Fukushima? comments! facts! myths!

[jason_recliner]

Peer revew? I'm up for that. Sure Göran. Come! Observe and measure them yourself! Because Science!
I'd have to check with my sister - but I can't see why a girl in Australia would have a problem with some random dude from Sweden knocking on the door to size up her darlings. They are observable, measurable and let me absolutely assure you, very, very audible. (bring your earmuffs)
If you don't wish to take my word for their age, by all means cut one of their arms off and count the rings. But I should probably warn you that "Dad" was once a member of Victoria Police and still keeps a .38". :lol:

Jason

 

[g_axelsson]

The perils of modern science... :lol:

I think I would try to use more non contact measurements rather than cutting off arms. After all, you don't want to disturb the subject too much.

I would like to go back and visit Australia more times. I spent a month in the Perth-area when a friend got married, later I spent a week in Calgorlie to search for gold. Didn't find any, only a bunch of old led bullets and traces from the gold rush. But I looked down in the super pit during blasting and partied with the miners in the evening...

Keep cool mate!

Göran

 

[Claudie]

There is evidence all around us that points to a much younger Earth then the scientific theories suggest. When evidence like this is presented that doesn't fit in with the theory, it is pushed aside. That is not basing anything on facts, that is basically lying to further an agenda.

Here is just one of many examples:
Carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) is a radioactive form of carbon that scientists use to date fossils. But it decays quickly.
Carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) is a radioactive form of carbon that scientists use to date fossils. But it decays so quickly—with a half-life of only 5,730 years—that none is expected to remain in fossils after only a few hundred thousand years. Yet carbon-14 has been detected in “ancient” fossils—supposedly up to hundreds of millions of years old—ever since the earliest days of radiocarbon dating.
Source: https://answersingenesis.org/geology/carbon-14/7-carbon-14-in-fossils-coal-and-diamonds/

 

[4metals]

Your reference is from Answering Genesis, yeah they have no agenda!

 

[solar_plasma]

Claudie, you know the year rings of trees, right? It's this summer-winter-thing. Quite the same works with ice. I think the oldest ice core layers are about 850000 years old. The same with sediment cores.

Then you have:
uranium-lead dating for samples older than 1 million years up to over 4,5 billion year, accuracy 0,1-1%
uranium-thorium dating for samples from few years to over 500 000 000 years
potassium-argon dating
argon-argon dating

methods I never heard of before like electron spin resonance dating...sounds like speed dating in a hospital :lol: or luminescence dating (=kind of candlelight dinner?)

many more I never heard of, but make sense, when reading about them..

Many of them you could use to cross check your tests. Then you can cross check plausibility with other scientific disciplines: A rock must do what a rock must do.

Take it as a man, your and my grand-grand-period-grandma is one and the same bacteria living 3000m under sea near a nice warm black smoker. Her great-period-great granddaughter about a billion years later, 200 million years ago, lived in Ethiopia, was black and was the first **** sapiens. Later some **** sapiens, by the way, had children with some **** neanderthalensis people. This is written in our genes. Actually, I assumed this since I had a driving license and was able to study human behavior on the road.

 

[4metals]

The internet is a wonderful thing, (thank you Al Gore!) it opens us up to a world of different opinions about the same topic. The problem is anyone can post anything on the internet.

The Answering Genesis website which was referenced is a well written site but it is biased. Not to say we can't learn from that. I went to that site and read their opinions. I then looked up techniques they referenced and was careful not to visit sites set up to specifically disagree with answering genesis as they can be as biased in the other direction. Instead I went to the sites where the science and limitations of carbon 14 are discussed. It is easy to figure out that because of the half life decay of carbon 14 that carbon 14 analysis only is valid up to about 20,000 years so it is specifically not used on samples known to be older.

Read about carbon 14 analysis, why it works and what its limitations are. Be better informed when you go to a site with an agenda and you will come away with a different opinion. Then read about the other decay type dating methods used which can date materials millions to billions of years old.

 

[solar_plasma]

Nevertheless, it is impressive how close the genesis (and the foreign sources, it has been covered from) is to modern scientific view of the universe. Must have been quite a lot of light, when our universe wasn't larger than our solar system today! Well the days have been billions of years, but people living that time probably only could count to ten. Again an example for how far we can come only using our mind and imagination.

