No nitric acid

[Aqlor]

I'm not home right now but I will check it once I am there,
What is the concentration of Sodium hypochlorite supposed to be? I hope it doesn't have any other impurities :S for smell and shine

 

[lmschers]

For platinum on cats.

---Can I mix HCl and Hydrogen peroxide instead? Would that do the same thing?
or does HO only help nitric acid?

Is the sodium in the bleach helpful for chlorine?

---also, will any bleach do? I'm in Thailand so they don't have the exact "chlorox" brand.
so I guess my question is still really about the sodium or the hydrogen peroxide...


and in the end what is the best way to precipitate?

 

[lazersteve]

For platinum on cats.

---Can I mix HCl and Hydrogen peroxide instead? Would that do the same thing?
or does HO only help nitric acid?

Yes. It will take longer and require heat, but it will work.

Is the sodium in the bleach helpful for chlorine?

No. It's the combination of bleach and HCl that makes the Chlorine. I've posted several references to documents with the equations. You can also search for chlorine water and bleach to find out more.

---also, will any bleach do? I'm in Thailand so they don't have the exact "chlorox" brand.

I use 10% sodium hypochlorite, I have also used 5%. You can purchase dry calcium hypochlorite but the calcium can be troublesome ( it forms insoluble compounds in some reactions). Straight chlorine gas will work with 32% HCl at 60C also (see chart posted above).

and in the end what is the best way to precipitate?

I use 1 grams of dry ammonium chloride per two grams of dissolved PGM. The solution should be hot (60C) and free of sediment and concentrated.
Steve

 

[Aqlor]

Got back from the store and I got some bleach with no additives and 4% sodium hypochlorite, best I could find

Is SMB easy to come by?

 

[lazersteve]

Another thing, after the foils are separated the first time from the fingers why are they cleaned with acid only? Shouldn't it be acid and peroxide ( the mix used before ) ?

As stated in the video the HCl is added to wash the foils free of solid copper I chloride which is insoluble in water or saturated AP, but soluble is HCl. Muriatic acid and peroixde will dissolve the free gold if the gold is not in the saturated solution. Read about copper chloride (previously referenced document above) and you should begin to understand what the reaction is really all about.

I get SMB at http://chemistrystore.com.

Steve

 

[Aqlor]

Oh, I see now, thanks lazersteve.

btw, when I was read AP just now I though of acetone peroxide, that got me scared

 

[lmschers]

Awesome, thanks a bunch steve!
I'm going to try cooking some cat dust with a lot of HCl and H2O2 tonight.
I have a week off of work so I'm trying to get a lot done.

SMB is the one thing I don't have...
I haven't paid much attention to it yet, is it mainly for precipitating gold?

I have a lot of zinc and ammonium chloride though....
What would you recommend for platinum?

--------
I tried AR with H2O2 on a cat (no brown NO fumes), and then just evaporated some of the liquid and got a fine grey dust.
I thought that was cool but then it poofed after i took a torch to it and it got too hot.
I tried to be gentle....
any ideas?
---------------------

and for any chemists out there, i've read that H2O2 can be made by electrolysis with 1 electrode in sodium hydroxide.
I'm trying to get a grip on the electrochemistry of all of this.
so with platinum electrodes I think you could separate common salt water into sodium hydroxide and chlorine gas.
and then use the (positive?) electrode on the sodium hydroxide to make peroxide.
am i crazy?

 

[lazersteve]

Cat dust requires constant stirring and heat (60-90C) to get the PGMs extracted.

The liquid from the extraction has to be properly prepared before you add any precipitants.

1. Filter until it is 100% free of sediment.

2. Adjust pH to 3-5 (not critical). Lower pH requires more zinc to precipitate the mixed PGMs.

3. Add zinc turnings to precipitate the mixed PGM powder. Zinc powder is contaminted with insoluble Cab-O-Sil (SiO2).

4. Redissolve in the minimum amount of AR possible (3 mL HCl : 1 mL HNO3 per gram).

5. Filter clear again. Save residue in filter as possible Rh.

6. Evaporate off all NOx gas in the presence of HCl.

7. Add NH4Cl to precipitate Pt salt. Use 1 grams of NH4Cl per 2 grams of Pt expected.

8. Filter out Pt salt (Rinse filter with 10% solution of ammonium chloride, do not use water) and test to be sure Pt is removed with a dash of NH4Cl.

9. Test for Pd with stannous chloride or DMG.

10. If positive evaporate to concentrate to deep burgundy color (blood red).

11. Add 1 gram of NH4Cl per 2 grams of Pd expected to hot solution (not boiling).

12. Add a single crystal of sodium chlorate one at a time until brick red powder forms. Each addition forms chlrine gas whcih fizzes and foams so be careful of booil over.

