and shows what it should look like.

 

[Grelko]

I wondered if that may have been the problem also, but I figured it was just taking longer to turn green because there was so much more material to dissolve.

I added right around a cup of peroxide to the solution and immediately it turned a darker green/yellow color. Looks like it's working properly now, thank you.

 

[g_axelsson]

When running pins in copper chloride the zinc can cement out the copper and make it a zinc chloride solution and that's not working. If you have enough copper chloride or oxidizer from the start it won't be any problem, but without that it can take some time for a new batch to start working.
This isn't the same problem when running fingers, as circuit board traces are made from pure copper.

Göran