Hello, New here, think I made a mistake..

[kurtak]

I read hokes book, didn't find much that's too appealing,

And that seems to be the case with those here are the forum that have been trying to help you as well --- Sooooo - why don't you just stop wasting your time & our time & just get on with it & do it --- after all you are paying for the education that clearly puts you way ahead of us --- so put that education to work - get it done - stop asking questions about something you clearly already know everything about with your vast knowledge & education

Based on the title of this thread --- "Hello, New here, think I made a mistake" --- I would suggest that the next time that happens - go ask your Chem teachers - that's what you pay them for - you clearly don't like the answers you get here

I am done reading anything you post from now on - its a waste of my time & I certainly will not waste my time answering any questions you have - that would only result in you telling me how much more you know because you are going to school for chemistry

Edit; to say --- my point pu_239 is you are letting what you know get in the way of what you don't know - which in turn is wasting both your time & the time of those trying to help you :!: :!: :!:

Kurt

 

[pu_239]

I read all the replies, they where all good, I do appreciate them.

I take back "I read the book." I skimmed through it. School is pretty intense right now so don't have much time. Finals are in 2 weeks, had a test today, one next week, then 2 finals. Then I am out for winter break. I will read the book more carefully. I was just looking for the electro chemistry section in the book. I really didn't see much on it (unless I missed it).

I processed 2lbs of my batch today, 2lbs out of 10. I got some questions i had answered. Total time it took me was about 5hrs. i put the fingers in H2O2(Hydrogen peroxide) and HCl(Mauriatic Acid), I put it on a hot plate and warmed it up with a watch glass on top of it, to minimize evaporation. I had a thermometer in there too, I ran it in between 50-60 degree's Celsius(122-140 degree's Fahrenheit). I had a 50/50 mixture, total time on the hot plate was about 4hrs, the gold flakes came off the fingers.

This is what i started with(71g fingers)

Here was my set up.

This was about an hour in to it.

This is the finish product(before refining).

I don't have nitric acid to refine it. I am waiting on some sulfuric acid, I am going to use it to make my own nitric acid for the aqua regia. I am not sure what's up with my tin(II) chloride. It doesn't react with elemental gold does it? Just with AuCl4-? I put some on the vapor(the bottom of the watch glass that was on top of the beaker) to test, but I got a negative result. I put the Tin(II) Chloride on some actual gold and still tested negative. When we used it in lab it worked with ions. So I am assuming it doesn't react with elemental gold? Or did I make it wrong? I thought maybe it might do a redox reaction.

I had 10g of Tin(II)Chloride and I added 150ml. The directions said, for 2g of Tin(II) Chloride add 30mL of 32% HCl. I used the HCl from Ace, the one with the green label I believe. I see that's the one most people use, I thought i read some where it was 32%, so I really didn't look much in to it.

Either way it was fun. I liked it, I kind of see it as a part time job, but if you like what you're doing you're not really working. The worst part was just cutting the fingers off. I got a new pair of good tin snips, I had some older ones, that where small, but I bought the bigg scissor kind, those ones worked better. I take a slice out of my palm.

 

[jason_recliner]

I may not know the correct "chemisty" description, but the purpose of the stannous chloride is to precipitate gold out of solution as a colloid, which will be violet. It won't work on elemental gold metal or gold powder, no matter how fine, only on gold in solution that does not still have an overpowering oxidiser (excess nitric) that's keeping it dissolved, or redissolving it.

 

[jason_recliner]

Also, if you used 50/50 HCl and H2O2, that's way too much peroxide and you've probably dissolved a fair bit of your gold too. If you "stock pot" that green solution, you'll be able to recover it later. In fact, that green solution is perfect as it is for recovering your next batch of foils.

 

[solar_plasma]

Reread your school books about redox processes and then ask this question again, if stannous would react with Au⁰....holy...

 

[yar]

You do not need nitric to refine the foils. You can use HCL and Cl. Check out this linq by Lazersteve for the AP process. It should cover everything you need to know.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12914

If you use HCL/CL to refine your foils be careful to keep the Cl to a minimum. A capful at a time is recommended to dissolve the foils. Also be sure to allow the solution to gas off the Cl prior to precipitation or you will have problems getting all the gold to drop.

 

[pu_239]

Thanks jason and yar, I will reuse the CuCl2 solution, i just trimed 2 more lbs and put them in the solution. I will use less H2O2 when i make it again. I was wondering about the ICC on the boards. Should i process them myself or is it better to just sell them to boardsort.com? I was also curious how you would process ICC chips, can someone point me in the right direction?

@solar, I know how to figure it out, I just thought it was better if i asked.

