:roll: Is possible that the gold dissolved by HCl and bleach can cement back upon the surface of platinum grains to appear is if it is all gold? I have 200 mils of this powder that refuses to dissolve into cold aqua regia giving me both cobalt and palladium. Continued with HCl and bleach while stirring seemed to work, but after sitting for a day, all cinnamon powder remains. Am I fooling myself? Is this powder ready for me to hire an oxy-acetylene torch? Here in the Philippines nitric acid is almost unattainable, costing 20 times normal on the black market. If I had it I would use hot aqua regia. The cinnamon brown powder is identical to the slush when using oxalic acid to drop gold (as seen in the youtube photos). I have a mini-torch but no ceramic insulation. Someone with experience in gold powder as a cinnamon brown mass (yellow particles) please help by commenting. Oh, the aqua regia that I used first was just a small sample. I have no more nitric acid.
cinnamon brown powder
- Thread starter Professor
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Can you post some good pictures and describe exactly what you have done from the start including your source material and why you suspect PGMs.
frank-20011
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Hello,
and nitrates are unavailable too?
KNO3 isn't a must, maybe NH4NO3 (available as coolpacks at our place) or Ca(NO3)2, Mg(NO3)2 the last both are out of the question for a use in explosives so they are easier to get.
Regards.
and nitrates are unavailable too?
KNO3 isn't a must, maybe NH4NO3 (available as coolpacks at our place) or Ca(NO3)2, Mg(NO3)2 the last both are out of the question for a use in explosives so they are easier to get.
Regards.
The raw material is a booby-trapped gold looking powder from the Japanese army in the 1940's. Precious metals precipitated from a solution with a non-radioactive cobalt powder. The cobalt reacts with the oxygen in the atmosphere to produce cobalt oxide, an invisible, odorless, deadly irritant gas. It is very similar to osmium oxide except for it has no smell. The cobalt is removed by sulfuric acid dilution with hydrogen peroxide added. It explodes peroxides when alone. What is left is confirmed by a lead cupel as platinum, gold and palladium. This substance is extremely difficult to process so I work from the powder instead. I had about 150 mils of 50/50 diluted nitric acid which had no effect upon it at all hot or cold. I added hydrochloric acid to make aqua regia and this had some effect but when the solution was analysed only cobalt was in it. The bulk of the powder remained unchanged.
Using bleach stirred into HCl acid caused some light yellow solution that just got palladium and no gold or platinum. Again the bulk of the powder (4 ounces) still remained unchanged.
I don't have a lab and I can't use AA or something to verify these things. The cobalt oxide gas nearly killed me until I got smart about it. I can't take a photo but the youtube photo of the cinnamon brown obtained from the reduction of chloroauric acid with sodium oxalate matches it perfectly. I have about a kilo of this powder left yet to process. That is once I can successfully process this small amount first. As to nitrates, non are available outside of fireworks or tobacco cigarettes. Possibly the blue cold pack might be available. I will check for it. Please, put your heads together and see if someone can guess what is happening here.
Using bleach stirred into HCl acid caused some light yellow solution that just got palladium and no gold or platinum. Again the bulk of the powder (4 ounces) still remained unchanged.
I don't have a lab and I can't use AA or something to verify these things. The cobalt oxide gas nearly killed me until I got smart about it. I can't take a photo but the youtube photo of the cinnamon brown obtained from the reduction of chloroauric acid with sodium oxalate matches it perfectly. I have about a kilo of this powder left yet to process. That is once I can successfully process this small amount first. As to nitrates, non are available outside of fireworks or tobacco cigarettes. Possibly the blue cold pack might be available. I will check for it. Please, put your heads together and see if someone can guess what is happening here.
This sounds too strange to be true... there is some discrepancies in this.
For example cobalt oxide comes in three different versions depending on oxidation state but two have melting points at 1400 C and the third one close to 900 C. Whenever you run into cobalt oxide gas the cobalt is the least of your concern.
This story reminds me a lot of another thread a couple of years ago, the same background, something the Japanese left behind after the war and it should have a lot of gold in it.
And if you have nitric acid to make aqua regia, why would you need nitrates then?