Without starting to discuss religion, it was one of the first early roots of the science we have today. Mankind developed from an animal to a human being, when he started trying to "perceive whatever holds // The world together in its inmost folds." (Goethe, Faust I) Maybe the forbidden fruit has been mankind's first empirical experiment and here we are, the only chronic dissatisfied animal, because we always need to know the "what, why and whereto".

 

[Geo]

Like I said before, probability. There's a big difference between possibility and probability. Is it possible that man walked with dinosaurs, sure, it's just not probable. If it was probable, we would find human skeletons with dinosaur skeletons. At least something that satisfies the rational that it is probable. Only faith lets people believe that it's possible and therefore probable. No one person can say with 100% certainty that they are right on either side simply because it is possible but not probable. Even science is based on faith. Science would have us believe that everything is made of tiny things that we can't see with our eyes. If I didn't believe in atoms, I would say, "show me or I can't believe". They can show me pictures, data, machines but they can't hold one up and say "here is an atom". I'm being asked to believe that that everything is made of tiny parts that can't be seen. I have to take it on "faith" that they are telling me the truth. With that being said, it is possible that everything is made of something else but not very probable. Most people feel that the most probable is the correct answer. Since no one is "all knowing" , it's the best we have. Just like everything else, humans will follow the path of least resistance. If we didn't, civilization wouldn't be possible. Look at the world as it is. The countries where people are split one from another, there is no civility. There has to be a common standard on which we base civilization which I believe is education. To standardize education, there must be a commonly accepted belief system much like religion. Education has schools and universities and so does religion. Neophytes and masters on both sides. There's a reason though that there was a separation of the two. Education welcomes experimentation and testing of theories. Heresy or blasphemy was punishable by death up to a couple hundred years ago. If we were keeping a score card of sorts, more people have died due to religious intolerance than have died of disease in the same time period. The crusades lasted for hundreds of years and some say it's still being fought today. In my opinion, and I know what it's worth, any religion that would ask it's faithful to kill or die may not have their best interest at heart.

 

[solar_plasma]

We can see the outer shape of gold atoms...at least Göran probably can with his electron microscope...everything inside the atom we have models about. A model is not made to show the reality. Even electron's behavior has nothing to do with the "reality" we know. Well, hey, something that can be here and there at the same time, not a wave, not a particle, but a bit of both? Something that can disappear here and without travelling through space, being another place at the same time? Models are made to make valid predictions possible. And every refiner can tell, those predictions are pretty exact. Proofs? - Just turn on the fluorescent tube! You got light? You just let some electrons do some funny things, that sound like science fiction.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok so given the choice between carbon dating being a few points incorrect, or the world being made 6500 years ago I know which donkey I'll pin my tail onto.

Then again maybe we were seeded here by aliens - and the whole world is some intergalactic reality show. It's as plausible as some of the whacko theories out there.

 

[solar_plasma]

Since we have most of our genes in common with any animal on earth (I think it was 80% with a worm, if I remember right), we must have been seeded a half or one billion years ago.

If it has been aliens though, is less probable than that we came as some advanced amino acid compounds in a primitive spacecraft (an asteroid).

But the most fantastic fact is, that each atom heavier than hydrogen we are made of has been built in stars and every atom heavier than iron even in giant collisions of super heavy stellar objects. Love it! We are stardust, born in light. 8) even the iron in our blood needed at least a collision of two neutron stars, - only a spoon full of neutron star weighs as much as a super tanker!

 

[Claudie]

Some people have been in a box for so long, they cannot know that there is anything other than the box.
If you are ever able to see a glimmer of light shinning through a crack in the box, I hope you will have the good sense to at least attempt to see the outside. I have a suspicion that, like so many others have done, you will tape that hole shut straight away so as not to have to admit to being mislead for so long.

 

[solar_plasma]

I can live with that, knowing a whole universe fits into my box. Outside this box, there exist no space and no time, but that only means I cannot imagine what is outside, nobody can think of anything that far of our normal reality. But I should wonder, if there wasn't something that just is not cognitively accessible to our conscious.

If we were allowed to talk beliefs, then I would say, that I think, what you call god is just so much bigger, than you in your box can imagine. I was grown up with fundamentalist christian influences, so you can say, what you want -I know, this statement you can't deny.

