Non-Chemical kill two birds one rock, making HNO3, CuSO4, Gold from pins

[Topher_osAUrus]

I agree completely butcher.

You can truly never know enough, can you?
(unless you are my wife, who is infallible and knows everything)

You answered my question spot on though (i believe, but I want to clarify just in case)

When adding dilute H2O2 to an AR solution, you in reality, are probably cutting the HNO3 down to around a 10-20% concentration level, assuming its already 50-70%, then cut to 35 with water, then remainder of the dilution from H202 and water thats in the HCl, correct?

I want to give it a go, but don't want to cause any unwanted issues down the line...

Thanks again, for the thread, the wisdom, and many things i have yet to learn from you and GRF.

 

[butcher]

I normally do not add H2O2 to aqua regia, although you could. Diluting the solution usually works well for me.

In aqua regia we are normally just using it to dissolve gold or other noble metals, very nonreactive metals like the platinum group metals, ideally with very little base metals or silver, in aqua regia the nitric acid is the oxidizer. Alone the nitric acid will not react with gold, and HCl will not react with gold. When these acids are mixed to make aqua regia they react with each other to make volatile gases in solution which forms nitrosyl chloride NOCl, and chlorine Cl₂ gas.
HNO3 + 3HCl --> NOCl _(g) + Cl_2(g) + 2H₂O

The nitric acid in aqua regia will help to oxidize the gold, to slightly attack it, taking electrons from the gold. But it is probably not the nitric as much being the primary oxidizer in solution, as it is the nitrosyl chloride and the chlorine gas being the primary oxidizing agent attacking the gold.

The NOCl and Cl2 gas are volatile in solution, and begin to gas out of the aqua regia as soon as we make aqua regia by mixing the two acids, a concentrated solution, a hot solution or a solution with metals involved, can make the gases leave the solution faster. Dilution of the solution, lower temperature, (less base metals in the metals especially the more reactive metals we are dissolving), the longer these gases can remain in solution to react with our gold. Dilution and lower temperatures can insure the gas stays in solution to react with gold, raising the temperature can make it react faster but will also cause more of our gas to leave the reaction, giving us less gas in solution, or what we need in solution to dissolve our gold.

So starting out with lower temperatures, and diluting the solution can help to insure we get more metal dissolved into our acid with a certain volume of acids used, or more bang for our buck with less acid used to dissolve the gold. This also makes less loss of the valuable volatile gases leaving our solution or polluting our air.

Adding H2O2 to aqua regia may help somewhat, but in aqua regia, unlike where we dissolve silver, or copper in nitric acid, Nitric oxide NO and nitrogen dioxide NO2 are not our primary gases formed which act as the oxidizing agent for the metals.

Although we do get the several different nitrogen oxide (NOx) gases forming from these reactions in aqua regia, and leaving our solution from decomposition of the nitrosyl chloride, NOCl decomposes to form nitric oxide (NO) and chlorine (Cl2) gas.

2NOCl_(g) --> 2NO_(g) + Cl_{2 (g)}

Because the nitric oxide (NO) reacts with oxygen in the atmospheric air above the beaker, we can see the gases as brown fumes, nitrogen dioxide reacting with the air, the brown fumes of NO2 which form from the reaction of nitric oxide and oxygen, producing nitrogen dioxide gas.
2NO + O2 --> 2NO2

Dilution is very useful with aqua regia, H2O2 may not help that much in my view.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Thank you for that information butcher.

I greatly appreciate it.

After i read Mrs. Hokes book, i quickly grabbed my old chemistry book and began reading it cover to cover to brush back up on my fundamental chemistry knowledge (its been a long time since my freshman year of highschool).

It is very apparent to me that you are a thorough and meticulous man. Just like a great many of other members of this forum... As dave has said, we are men cut from the same cloth.

Thanks for taking time to give me valuable insight. Hope the weather is fair for you up northwest. I got my first truly nice day in awhile here, so now its time to build some stuff.

Have a good one. And thank you again.

