cinnamon brown powder

[nickvc]

Professor I suspect that you think you know more than you do about the refining and recovery of precious metals and snapping at other members of the forum will gain you no friends but a possible ban from the forum.
You are quite wrong when you say gold will not dissolve in the presence of base metals, it will readily dissolve but will then cement back out as the acid consumes the base metals until all base metals are consumed then you will have the gold go into solution, if as you say you are using chemistry to determine what you have then making stannous is surely easy, it's a lot easier than dissolving whatever it is you have, and will tell you whether you have any gold there or not.
I suspect that what you have is nothing more than gold bearing ore which has arsenic mixed in with all the other elements and if that is the case I am not suprised you have had some very nasty experiences trying to either melt or dissolve it, it is the toxic element that gave cobalt its reputation back in the 1700s.
My advice is to leave it well alone or get a proper assay done before you kill yourself and possibly your family and neighbours, you cannot by pure chemistry alone determine what you have especially without the right chemicals or equipment.
To be blunt most gold ore runs at around 1/2 to 5 ounces a ton, most at the lower number, that means if you have 100 kilos you may have between 1.5-15 grams of gold and your risking your health and life to try and recover that, I suspect someone is not telling you the truth as to its origin but simply using you to try to discover whether there is gold there or not without paying for a decent assay.
Even if you do recover the gold is it worth the cost to your health, will you want to expose yourself to the arsenic fumes continuously until it kills you!

 

[butcher]

Professor,
Pay attention to the wisdom of nickvc.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Professor,
Pay attention to the wisdom of nickvc.

+1 on that

Everyone has been very accommodating on this thread and has taken a serious viewpoint of something that, well...just smells kind of fishy.. And the if-so fact-o approach taken in reply to the help, seems to be reminiscent of another good "dr" no longer with us.

Id love to see pictures.

The actual material pictures.

It would be very valuable to us on the forum, for those who are learning, and for the members who are able to lend a guiding hand.

You most certainly need to make stannous though. How can anyone know what they have without a way to test it?

There are 2 books by CM Hoke. Both available on this forum, freely.
Refining precious metals and testing precious metals. They are an indispensable tool kit for any refiner, very much like HCl...HNO3...SnCl...and much..much more.

 

[UncleBenBen]

Nick, in all fairness, I was 'poking the bear' a bit and brought the snappiness on myself. I can't really blame him for that. Yet as unbelievable as the whole story seemed, I really was kind of rooting for it to be true. Y'all already know I can spit out some pretty far fetched stories, but I stand behind every thing I say 100%.

Even though the professor hasn't quite backed up his story yet, maybe he will, I am glad he posted it no matter the reason. It led me into some study of cobalt's colorful history that I most likely never would have done were it not for this thread. For that I have to say thank you, professor.

 

[Professor]

It's quite a common mistake for some to think that it is the arsenic found with cobalt that is the offending chemical. There is no arsenic or antimony in this booby trapped precipitate.
My name should tell you that I am not uneducated, Nickv, you would get a C- if I were grading your paper. I'm not trying to be rude. I am saying that you haven't researched as much as you expect us to believe. Yes, gold dissolves with base metals and immediately cements back onto them. This is what I meant when I said that it doesn't dissolve; and why. Also why do you feel the need to threaten me with a loss of friends or with banishment from the forum? I have not been disrespectful to anyone. I do appreciate the ones that did the research on wither or not cold HCl acid and bleach containing HAuCl4 would cement upon the surface of platinum grains. As it turned out, the platinum was actually palladium and now the problem has been solved. As to the odorless, colorless cobalt monoxide gas, I remove it with peroxides and dilute sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid because hydrochloric acid makes cobalt chloride which is just as deadly as it evaporates. The sulfate is harmless when exposed to the air. Thanks again for your input guys. I am extremely educated yet have less experience than some of you.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

So the gold was cementing back on Pd?...

Pd is usually very quick to go into solution, whether nitric or ar, or hcl clorox.

And, if you go by my name...i, sir, am a dinosaur.

So, you must forgive my hardheadedness

 

[g_axelsson]

Still more inconsistency...

Cobalt monoxide is not a gas at normal room conditions, not even at gold melting temperatures, it melts at 1933 C and the boiling point is still higher. Cobalt monoxide is the coloring agent in cobalt blue glass and quite stable.

So now you are claiming that you have dissolved gold but failed to dissolve palladium? Just add some more acid and the palladium would dissolve together with the gold without a problem... a hint, that's common knowledge among all us uneducated poor saps on the forum.

Professor, your title is worth as much as the digital paper it's written on... you don't seem the least educated to me. Contrary, I'm starting to suspect that you are a lone kid just trolling for attention, based on your writing.
I think it's a higher probability that Topher_osAUrus is a dinosaur than you are a professor.

Göran

 

[UncleBenBen]

Professor, every 10 year old on the planet in even the poorest of places has a camera phone. Whether in the Philippines as you say in this thread, or in the USA as it says in your profile, there has to be someone that can post pictures and at least try to prove your case.