We should come back to something that fits better to the topic before we get in trouble with the mods. .....hey just think of how much gold there must be in space! :lol:

 

[Geo]

What crosses my mind is, what will happen when we find out that the galaxies are cells in a very large animal and we are a virus. As scientist peer deeper and deeper into the sub atomic universe, will they find the one that the sentient life forms there evolve and go extinct in the blink our eye. So tiny that their lifespan can't even be measured against anything we know.
Cut scene to outside our universe. The scientist are looking through their microscope at the powerful little swarm of sub-atomic particles and notice that one tiny blue dot seems to be contaminated with some form of biomass. Lets hope they decide to take a closer look instead of just sterilizing it and starting over.

 

[solar_plasma]

Now, that is scaring! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Some people have been in a box for so long, they cannot know that there is anything other than the box.
If you are ever able to see a glimmer of light shinning through a crack in the box, I hope you will have the good sense to at least attempt to see the outside. I have a suspicion that, like so many others have done, you will tape that hole shut straight away so as not to have to admit to being mislead for so long.

Actually Claudie I was in that box for many years. Then there was a glimmer of light shining through, and I attempted to see the outside and I liked it that much that I stayed outside.

You see- that analogy cuts both ways Sir. It can be applied evenly to purveyors of both philosophies. Strangely enough, usually only one part of the discussion is prepared to actually give it a go whilst very often the other side recommends that people do the very thing they would never ever do themselves.

Ahh I wax philosophical - please excuse my musing gentlemen.

 

[CBentre]

Awesome thread, glad to see all of you coming together on my time away. I'm a bit surprised no one brought up 3rd dimensions or intergalactic travel. Possible bases on the far side of the moon, and those pesky pyramids on Mars.
Yeah this is one of the best forums on the internet, keep up the good work.......im going now, don't no one throw a rock at me on my way out.

 

[Harold_V]

Some people have been in a box for so long, they cannot know that there is anything other than the box.
If you are ever able to see a glimmer of light shinning through a crack in the box, I hope you will have the good sense to at least attempt to see the outside. I have a suspicion that, like so many others have done, you will tape that hole shut straight away so as not to have to admit to being mislead for so long.

Claudie,
It takes guts beyond belief for you to post such a comment, especially when it describes you perfectly. You, sir, have taped over the tape on the cracks in the box, in an effort to avoid that which has been proven to be true, in favor of believing that which you wish to believe.

No, I'm not angry. I'm just bewildered.

Harold

 

[shaftsinkerawc]

Claudie, is there room in the box with you? Or are we supposed to stay in our own individual boxes?

I don't see where believing in a book written by fallible man is any different than believing long ages for the earth figured by a different fallible man are any different. They are both a belief system and therefore are both a religion.

 

[Harold_V]

They are both a belief system and therefore are both a religion.

NO, they are NOT both a religion. That statement is idiotic. Are you next going to tell me that Newton got it wrong?

Science bases opinions (I'll refrain from calling them facts) on observations, typically observations that are achieved through experiments, experiments that can be reproduced time and again, yielding the same results. To verify the veracity of information, the experiments are often conducted by other parties. We may err in interpreting the results, due in part to a lack of knowledge, but that in no way can be interpreted as a religion.

By contrast, religion is based on belief set forth by others, and there is nothing to substantiate any of it as being true. There are no "tests" that can be conducted to substantiate long held beliefs, which is certainly not to advantage. As an agnostic, I tell you in simple terms; show me proof and I'll become a believer. Otherwise, count me out, as it is clear (at least to me) how religion is used.

There's not one person on this board, or anywhere, for that matter, who can provide even a shred of evidence that there is a creator. It's all based on (ancient) belief, and faith. If there was, there wouldn't be countless numbers of religions, as we would all be on the same page. You may have noticed that we're not. Anyone can choose to believe exactly what they wish, but having a firm conviction doesn't make it true. Science, by contrast, can present evidence. It's not the least bit uncommon for those who refuse to accept the evidence do so because such evidence is in direct conflict with that which they choose to believe, therefore it is discredited. That's not science--it's witchcraft.

I am of the opinion that this thread is doing far more harm than it is good. It is displaying, for all to see, how stilted the thinking is of virtually all who have contributed (myself included), and will resolve none of the issues. Unless it takes a turn and becomes constructive, it's going to be locked, with the understanding that there will not be a similar discussion in the future, as it serves no purpose (after all---this board has a specific purpose---and this discussion isn't it).

To all concerned:
How do you want it? Do you want to stop posting on this subject, or should I close it so you can't? You can comply willingly, or not, but you will comply.

Harold