ETA: Yar, that was a good link.

 

[richard2013]

use the search function for chips processing its all here.

 

[byte-tech]

Im a beginner myself so dont quote me but 50/50 seems too much. As for the ICs search for the patnor101 guide, he has a long thread about that.

Uresti.

 

[Anonymous]

The 50/50 mixture is way too much of a mixture. From the picture you showed, you only needed about one (1) cap full of peroxide. No more.

If you want proof you used too much peroxide?, simply take some of the gold flakes and put them in that solution and it will get dissolved into the solution. That's how you'll know you added too much peroxide. Heat or no heat will result in the same thing happening to the foils. They'll dissolve.


Kevin

 

[pu_239]

The 50/50 mixture is way too much of a mixture. From the picture you showed, you only needed about one (1) cap full of peroxide. No more.

If you want proof you used too much peroxide?, simply take some of the gold flakes and put them in that solution and it will get dissolved into the solution. That's how you'll know you added too much peroxide. Heat or no heat will result in the same thing happening to the foils. They'll dissolve.


Kevin

I do believe it. I read the post that one of the members above posted. I said, "it was good" or something along those lines. That post had a good tip. To process everything in the same container. I got a syringe(a big one) started to cyphen out the CuCl2 solution in to a erlenmeyer flask. I put it up to the sun and i see all these little shinny specks. Pretty sure that's gold. I ended up buying a big pyrex bowl, I am going to do everything in the bowl. I transferred the CuCl2 solution(from the erlenmeyer the one with the tiny shiny specks), and the stuff I had in the beaker in to the bowl. i rinsed everything good and put it all in to the bowl. I see what you guys mean now, it's more of an art form.

I just have one question if anyone can answer. The post said(or the post referenced another post) that you will eventually end up with a lot of etching solution. It also said, "if the solution is dark add some H2O2, if you see a lot of bubbles had some HCl" So I am a bit confused.

Wouldn't the volume of the etching solution be the same? If you re use it(you would actually lose some in transfers). I am just confused about the etching solution. Do I only reuse "some of it" and add some HCl and H2O2? Or do I use all of the etching solution?

When the solution is dark should I add some H2O2?(concerned about adding to much).

ETA: byte-tech thanks, looking for it now.

 

[Shark]

When I first ran in to this, I took two shot glasses and filled them half full of my copper (II) chloride. To one glass I added a few milliliters of peroxide and the other received a few milliliters of HCl. The best I recall it almost always needed the HCl. With a similar test you can determine which you need fairly quick. Even a test tube will be enough, just see which turns it that beautiful green again. Now I use an air pump, and leave it running, even when not working on removing foils. It keeps things ready to go whenever I am ready to use it, and some of it is over a year old. Once you have the Copper (II) chloride made, it shouldn't need more peroxide, a small air pump will keep it just fine (depending on how large of lots your working with, you may need a larger pump). It may need filtering occasionally as well to remove any metals that may fall out of solution. I am sure some of the more advanced members can explain it better as my chemistry is nothing to brag about.

 

[butcher]

pu_239,

What your asking about is using the Copper II chloride (CuCl2) etch, to dissolve Copper, then regenerating the solution that basically becomes a saturated solution of Copper I Chloride (CuCl) as it dissolves copper, and regenerating it, or converting the solution back to a solution of Copper II chloride to be able to dissolve more copper.

Laser Steve has a very good document on his web site, that explains it very well, anyone using the CuCl2 solution as an etch should read the document to get a better understanding of the process.

There has also been an awful lot of information written on the forum about this topic if you wish a source of further information on this subject.

I am glad you had success, I could not see you do the work, but from your description it sounds like a few things you should do a bit differently, as noted too much oxidizer (H2O2) will dissolve gold, and even though a small amount of heat (warm) can be beneficial, too much heat can create problems.

Heat can help to speed the reaction, but can also drive off needed components from solution, if overdone, and can cause other problems.

Hotter or faster for some things is not always better, or a good thing, we can cook the batch of cookies at very hot temperature, and cook the cookies a heck of a lot faster, with a hotter stove, but the cookies may not come out of the oven as good.

I could spend the time (again) to explain the chemistry but have done it so many times, there is no real reason to do so again, as the posts are here on the forum to read if any one wish's to learn, many people have explained the chemistry here on the forum, (or in the document on Laser Steve's web site) if any one wishes to learn it, all they have to do is spend the time to read it.

 

[joekbit]

I may not know the correct "chemisty" description, but the purpose of the stannous chloride is to precipitate gold out of solution as a colloid, which will be violet. It won't work on elemental gold metal or gold powder, no matter how fine, only on gold in solution that does not still have an overpowering oxidiser (excess nitric) that's keeping it dissolved, or redissolving it.