Göran
For example cobalt oxide comes in three different versions depending on oxidation state but two have melting points at 1400 C and the third one close to 900 C. Whenever you run into cobalt oxide gas the cobalt is the least of your concern.
This story reminds me a lot of another thread a couple of years ago, the same background, something the Japanese left behind after the war and it should have a lot of gold in it.
And if you have nitric acid to make aqua regia, why would you need nitrates then?
Göran
Göran I was going to suggest he send a PM to Dr. Indiana Jones. But after noticing some of those discrepancies like analyzing his solution to find cobalt without access to a lab or atomic analysis. Then being unable to have access to any nitrates or the nitric acid used to make the AR he mentioned he made.
Then saw the April 1st date on the first post... :roll:
Then saw the April 1st date on the first post... :roll:
Sorry, but you are sorely mistaken. Cobalt got it's name from nickel miners as a short name to "Hobgoblin demon" . It reacts to oxygen and explodes to sodium peroxide. Maybe you are thinking of a different valence. This cobalt is a deadly, invisible and odorless gas when in contact with air. Attached to a catalyst like platinum makes it worse. It has killed several animals including rats and it will seem to be invisible mosquitoes on your ankles as it bites you. You need to do more research, In the meantime you haven't helped me with my problem.
Please do forgive my brash and inconsiderate post, sir. Surely you can understand the cinicism as this is something far from ordinary.
Perhaps you could explain how you came in possession of such a substance and especially the history of it. If sincere as you seem this could become one of the most interesting threads I've yet to read.
Perhaps you could explain how you came in possession of such a substance and especially the history of it. If sincere as you seem this could become one of the most interesting threads I've yet to read.
A 100 kilo ball of this booby trapped substance was unearthed (buried 6 feet down). Normally a WW11 Japanese treasure is booby trapped by a deadly coating of thallium. Everyone know that when a precious metal is alloyed with small amounts of a base metal that a galvanic cell is created that causes the base metal to oxidize rapidly. Cobalt monoxide has a high boiling point, but like water has a low vapor point and so can evaporate, saturating the nearby atmosphere with itself. A little bit of cobalt will make platinum magnetic but will it do that also to a gold/cobalt alloy? I don't have a proper lab so everything is done the very old fashioned way by chemical analysis. It seems now that the Japanese also had trouble finding nitric acid and the original solution was made by stirring bleach into ore saturated with hydrochloric acid. At this point it seems that the platinum is minimal but the palladium and gold seem to be the max. Please remember my original dilemma; "Can gold solution cement upon platinum grains making the whole seem like gold?"" Switch that now from platinum to palladium in the question. I am low on funds and I don't want to invest in a metal shop if this powder is too difficult to melt. Is there no one in the forum that has any experience with this cinnamon (yellow) brown inert powder? I hope so!Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
Professor said:
Can you post a picture of what the powder looks like?
No, gold doesn't cement back on platinum grains.
Göran
Göran
upcyclist
Well-known member
I suspect gold, platinum, palladium, and any other PGM are all too close to each other in the reactivity series to cement on one another.
But are you even asking the correct question? Are you wondering which of these could cement on the other, or are you just wondering if they all could all cement out together on copper (or another more reactive metal)? The answer to the latter question is yes.
But are you even asking the correct question? Are you wondering which of these could cement on the other, or are you just wondering if they all could all cement out together on copper (or another more reactive metal)? The answer to the latter question is yes.
Even if gold would cement out on palladium it won't happen if you have enough acids. Palladium dissolves in both nitric acid and aqua regia as fast or even faster than gold.
This is basic knowledge, when a metal cements onto a second metal, the second metal is oxidized and goes into solution or is turned into an insoluble salt of that metal. In any case it consumes the second metal and when it's gone no more cementing will happen.
In the case of platinum, if it would cement gold it would dissolve the platinum at the same time. Platinum is really hard to dissolve and if it would cement gold from solution that would be a really easy way to dissolve platinum.
In one of the procedures Hoke describes platinum and gold is separated by cold aqua regia. It dissolves gold but not platinum and the gold could be filtered off. It takes boiling aqua regia to dissolve massive platinum in any significant way.
