I Need an XRF, because my refinery pinches. Any help appreciated!

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M

Midlands

Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2024
Messages
9
Location
South Carolina
I'm on good terms with the guy who operates my somewhat nearby refinery. I've always suspected they may pinch a little, but if so, it's probably just a little. Moreover, when my packages go to their other locations (for aquia regia process to remove diamonds or when I mail it in) every karat bag comes up noticably short in purity. I need an XRF so I can melt my scrap into a cake and XRF it before sending it in.

But I see websites with $12K XRF and others with $2k models.

Are there decent budget models I can use for gold and silver?
Are there good sources for used and remanufactured guns?
And are there models and sources I should avoid?

You guys are the only ones in the universe to ask this as a group. So please guide me with your collective wisdom.

Thanks!
 
Midlands said:
I'm on good terms with the guy who operates my somewhat nearby refinery. I've always suspected they may pinch a little, but if so, it's probably just a little. Moreover, when my packages go to their other locations (for aquia regia process to remove diamonds or when I mail it in) every karat bag comes up noticably short in purity. I need an XRF so I can melt my scrap into a cake and XRF it before sending it in.

But I see websites with $12K XRF and others with $2k models.

Are there decent budget models I can use for gold and silver?
Are there good sources for used and remanufactured guns?
And are there models and sources I should avoid?

You guys are the only ones in the universe to ask this as a group. So please guide me with your collective wisdom.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Welcome to us.
I hope you will get good advice by someone with more intricate knowledge in XRFs than me.
 
Welcome to the forum.

With an XRF, you get what you pay for. From your inquiry it seems that you are in some way involved in gold buying. If that is the case, how are you testing what you buy now? If you are shipping a few loads a month and only using an XRF to test that shipment, you will have a long time waiting for a return on investment with a good XRF.

Do you currently melt your own scrap? If you do not, your calculation needs to take into account a melt loss. I always advise buyers to invest in a simple inexpensive gas furnace and melt their bars before shipping to a refiner. This way your melt loss is less. The first melt has the highest melt loss and a second melt at the refiner will be less.

I would melt a bar and take a dip sample and send i t out to a reputable assay house. Then i would send the bar to the refiner and see his result. In the future you can save up a small group of samples that you have had assayed and know the result and use that to have the refiner check his XRF. If he isn't being honest it will show and you need another refiner.
 
I test my scrap with the good ol' acid test + markings. Obviously, there is variation within a range here, as a lot of stuff is below karat. But I know for sure things happen when my loads go to any of their other locations. The numbers are always under.

Can you give me some actual pirces on XRFs? Models? Sources?
 
Midlands, since you are in the US, keep in mind that there has always been tolerance for underkarating. Until 1981, there could be up to one karat under what the item was marked and it was still legal, so a chain stamped 14K could actually only be 13K. While the laws have changed, and the tolerance was reduced, it's hard to know if an item was manufactured before or after the plumb laws. And that only accounts for those manufacturers who try to follow the laws. Anyone with $20.00 can buy a stamp for 14K or whatever they want to stamp their items, churn out jewelry all day long, stamp it, and who knows the actual gold content.

Just food for thought.

Dave
 
FrugalRefiner said:
Midlands, since you are in the US, keep in mind that there has always been tolerance for underkarating. Until 1981, there could be up to one karat under what the item was marked and it was still legal, so a chain stamped 14K could actually only be 13K. While the laws have changed, and the tolerance was reduced, it's hard to know if an item was manufactured before or after the plumb laws. And that only accounts for those manufacturers who try to follow the laws. Anyone with $20.00 can buy a stamp for 14K or whatever they want to stamp their items, churn out jewelry all day long, stamp it, and who knows the actual gold content.

Just food for thought.

Dave
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Yes, I know. Thanks for pointing it out, though. Nonetheless, I have noticed a pattern in my packages; it always works out well enough when I bring them in to my buddy. It always seems to come up short when I send it to the other location.

I'm not big on spending business money unecessarily, but without room or a dedicated space to refine, an XRF would give me peace of mind, and proof if necessary.
 