Correct, stannous will precipitate gold (colloid) and it will have a violet color. I have done this experimenting. I use my stannous to check my solutions by placing a drop of the solution on a Q tip followed by a drop of stannous. Anything white works. You can put a drop on a white plate and add stannous. My recommendation is to create a proofing (gold) solution. One that you know has gold in it. You can use it to make sure your stannous is still good.

I have a 22k solution of Au2Cl6. I keep it in a 50ml jar, capped. I use it verify that my stannous is still active. Stannous will degrade. So far mine seems to last about 1 to 2 weeks. As it degrades the reaction time also seems to slow down.

 

[Pantherlikher]

Wow...
This forum is the best at teaching those that wish to learn...
Now it is reverting back to kindergarten by spoon feeding the ignorant.

So sorry for stomping a bit but if the genius would put away his chemistry set and begin reading and actually learning how to... This thread would have died out a while back.

Read and learn the whole process from start to finish on Acid Peroxide,(AP). While learning all about it, you will find many posts on "experimenters" trying this and then asking the same things you have been.

Do yourself a major plus; study and concentrate on your finals and get them out of the way.
Then study the forum and all the information and knowledge it has to offer like you are studying for a final.

Then and only then should you be "experimenting"!

I, not knowing much or being special, see you are wasting fluids, creating a lot of waste to properly dispose of, losing gold, and wasting time not only yours but the forum as well.

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak. Everyone so far has held your hand but you still refuse to learn.
WAKE UP PLEASE.
There is a reason for AP and a reason for dissolving gold directly.

There is a reason for using O2 instead of more peroxide.

There is a reason for everything already covered in the forum here. You simply need to stop "experimenting" and learn it. When you see why things are done a certain way, then do it the right way and then proceed to experiment your way and hopefully you can find a better way.

All that being shoved at you...

I AP everything in a 1gal bucket with an air bubbler Overnight. I don't have mountains of plated gold to go through but if I did, I would scale my known process up like others have detailed here.

There is a process from start to finish with RAM sticks. It's detailed within the words of the forum. Don't change it because you are Special. Master the known processes first and then work on making them better.

ADHD is difficult to manage but I find that separating and giving each squirrel, running aimlessly around my head, something to do works wonders. I studied for tests listening to music and watching TV while snacking on different things. Got A's when I wanted to.

Hope you step back and visualize your future.
Good Luck

B.S.

 

[bswartzwelder]

PU 239, If you study the forum and use the search function, you will find the CuCl (AP) that you made can be reused over and over again. You just have to add a little bit of something (which is free) to keep rejuvenating it. Study the forum, use the search function, and you will quickly find out what that is.

 

[eaglewings35]

Welcome pu_239,

if you want to make a profit with small lots, you need to get e-scrap for free or almost for free. If you don't consider the time spent and the lab ware, you will often go +/- zero, if you pay what the large refineries pay and have the PMs for the net price.

HCl alone will not dissolve copper. Look for the threads about CuCl2 leach.

As far as possible we never boil PM containing solutions. If you have to, you need some kind of reflux to avoid loss.

Being a chemist will make a lot of things easier for you, but chemistry makes only 10% of the art. You can't fill a bottle, that is already full, so expect to be knowing nothing. Download Hoke, read and live it. Search for the advices given to new members.

You have found an extraordinary place, where you will find all your questions already answered. This forum is full of people, who has done this a half lifetime professionally, full of chemists, physicists, engineers and impressive and ingenious autodidacts. If you understand this quickly, you have found a goldmine of information and helpful people.

Beggin your pardon sir, but HCl will dissolve copper all by it self. I have done it many times.
I add only my air hose.... I no longer add anything else.

 

[pu_239]

pu_239,
I am glad you had success, I could not see you do the work, but from your description it sounds like a few things you should do a bit differently, as noted too much oxidizer (H2O2) will dissolve gold, and even though a small amount of heat (warm) can be beneficial, too much heat can create problems.
Heat can help to speed the reaction, but can also drive off needed components from solution, if overdone, and can cause other problems.
Hotter or faster for some things is not always better, or a good thing, we can cook the batch of cookies at very hot temperature, and cook the cookies a heck of a lot faster, with a hotter stove, but the cookies may not come out of the oven as good.

