No nitric acid

[goldsilverpro]

It was certainly never $.35-$.45.

I don't have my coin books here, but I know that the gold price was held constant at $20.67/ozT for, I'm thinking, about 100 years.That makes a $20 gold piece contain .96758 ozT of gold. At the same time, silver was held constant at, I'm thinking, $1.29, as Harold said. That gives a Au/Ag ratio of 16/1. For some reason, though, I seem to remember that the ratio was 15/1. However, that would make the silver price during that time to be $1.38. This works, since there are .723 ozT of Ag in a face value dollar of 90% quarters, dimes, or halves - $1/.723ozT= $1.38/ozT.

Maybe they changed it to $1.29 at some point. I know that was the constant price in about 1967. Maybe someone can straighten this out.

 

[TK Rose]

It was certainly never $.35-$.45.

GSP this is the second time in my 2 posts you have disputed my claims, this isn't going to be a trend is it?
I certainly hope not, as this is a nice place to discuss the refining of precious metals, and learn a few things in the process.

Source: U.S.G.S. Metal Prices in the United States through 1998

 

[Platdigger]

Mr. or Mrs. Rose,
with all respect, I am very certain GSP is not singling you out.

 

[Oz]

The key to this is whether one uses the official fixed price of the US dollar as defined by the acts of Congress (the silver content of the dollar coin) or the floating market price. They were often very different, in fact in 1873 the US actually had to demonetize silver for a while due to new silver discoveries in the west plunging the free market price of silver. This is why we had the Trade Dollar intended as a business strike only and contained more silver, hence a lower silver price per dollar.

Looking at the coins in as minted masses and purity...
1794-1795 Flowing hair $ –--- 416grains mass, .8924pure Ag, for 371.24grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1795-1803 Draped bust $--------416grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 374.4grains or .780Toz = $1.2820 per Toz
1836-1839 Gobrecht $------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1840-1873 Seated liberty $ -412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1873-1878 Trade Dollar------------420grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 378grains or .7875Toz = $1.2698 per Toz
1878-1904 Morgan $---------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1921 Morgan $---------------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1921-1928 Peace $-----------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1934-1935 Peace $-----------412.51grains mass, .900pure Ag, for 371.257grains or .773Toz = $1.2936 per Toz
1986 to-- Silver eagle $-------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Troy oz = $1.0000 per Toz

Now even with these numbers it must be remembered that silver dollar minting was changed as to content and stopped multiple times because the silver value contained was lower or higher in the free market place. Several times in US history silversmiths would get their silver from coins as the cheapest source. This is why we see damaged “coin silver” silversmithed items come in as scrap even today.

Now the US “official price” for gold is still set at $42.22 dollars. I will buy all the gold and silver you can get at these gold and silver prices mandated by the US government. Wrapping up though, from the issuance of the 1878 Morgan dollar until the 1935 Peace dollar the price of silver in "US silver dollars" as well as the paper dollars when exchanged for coin, was $1.2936

It is worth pointing out that in mint condition weights 10 dimes, or 4 quarters, or 2 half dollars, have a mass of only 25grams and contain 22.5grams of fine silver compared to the Morgan and Peace Dollars that have a mass of 26.73grams and contain 24.057grams of fine silver.

Well I have to go, I have some silver anodes I have to cast for silver cells.

 

[Harold_V]

On April 2, 1792 a bill was passed providing that the money of the account of the United States should be expressed in dollars, or units, dismes (dimes), or tenths and it goes on to detail cents and tenths of cents.

US Coinage, with rare exception, contains 90% silver and 10% copper. There are a few anomalies where that isn't true, but the net effect is for the coins to have a value based on the silver content, which was regulated for the sake of establishing value, by the government. It had nothing to do with the free market system, where it was often way out of sync.

Dollars were to contain 371.25 grains of pure silver
Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver
Quarters were to contain 92.8125 grains of pure silver
Dimes were to contain 37.0625 grains pure silver

Clearly, the silver content is a constant in US coins----with ten dimes having the same content as a silver dollar. The slight variation amounts to only an error of 5/8ths of a grain in ten dimes in total (which would be an error of .0625 grain per dime). It should be noted that a troy ounce contains 480 grains. Gross irregularities are due to a variation in silver/copper ratio, with the exception of the trade dollar.

Stats collected from A Guide Book of United States Coins, 32nd Edition, page 7.