That is how I know that platinum doesn't cement gold from solution.
Professor, you are only looking for an answer that confirms your preconception instead of trying to find out what you have.
If the brown powder can't be dissolved by aqua regia then it isn't gold. To be sure there are no organic substances you should incinerate the powder first. There are numerous brown powders that could resist aqua regia and not containing any gold at all. Color and consistency is a bad way to trying to analyze chemicals... it's what they did in medieval times.
Göran
This is basic knowledge, when a metal cements onto a second metal, the second metal is oxidized and goes into solution or is turned into an insoluble salt of that metal. In any case it consumes the second metal and when it's gone no more cementing will happen.
In the case of platinum, if it would cement gold it would dissolve the platinum at the same time. Platinum is really hard to dissolve and if it would cement gold from solution that would be a really easy way to dissolve platinum.
In one of the procedures Hoke describes platinum and gold is separated by cold aqua regia. It dissolves gold but not platinum and the gold could be filtered off. It takes boiling aqua regia to dissolve massive platinum in any significant way.
That is how I know that platinum doesn't cement gold from solution.
Professor, you are only looking for an answer that confirms your preconception instead of trying to find out what you have.
If the brown powder can't be dissolved by aqua regia then it isn't gold. To be sure there are no organic substances you should incinerate the powder first. There are numerous brown powders that could resist aqua regia and not containing any gold at all. Color and consistency is a bad way to trying to analyze chemicals... it's what they did in medieval times.
Göran
Wait, if this is for real, he mentioned cobalt. If it is some booby trapped Japanese treasure he could have some deadly gasses to worry about if heated. Not from the cobalt oxide gas he mentioned, but from the arsonic in cobalt ore. That would be my guess as far as a "booby trap".
What happened to the other 99 kilos that were dug up? How was it processed?
What happened to the other 99 kilos that were dug up? How was it processed?
Now I'm very curious. No access to a lab, nitric acid, nitrates of any kind, no camera, no stannous chloride, etc. Yet you have dissolved and precipitated a mysterious gold powder that wouldn't even dissolve in AR. Now you are ready to melt. Did I miss anything?
Oh yeah, all while battling a deadly, invisible, odorless cobalt gas. I have to ask, if you are willing to share it with us, since no known process seemed to work, how were you able to do it?
Oh yeah, all while battling a deadly, invisible, odorless cobalt gas. I have to ask, if you are willing to share it with us, since no known process seemed to work, how were you able to do it?
Yes, you seem to have missed quite a lot. First gold will not dissolve in the presence of a baser metal. Everyone knows that. One doesn't need a laboratory to utilize plain, old fashioned chemistry. No at first the gold refused to dissolve into aqua regia, yet something did! After many tests it became known as cobalt, then later palladium. Yes, just plain old fashion chemistry where one needs to do multiple tests to analyze the results. OK, so I worked with this stuff for over a year. The cobalt chloride in the room was vaporizing and killing most everything that utilized lungs to breathe. When I attempted to fire it myself, it nearly killed me as I broke out with blisters inside and out. No it wasn't arsenic or antimony. It seems that few have the experience of working with pure cobalt powder or it's chlorides. Cobalt did get it's name from the disastrous effects that it had upon the original miners and refiners. Look it up, the history of cobalt. Be careful as it's a mean one. It's even meaner than osmium tetroxide as it has no odor. There is no doubt in my mind that the gold was booby trapped. :!:
richard2013
Well-known member
Professor,
If your are near my location and need nitric acid i can help you, though am not using these because am still not set up to use this.
I can lead you to the supplier price is around 10$ per kilogram with minimum 22kilos I think in a 5 gallon standard nitric Jar.
Question:
Since you said your are using old fashioned way by chemical analysis, what chemicals are they?
If your are near my location and need nitric acid i can help you, though am not using these because am still not set up to use this.
I can lead you to the supplier price is around 10$ per kilogram with minimum 22kilos I think in a 5 gallon standard nitric Jar.
Question:
Since you said your are using old fashioned way by chemical analysis, what chemicals are they?