I will be surprised if we see that proof. As has been pointed out many times now, there are just too many inconsistencies and contradictions in your story. I think Topher might be on to something with the good Dr. thing. Although Göran probably nailed it with his last post.

I hope you saved the cobalt oxide. It's selling at up to $100 USD a kilo from online ceramics suppliers...

And yes, I really am an uncle!

 

[Professor]

:!:

Still more inconsistency...

Cobalt monoxide is not a gas at normal room conditions, not even at gold melting temperatures, it melts at 1933 C and the boiling point is still higher. Cobalt monoxide is the coloring agent in cobalt blue glass and quite stable.

So now you are claiming that you have dissolved gold but failed to dissolve palladium? Just add some more acid and the palladium would dissolve together with the gold without a problem... a hint, that's common knowledge among all us uneducated poor saps on the forum.

Professor, your title is worth as much as the digital paper it's written on... you don't seem the least educated to me. Contrary, I'm starting to suspect that you are a lone kid just trolling for attention, based on your writing.
I think it's a higher probability that Topher_osAUrus is a dinosaur than you are a professor.

Göran

I was told that such abusive language was forbidden on this forum. When gold is cemented back onto undissolved palladium, it must dissolve again and again until all of the baser palladium has been dissolved. Only then can the gold remain in the solution as an ion. If you read some old messages from me you will notice that I did get some small amount of gold to precipitate with ferrous sulfate. this means to me that the palladium was finally all dissolved and only gold (and possibly platinum) was left. I know that sarcasm is just a trait of some people. Please try to be nice sir. On another note; finely divided pure cobalt is extremely reactive to oxygen. It is so reactive that sodium peroxide will cause it to explode. Oxygen from the atmosphere will also react with it with so much energy that the individual particles will heat up higher than it's boiling point. Still as I told you before, it's not the boiling temperature but the vapor pressure that forms the gas. Now please. I asked for help here to find someone with more experience, not a heckler.

 

[Professor]

Here is something for Harold: Bromine is easily obtained from a saturated solution of sea salt that is again saturated with chlorine gas. Bromine is precipitated as a liquid on the bottom. I hope this is helpful sir.

 

[g_axelsson]

Professor, as I have pointed out several times, cobalt oxide is not volatile at normal processing temperatures and hardly even at the melting point of gold either. It is not advisable to breath the fumes given off from a melt in any case.

Every substance has a vapor pressure that is depending on the temperature, but cobalt oxide is as far as I know (I've done searches and found nothing contradictory) practically zero at normal room temperature. But there are some references I can't reach since they sits behind paywalls.
As you have noticed, the metal cobalt is quite reactive with oxygen and is easily oxidized, but if the "booby trap" was cobalt powder then it should have been oxidized quite easily since the second world war. Even if burning cobalt powder could create cobalt oxide vapor if should have cooled down and condensed by now.

We have already had a "doctor" here on the forum that turned out to be a fake. So just claiming a title without any proof isn't flying here. Your denial of proof doesn't speak in your behalf either. That's the basis of my assessment on what type of person you are.

I'm one of the moderators that is put in place on this forum and I might get a bit temperamental when it comes to protecting the scientific basis this forum. If I have used abusive language I hope one of the other moderators will tell me, and in public.

So, professor. If you want to retain even the slightest of credibility I suggest you start by providing some kind of proof and references. For example a number of the vapor pressure of cobalt oxide.
Some references to publicized articles would also be a good reference. And if you don't want to go public with your name you could send it as a PM to me or some other moderator.

Göran

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Here is something for Harold: Bromine is easily obtained from a saturated solution of sea salt that is again saturated with chlorine gas. Bromine is precipitated as a liquid on the bottom. I hope this is helpful sir.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

I read the thread again.

And i just couldnt find the relevance for this?...

Or anything based as pertinent to the story, which has had the goalposts moved a few times...

Clarify this?
Initially this mystery material was ppt from solution with cobalt, why did the Co not all go into solution when it was dropping everything below it out?.... Where you said you csnt get nitric, but had it initially and tried cold and hot, why didnt you heat the ar? How do you know, back in WWII that they use Co to ppt? Conjecture? The japanese couldnt get nitric acid in WWII?.. Anyone and everyone can make nitric, with nothing but nature and their own urine... So, i dont think they were THAT behind the times.. You then used hcl and bleach to dissolve it?

What happened to the ar, that had 150 ml of nitric (enough to dissolve a GREAT deal of pms)? why did you speculate that only cobalt was pulled into the ar solution? How did you test?
Why did you say everything with lungs was dying? But, you are still here to troll...i mean type?

Again, hard headed dinosaur, so, can you elaborate on why this is pertinent?...(the bromine quote from harold you have no doubt posted as a distraction from the previous questions posed by other members...
....explain it so I, a simpleton, can grasp the concepts?
Like Goran, i believe this should be a place of science, not speculation and conjecture and ridiculous attempts to one-up everyone that tries to help you

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Topher, the reference to Harold and bromine has to do with a different thread where someone asked about Harold's experience extracting gold from an ore where he used bromine in his leach..