Harold

Edit: note that I have corrected the amount of silver that is reputed to be in a silver dollar. Thanks, Oz.

 

[Oz]

At a quick glance there is something really wrong with those numbers.

Dollars were to contain 317.25 grains of pure silver
Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver, X 2 that would be 371.25grains
Quarters were to contain 92.8125 grains of pure silver, X 4 that would be 371.24grains
Dimes were to contain 37.0625 grains pure silver, X10 that would be 370.625grains

All significantly higher that the stated silver in the dollar coin.

 

[Harold_V]

At a quick glance there is something really wrong with those numbers.

Dollars were to contain 317.25 grains of pure silver
Halves were to contain 185.625 grains of pure silver, X 2 that would be 371.25grains
Quarters were to contain 92.8125 grains of pure silver, X 4 that would be 371.24grains
Dimes were to contain 37.0625 grains pure silver, X10 that would be 370.625grains

All significantly higher that the stated silver in the dollar coin.

Sigh!

Oh, yeah. My dyslexia is what's wrong. I'm going to correct the first entry, which SHOULD read 371.25 grains, not 317.25 grains.

Thanks, Oz.

Harold

 

[Oz]

The mint act of April 2nd, 1792 has been superseded multiple times by acts of Congress that changed the fineness and mass of US coins. Most of us do not have uncirculated coins from some of these older mintages to weigh so perhaps this page I attached will help everyone understand some of these changes. It references all of the Acts of Congress that made these changes.

Note that the mass of halves, quarters, and dimes were reduced compared to the dollar.

 

[Harold_V]

Thanks, Oz. Very enlightening.

Harold

 

[TK Rose]

The key to this is whether one uses the official fixed price of the US dollar as defined by the acts of Congress (the silver content of the dollar coin) or the floating market price.

True, and those in the industry, including Ms. Hoke, were/are held to market value for their metals, excluding gold.

In later years re: early '60's the public took advantage of the market price of silver by exchanging Silver Certificates for the metal, and in turn selling the metal into the market at a profit and subsequently when market price was above $1.38 selling U.S. 90% coin into the market at a profit.
The same as several years ago with U.S. 'copper' (brass or bronze, depending on year) cents and nickels, until the practice was outlawed.

So as stated Hoke's dismissal of Ag was simply value related, the labor involved in refining the silver waste was not profitable for small scale operations her book was intended for.

 

[Oz]

True, and those in the industry, including Ms. Hoke, were/are held to market value for their metals, excluding gold.

I'm not sure if that was actually true. One of the mints main jobs was to coin money from gold and silver that was brought in to them from the public at large (including other nation's coin), at cost (no profit to the mint). I am not sure at what point the mints ceased to offer this service as I have lost huge amounts of my data due to a hard drive crash about a year ago. I do know that function of the Mints was alive and well in the 1840's gold rush and is what caused the opening of the San Francisco Mint. The Carson City mint was opened for the same reasons in order to service the great quantities of silver coming from the Comstock Lode nearby. The CC Mint operated from 1870-1893 minting coins, and after ceasing to mint coins continued as a US Assay office for some time thereafter.

I had mentioned earlier that when silver prices were higher in dollars than the content of a silver $1 coin that silversmiths would melt the coins down without further purification to make their wares and stamp them “coin silver” or .900 as it was the least expensive way to obtain their material.

Now think if the silver price is the $0.35-$0.45 you mentioned and you are reclaiming silver from refining jewelers scrap. Would you sell that silver into the market at 35-45 cents per ounce, or would you take it into a US mint to be coined into dollars “at cost”? Having dollar coin struck with your silver at a silver spot price of 35-45 cents per ounce would give you an instant increase of value that would double or more its worth.

As I said though I am missing the majority of my old monetary history documents now. If you have documents from a reliable source that show when the mints ceased taking in raw metal to be coined I would appreciate seeing it, as I now longer remember the cut-off date. It is frustrating remembering the majority of this but no longer having my documentation to check or show as reference.

 

[jimdoc]

Some of these books may help;

http://www.archive.org/details/coinbookcomprisi00homa

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=us%20mint%20history

 

[Oz]

Thank you for the links Jim, I will check them out.