 

[butcher]

The weather here is just beautiful, but it is a shame, I have been too busy to be able to enjoy it.

I feel I need to make a few more points to add my last post, dilution of aqua regia helps keep gases in solution, but it can also slow down the reactions. A double edge sword, you need to determine when to use.

Heat along with dilution can be helpful in many reactions.
Heat can speed up many reactions, or drive off gases, (wanted or unwanted), sometimes make salts more soluble...
Each of these can have polar opposite effects.
Cooling can help keep gases in solution, or it can slow down many reactions, it can also be used to make many different salts more insoluble...

When to heat, dilute, cool or concentrate, with many reactions, we do, these can be on dependent on many different factors or circumstances, like how the acids react with metals, if we wish to conserve gases in solution, what metals we are reacting acids with,which acids we are using, and many more reasons this list can go on and on, basically when we learn the reactions and what happens in them, or gain experience, we can decide, or know, when dilution heat or the combination of, can give us an advantage for a desired outcome....

I never had any chemistry in school, (maybe some in high school where I did not learn a darn thing) I learned most of the chemistry from the forum, my research, work in my trades and from my little lab under the shade of an oak tree, recovering and refining what little gold I can get my hands on, Oh, and also from a few times from my mistakes (well maybe more than a few) :lol: ...

Topher_osAUrus,
You are the kind of member that makes this forum such a great place, you are interested, and will take time time to find answers, and do the needed research, in doing so you will be teaching us.
Welcome to the forum.

Education is as good as gold in our pockets, actually it is better, it will help us to put gold in our pocket, as well as the understanding in our minds.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Butcher, that is flattering, to say the least... But, i am simply here to learn and pass that on to whomever cares to hear me ramble... As Mrs Hoke said (a quote from another book that i coild not find to download...although i tried for many a hour to find it)
"No matter how a text is written, one reader will yearn for more
details while another will be bored by the tedious explicitness."

The greatness of this forum comes from the compilation of minds who are the former of that quote... We all have an insatiable thirst for knowledge, and only those with great hubris can say they know it all..

I love science....chemistry is wonderful and amazing....captivating. When i was young i wanted to make my own fireworks... Now im old(er...ish..) and i do just that... And that hobby lead me to another... And that one, this one, i like so much more... To see noble metals evade corosion from our natural atmospheric oxidation but yet bend to my will..(unless you have MASSIVE amounts of acid rain...I live on the outskirts of a big city...JUST far enough out of the limits to excercise my second ammendment rights without local law enforcement pestering me)

I make my nitric depending on how i feel that day....sometimes i recycle my stupid mistakes... Sometimes i make some mickey mouse acid (as gsp originally called it lol)..but, for that one. I do it slightly different... I (of course) keep the molar ratios intact (for the most part) but... I do this

1. Bring 100 mL Distilled H2O to boil, remove from high heat
2. Add 250 g of NaNO3 (i will elaborate shortly)
3. Stir until nitrate no longer dissolves
4.filter hot solution to remove impurities
5. Allow solution to slowly (VERY slowly) cool to precipitate pure nitrate crystals.
6.decant the remaining nitrate liquid
7. Dry and weigh crystals (sometimes i skip this)
8. Bring fresh 100ml h20 to boil(then lower heat)
9.add 170 g of pure NaNO3 crystals
10. Then i continue to do the traditional cold method until i distill the nitric off... The only other step in it i add, is snother filtration of the NaSO4 crystals before i put my solution in my salt/ice bath to sit overnight

I add a surplus of the initial nitrate prills because i am unsure of the purity (it says its a certain percent, but is that per prill, are nitarte prills mixed with bunk prills...etc... So, my logic was to mske as pure of a nitric as possible to put into my still)

Id appreciate any comments or concerns with this modified procedure.

Forgive my mis-punctuated paragraphs and typo's, writing this reply on my phone is a pain.