You know… It’s weird, I saw lasersteves videos, he used a lot more H2O2 than what people are recommending on this topic. I am doing my last batch right now, I didn’t add that much H2O2, just a little bit as people recommended on this topic. Yes I know that heat(too much) can ruin a reaction. My second batch, had some difficulties. I used the HCL+bleach method to dissolve the gold. I hated it, still do. I have a P100 respiratory with face shield. I could smell the Chlorine gas through it. I don’t understand, I saw Steve’s video, when he used it, the gold dissolved very quickly. For me it’s taking hours, up to 6-12 if not longer.

I filtered out whatever dissolved, and I had the filter paper with gold and some impurities. I crashed out the gold in the AuCl4- solution. The filter paper and impurities, I just simply added some NaNO3 + HCl, and heated it up. I never made “poor mans aqua regia” my plan was just to make my own HNO3. I have the NaNO3, and sulfuric acid, was going to distill them together to make NO3. Still haven’t put the pump together for the condenser.
The Solution I made to dissolve the filter paper and gold it worked for the most part. I just need to know the ratios. I filtered off that stuff and crashed out that AuCl4- as well.

I had this “waste beaker” that had gold stuff in it, and a filter paper with the gold that didn’t filter(dissolve). So I put all that stuff in some HCl and Chlorox, hoping it does dissolve it all. I have it in a erlenemeyer flask topped off with a funnel to limit evaporation and gas production. If that doesn’t work I will just evaporate off whatever Cl2 gas can be produced. Check the pH and run the solution through aqua regia.

I am running the AP in 50 degree’s C right now. That what was recommended by Steve(well a link he posted).
People talked about “dissolved gold” I saw the reaction and see how it can be dissolved. So I know I have some gold in my CuCl2 solution. I crashed out the copper with some aluminum foil. I plan to filter out the copper. Now I have a solution with Al ions. I plan to crash that out with some NaOH. Filter it, then I should have a solution of mostly AuCl4-. Then I can crash that out with some SMB.

I let the gold settle and I tried to decant it, I saw little spots of gold in the solution still, not settled. I see some floating on top as well. They are very tiny. I decanted the solution in to a smaller beaker and I have it on the hot plate which is pretty low. I read from steve that heating it will help the gold settle. I see little black spots on the bottom just from the solution that the gold was in.

I did purchase Steve’s videos last night, I bought 2 of them. The one for the Ap method, and Palladium and Rhodium from catalytic converters.
People say “Use the search function” I do, and you know what pops up? 500 replies to 1 topic. Yet the topic title isn’t even what I am looking for.

I guess my 2 real questions are, "What are the ratios for poorman's aqua regia?(I did try searching).

 

[pu_239]

Wow...
This forum is the best at teaching those that wish to learn...
Now it is reverting back to kindergarten by spoon feeding the ignorant.

So sorry for stomping a bit but if the genius would put away his chemistry set and begin reading and actually learning how to... This thread would have died out a while back.

Read and learn the whole process from start to finish on Acid Peroxide,(AP). While learning all about it, you will find many posts on "experimenters" trying this and then asking the same things you have been.

Do yourself a major plus; study and concentrate on your finals and get them out of the way.
Then study the forum and all the information and knowledge it has to offer like you are studying for a final.

Then and only then should you be "experimenting"!

I, not knowing much or being special, see you are wasting fluids, creating a lot of waste to properly dispose of, losing gold, and wasting time not only yours but the forum as well.

There are many ways to skin a cat so to speak. Everyone so far has held your hand but you still refuse to learn.
WAKE UP PLEASE.
There is a reason for AP and a reason for dissolving gold directly.

There is a reason for using O2 instead of more peroxide.

There is a reason for everything already covered in the forum here. You simply need to stop "experimenting" and learn it. When you see why things are done a certain way, then do it the right way and then proceed to experiment your way and hopefully you can find a better way.

All that being shoved at you...

I AP everything in a 1gal bucket with an air bubbler Overnight. I don't have mountains of plated gold to go through but if I did, I would scale my known process up like others have detailed here.

There is a process from start to finish with RAM sticks. It's detailed within the words of the forum. Don't change it because you are Special. Master the known processes first and then work on making them better.

ADHD is difficult to manage but I find that separating and giving each squirrel, running aimlessly around my head, something to do works wonders. I studied for tests listening to music and watching TV while snacking on different things. Got A's when I wanted to.

Hope you step back and visualize your future.
Good Luck

B.S.

I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I read all your post, I agree with most of what you said. I just got impatient I guess. Here is one of my major concerns. I have a feeling, the air blubbers is probably the method that would produce the best yield. One of the videos I seen, the guy said "wait about 6-7 days." That's just simply too long. Just curious about your time, You said something about 24hrs?

If you don't have the patience to wait when working in this field you will not get far.