But what are you going to do with the proof? Make them pay or just stop using them?

If you have noticed that it is consistently low, stop using them.

Thermo Niton XL2 980, plan to spend $24000 initial investment, then another two grand per year for life for maintenance / upgrades.
 
snoman701 said:
Thermo Niton XL2 980, plan to spend $24000 initial investment, then another two grand per year for life for maintenance / upgrades.
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That will eat up a lot of pinches! If the speed of the result is desirable then XRF can be a worthwhile investment, it all comes down to how much metal you are moving and how hard you are being pinched.
 
snoman701 said:
But what are you going to do with the proof? Make them pay or just stop using them?

If you have noticed that it is consistently low, stop using them.

Thermo Niton XL2 980, plan to spend $24000 initial investment, then another two grand per year for life for maintenance / upgrades.
Click to expand...
I would just stop using them. Nobody likes to switch things up, but if I do, I'd prefer to be 100% sure.
 
4metals said:
That will eat up a lot of pinches! If the speed of the result is desirable then XRF can be a worthwhile investment, it all comes down to how much metal you are moving and how hard you are being pinched.
Click to expand...

Yikes. You ain't kidding. If the intial outlay isn't bad enough, constant updates and ongong costs are just adding insult to injury. Maybe I need to reassess the process of refining by melting, or maybe aqua regia with less harsh fumes (hydrogen peroxide, etc.). FXstreet on yt has a bunch of vids for this.
 
I did go with a furnace capable of 2100 F for a melt. A burn out furnace can be had for $300.00. A couple of 50 ml beakers, some nitric and Silver (you already have ), a scale accurate to a milligram ($80.00 ), and you will know what you really have, prior to submitting your product to them. Then up to you to decide if you need to change your partners, or at least talk to them first to see if they will renegotiate, if you can prove them wrong. As 4metals said, there are cheaper, and more accurate ways to define the Au content. You just have to learn the speedy, cheap way to do it.
 
goldshark said:
I did go with a furnace capable of 2100 F for a melt. A burn out furnace can be had for $300.00. A couple of 50 ml beakers, some nitric and Silver (you already have ), a scale accurate to a milligram ($80.00 ), and you will know what you really have, prior to submitting your product to them. Then up to you to decide if you need to change your partners, or at least talk to them first to see if they will renegotiate, if you can prove them wrong. As 4metals said, there are cheaper, and more accurate ways to define the Au content. You just have to learn the speedy, cheap way to do it.
Click to expand...
This sounds good, but it's overwhelming to learn something like this. I've thought of finding somebody who knows their stuff and paying them a few hundred to let me come tag along and ask all the questions I want for a day. I'm going to start making a list of details, starting with the stuff you just said. And when people recommend specific equipment and sources, I'll add that to the notes.
 
We haven't had a good thread on fire assaying techniques in some time, years ago GSP and I wrote a detailed thread on fire assaying. I will try to find it. you will not need a lot of space to do basic fire assays but you will need an exhaust hood for the cupellation and one for the parting.
 
I know a gold buyer who set up the working part of his business in a 20 foot long storage container. He had a melt shop in one half and fire assay in the other. He rented a business space with an overhead garage door in the back and rolled the container in and in a day he was working. The title of the thread where we discussed fire assay techniques HERE made me think of his setup.
 
Melt loss is always questionable for most jewellery scrap unless it’s hollow , dirty ,springs or wires inside or stone set , if your buyer uses dip samples then perhaps they take a large sample and do not report that amount into the final weight reported or their melting technique needs some attention.
The idea to do your own assays has the opportunity to offer that service to others at a fee maybe ask around.
 
Midlands said:
Yikes. You ain't kidding. If the intial outlay isn't bad enough, constant updates and ongong costs are just adding insult to injury. Maybe I need to reassess the process of refining by melting, or maybe aqua regia with less harsh fumes (hydrogen peroxide, etc.). FXstreet on yt has a bunch of vids for this.
Click to expand...
Aqua Regia is HCl and Nitric, if you use HCl and Peroxide it is not AR.
Sadly it is not suited for other than powders and foils.
 

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