Again, thank you, i eagerly await your reply

 

[Anonymous]

Praise from Butcher indeed Topher. You've been here a couple of months and had those kind words from Butcher. Some of us have been here years and hardly even been acknowledged 8) 8)

(Butcher my tongue is firmly in cheek here - don't think I'm upset in any way :lol: )

 

[FrugalRefiner]

While dissolution, filtering, and crystalization can all be used for purification, it depends on what you start with whether it will accomplish your goal.

If you dissolve common rock salt and filter the solution you will remove insoluble material and end up with a purer salt solution.

Likewise, you can separate lead chloride from silver chloride by dissolving the lead chloride with hot water, leaving the insoluble silver chloride behind, then cooling/evaporating the solution for relatively clean lead chloride.

But if you have a mixture of sugar and salt, dissolving it, filtering it, and evaporating it will still leave you with a mixture of sugar and salt.

Whether your process will yield a purer NaNO₃ depends on what it might be combined with.

Dave

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Likewise, you can separate lead chloride from silver chloride by dissolving the lead chloride with hot water, leaving the insoluble silver chloride behind, then cooling/evaporating the solution for relatively clean lead chloride.


Whether your process will yield a purer NaNO₃ depends on what it might be combined with.

Dave

Yes, there is another step that the original guide for making nitric (besides the cold nitric one) i use sometimes, depending on if im refining with the product acid or if im doing extracurricular activities with it... And that step is, if the ppt salt of the NaNO3 is not in good crystal form, indicating impurities, it can be washed with isopropyl alcohol (there was another solvent that could also help remove impurities, but im not by my desk at the moment and dont want to give misleading information by my forgetfulness)

I also want to thank you dave, you've beeb very helpful in accommodating in my short lived forum career so far. I appreciate the warm welcome to a noobie.

You are all great

 

[butcher]

I Have praise, admiration, amazement, thankfulness, and, many other feelings and thoughts of the great members we have here on the forum.
But if I patted everyone on the back, thanked them for the great information they provided, told them how amazed I was at their insight, or knowledge insight or wisdom, how great of a job they were doing...
I could easily double, or more, my post count, and most likely fill the forums data base with praises...
Many times I am at loss of words, have a hard time saying things, or could not come close to expressing my admiration, or appreciation.

Do not feel, or think, I do not recognize,or am amazed at your skills, your wisdom or knowledge, that I do not have appreciation for...
The forum, and its great members mean to a lot to me, many here are a special breed of humanity.

I may not say it out loud, or recognize members in words,or individually. but that does mean I do not have a special appreciation, gratitude, or that special place in my heart, for you, and your contribution.
If I do not mention your name it is not because I do not recognize you.

All I can say is the forum members are great, and I thank you all.


Topher_osAUrus,
Distilling in itself is can be a major improvement in purification, or separation.
When distilling anything that is not volatile will stay in the boiling flask if the distillation process is run properly.
Some things like NaCl salts (which also can form volatile HCl gas), can be mostly removed from your feed stock using solubility rules, re-crystallization, filtration, and other methods...
As well as discarding of the first gases of a distillation run, which can help to remove the more volatile gases like HCl from your final product...
Much like the refining of metals. The more trash in, the more trash out which could add to contamination to our final products...
Again the more we understand and have knowledge of, the better we get in our chemistry of these metals, acids and salts...
Education is as good as gold in our pockets.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Butcher, i agree COMPLETELY...with everything i have read of yours..

I still feel flattered that i was one of the ones to get positive affirmation from you. It truly means alot and is another source of inspiration... But, yes... If i were to thank everyone that has helped me learn here...id have over 2,000 posts already and wouldnt ever have any time to refine my skills as a refiner!

Every. Single. Member...that is an active member ...well...you nailed it... They are a special breed. And i am glad to be apart of this community...and will continue to be until the day i die...or the internet does..

Hopefully by then i have read all 200k posts and have 60 notebooks full instead of just 6.

I wish the best to all of you.

Hopefully you can get some time to refine butcher... I had to steal some time today, but its beautiful outside. So i am glad to be out from behind my desk inside and outdoors, doing what i love