13. Filter Pd salt out with a crystal of sodium chlorate in filter. Rinse filter with 10% solution of ammonium chloride (do not use water).

14. Calcine and melt resulting metals under hydrogen flame.

This is all covered on my Fundamentals of Platinum and Palladium DVD and numerous times on the forum. If you want more details please read the forum, Hoke, or buy the DVD from my website, or all three.

Steve

 

[lmschers]

Ok, I boiled the cat dust in HCl and H2O2 for a couple hours.
I separated and filtered the liquid.
I evaporated off all the water (because i wasn't watching closely)
But then i added a little water to mix it up again and dissolve the crust that had stuck to the bottom.

Then I mixed up as much ammonium chloride as I could in a little hot water.

Then I poured the two together and waited...

This is what I got:
There is a whitish, very fine dust.
And the solution is a dark green.

What do you think the green might be?
Harold said over in another thread about "Platinum+silver" that the green would probably be platinum...
-----------------------
also...
I cooked down some solution of ammonium chloride and AR that i couldn't get a precipitate from last week.
When it was evaporated, there were green crystals of the same color.

 

[snglstack]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

 

[joem]

oh oh

 

[jimdoc]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

This is the best source of info out there.If you aren't going to do a little studying on your own,I guess you are out of luck.Or you can buy an Ebay how to book.

There are many different factors in this hobby so you aren't going to get a play by play how to book on every process.

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.Oh,and my horse isn't high,I don't even have a horse.

Jim

 

[Oz]

Heck of a first post there snglstack!

I have to ask if you are here just to post once your opinion as to your dissatisfaction with the forum, or if you are here to learn something. Might I suggest that stating off with a laundry list of what you dislike about the forum and its members is perhaps not the best way to foster an attitude in those of us that could help you, to do so.

If you do not like how information is presented here, there are highly qualified individuals here that will teach you all you wish, how you wish, for a fee less than your Masters Degree cost you.

I sure hope your Masters Degree is not in psychology or communications.

 

[Palladium]

Good luck in your quest for knowledge.Oh,and my horse isn't high,I don't even have a horse.

Jim

I had a horse one time. Had to sell him to put myself through graduate school. I miss my horse. Cat's are more fun.

 

[lmschers]

dammit, snagglestack! don't complain after my thread, now everyone is sidetracked...
your post makes you look ... bad.
i'm sure you can move on though... if you so desire.

watch MIT's open courseware for chemistry in youtube
also watch the periodic videos in youtube
then start wikipedia-ing every compound you don't know.
then download the books in people's tag lines.
then use the "search" on this site and start reading threads of relevance.

no it's not super organized, it's a community of people with a lot of questions and answers and ideas.
asking for guidance requires humility.
and the searching does kind of suck, but it pays off every time.

and so... anyone got ideas on my solutions?
i found some of the stannous chloride testing pictures and it appears that Pd is green in solution.
i'm finally just going to make some and actually use it.
novel idea... i know
i've just been going on the assumption that acids work on cats... but i should figure out what i've got anyway.

so should i start jumping for joy thinking that i actually got pure platinum to precipitate?
i think that should be orange...so
i want to do that... but i don't want to do that.
and i can't torch this because i'm out of fuel

 

[jimdoc]

i found some of the stannous chloride testing pictures and it appears that Pd is green in solution.
i'm finally just going to make some and actually use it.
novel idea... i know

Now that sounds like a great idea.

Jim

 

[lmschers]

Hi Jim. Did you look at my pictures? Can you answer any of my questions?

 

[texan]

Snaglestack is rudely blunt but maybe he does have a point that can be developed. Perhaps now is the time to develope a collection of "practice and procedures" on the forum. Even Lazersteve's procedure's have undergone some modification since he started his DVD series. Most engineering societies have a convention every year or so where papers and dissertations are presented and then published in a publication called the "Proceedings of the xxxx Society for the year XXXX."

Maybe it's time for the forum's first "party." This forum has a total of several thousand participants of varying interest...there may be a "core" that would be interested in putting something like this together. Out of this convention and possible future such events what we do as a hobby can be more organized and formalized.

Just an idea....

Texan

 

[lmschers]

Sounds fantastic to me. But then again I'm not the one who has to be persuaded.

There are those books at tinyurl though.
They're in the taglines of a few of the posters.
You can download them and they have pictures.

 

[jimdoc]

Hi Jim. Did you look at my pictures? Can you answer any of my questions?

I think LazerSteve will be the one to answer your questions.
Catalytic converters can vary greatly,and they are working on converters that will not use precious metals.Do you know what the converter was from?

Jim