Dave

 

[UncleBenBen]

I think I have figured it out. All the confusion has to do with a note keeping error, or perhaps a sticky caps lock key.

I was thinking that the formula for cobalt chloride, CoCl₂, looks very similar to the formula for carbonyl dichloride, COCl₂.

Carbonyl dichloride, AKA phosgene, IS a deadly gas that killed tens of thousands of men in trenches of WWI. The Japanese were known to be using it in the years leading up to WWII...

Rig the gold powder to produce COCl₂ when acid is added and there you go. Booby trapped gold.

Of course that doesn't explain the insoluble gold powder and all the rest. Especially the bromine! :mrgreen:

 

[upcyclist]

I think I have figured it out. All the confusion has to do with a note keeping error, or perhaps a sticky caps lock key.

I was thinking that the formula for cobalt chloride, CoCl₂, looks very similar to the formula for carbonyl dichloride, COCl₂.

Carbonyl dichloride, AKA phosgene, IS a deadly gas that killed tens of thousands of men in trenches of WWI. The Japanese were known to be using it in the years leading up to WWII...

Rig the gold powder to produce COCl₂ when acid is added and there you go. Booby trapped gold.

Of course that doesn't explain the insoluble gold powder and all the rest. Especially the bromine! :mrgreen:

You, sir, are a genius--I think you may have just nailed it. Can we call you ProfessorBenBen?

Now, to "the professor": I might believe you are a doctor, and I'm not really that troubled by if you are or not. I do not, however, believe you are a PhD in a hard science. Most of the people here wouldn't care if you have a PhD in every Liberal Art known to man. A lot of them don't even care if you have a PhD in chemistry! But if you did have a PhD in chemistry, you'd know about the Scientific Method, of which one of the crucial steps is "test your hypothesis." Also, if you were, you probably wouldn't spend that long mixing the words platinum and palladium. That doesn't mean you're not a doctor, but it does mean you're not a doctor in a field relevant to refining.

In the end, that is neither here nor there--because in the real world of refining, practical experience carries much more weight than book knowledge. Among our most experienced contributors, very few have a advanced degree in chemistry, and many don't even have any college degree. Insisting on our respect because you say you are highly educated might not bother some, or it might irritate others (who then won't help you). But hubris may just get you killed or seriously injured.

It's also possible we have a translation problem, which happens here--this board attracts people from all over the world. Your native language appears to be something other than English. So, you may not intend to be rude even if I think your words come off that way. Conversely, I don't see what others are saying to you as rude, but you may feel differently.

I try not to get all riled up, because that just makes me more apt to make some error, and I'm not at all experienced here to begin with. But I will say this: A haughty attitude will get you nowhere on this board. It might get you hurt. Or it might just get you ignored. But if you want to learn here, neither of those outcomes will do you any good.

 

[UncleBenBen]

You, sir, are a genius

Hahaaa! Thanks but far from it!!! :lol:

Can we call you ProfessorBenBen?

I've been called much worse! :lol: 8)
Just don't call me late for dinner!

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Topher, the reference to Harold and bromine has to do with a different thread where someone asked about Harold's experience extracting gold from an ore where he used bromine in his leach..

Dave

Thank you dave, i was wondering where all that came in to play.

Thought i missed a page, or ten, of this thread somewhere

 

[nickvc]

As several members have said some proof of the material would go a long way to stop the scepticism.
So far we have nothing to advise on but your opinions and observations, right or wrong, if you actually want help give more information or pictures, if this is not forthcoming my personal view will be to skip this thread and I feel the rest of the members are getting very close to the same point.
The choice is now yours provide proof or pictures and help will be there, keep up the same rubbish and then you may well be alone.
As one member said we all hope what you have is really good but stop playing games and pretending you know better than some of the finest minds on the planet when it comes to recovery and refining.

 

[Professor]

I was hoping to read from someone with more experience than me concerning what was once a problem. It's not a problem anymore. Also I failed to read from someone with more experience. Oh, well; it was worth a shot anyway. Thank you all for the advice and sarcasm. This thread is finished now. I will now attempt to help someone else that's needs some advice. FYI; there is a vast difference between experience and knowledge acquired by 'Googling' a subject. I will go on to another subject and forsake this "cinnamon Brown Powder' thread now. I feel that I owe it to the forum to help someone else.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

I was hoping to read from someone with more experience than me concerning what was once a problem. It's not a problem anymore. Also I failed to read from someone with more experience. Oh, well; it was worth a shot anyway. Thank you all for the advice and sarcasm. This thread is finished now. I will now attempt to help someone else that's needs some advice. FYI; there is a vast difference between experience and knowledge acquired by 'Googling' a subject. I will go on to another subject and forsake this "cinnamon Brown Powder' thread now. I feel that I owe it to the forum to help someone else.

More experience compared to what, or whom?

And how did you solve this problem exactly?

Id still LOVE to see pics, So whenever im looking for relics of a time since passed, i can be sure to not kill myself with cobalt, or let me gold cement onto Pd.