 

[TK Rose]

As the discussion has taken a turn to discussing American History, numismatics (Of which I have little knowledge, I am a metals man, not coin) I will acquiesce, thus,

As a result of the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 6814, nationalizing the nation’s hoard of privately owned non-monetary silver, and prohibiting private ownership of quantities exceeding 500 troy ounces. [1] Any amounts greater than this limit were to be surrendered to the U.S. government in exchange for U.S. silver certificates, minus a seigniorage (depending on the part of America in which you reside, this is known as vigorish, or 'tax') and manufacturing deduction of 61.32% [2].

With the value of silver certificates fixed to the redemption price of $1.2929 per troy ounce of silver, Americans only received fifty cents per troy ounce for the non-monetary silver they surrendered. Far from the $1.29 mentioned by members, and slightly more than the market price of Ag at the time of Hoke's writing her treatise. [3] At the time of the passing of the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, the actual market price for silver was approximately $.54 per troy ounce [4], so this arrangement worked to the slight advantage of the government.

The Silver Purchase Act of 1946 was then passed, establishing the U.S. government as the largest purchaser of silver in the world. The government bought silver directly from all domestic producers at a price floor set at $.905 per troy ounce, above the equilibrium silver price of $.87 at the time. [5] (Under this act, the U.S. government also sold silver at $.91, with a $.005 spread.) Silver producers benefited from receiving above-market price from the government for their product, while the U.S. taxpayer was forced to buy silver above the market price.

By the early 1960’s, the actual market price of silver breached this artificial price threshold. The U.S. government ceased to be a net purchaser of the metal. It immediately became profitable to purchase silver from the government. Since the Act of 1946 forced the government to sell at a fixed price, any spot price above $.91 would present the opportunity to acquire silver from the U.S. government at a discount. The government became a net seller of silver, and the hoard accumulated as a result of the Silver Purchase Act of 1946 began to shrink. By the mid-1960’s, the U.S. government had a problem. With the nation’s silver reserves decreasing due to the growing discount on silver afforded by the $.91 per troy ounce price obligation, the government could no longer afford to affix the dollar to silver prices. Additionally, once the market price of silver reached $1.29 per troy ounce, the price floor for the redemption of silver certificates established by the Silver Purchase Act of 1934 would be breached. At prices above this level, consumers could begin to purchase the certificates at face value, redeem them for silver, and sell the silver at a profit.

With its seigniorage erased, and facing both the net monetary losses from the legal obligation to sell silver at below-market prices as well as the continued honoring of silver certificates, the prospects that the nation’s silver supply would be exhausted became a threat to national security. The Treasury repealed the function of the original Silver Purchase Act of 1934 through a series of legislation between 1961 and 1963, and began pulling U.S. silver certificates from circulation. [6] By 1968, no more silver certificates could be redeemed. In 1966, the market price of silver reached the magic number of $1.38 per troy ounce. With a 90% silver quarter containing .1808 troy ounces, the U.S. government would be losing money, not only in the continued manufacturing but also through a shrinkage of the money supply due to speculators melting down the coins for profit.


1. 2. 3. http://www.conservativeusa.org/eo/1934/eo6814.htm

4. 5. http://www.goldmastersusa.com./silver_historical_prices.asp

6.. http://www.silverinstitute.org/19601965.php

 

[lmschers]

So... This is all very interesting but totally over my head.
I should find the prices for silver over here now.
There are lots of touristy markets in Bangkok with 92.7% silver jewelry. I want to make a silver cell and test some of it.
It's supposed to be cheap if I go to the markets at the Burmese border.
I'm in Thailand by the way, any recommendations on melting their money and selling it for profit?
I wonder how well it's refined in the first place...
The funny thing is that the 10 bhat coin (about 33 American cents by today's rates) looks very much like the 2 Euro coin.
So if you take a handful of them to Europe, you can spend them at roughly 8 times their value.
People have told me that machines accept them.

And I'm still working on cat converters. My chemistry department can't get any pure tin for stannous though. I sent an email to the only tin smelting company in Thailand but they don't seem to care about selling a few grams... or even pounds. They never wrote back.
I started with cat converters in the first place though because big ones with two honeycombs cost me about 15 USD if i buy them from a dude down the road.
Harddrives are also cheap, 75 cents or so. If I was going to work on gold, I think I would start with the pins on them. Does that sound like it would be worth it?

Through the university library, I accessed "Scifinder," an online database of scientific papers, and I got Gilchrest's 1934 Platinum paper. He mentioned that even a small presence of rhodium will turn a solution of PGMs and ammonium chloride green. I think that would explain what I've got back there in my picture. If anyone wants that paper, PM me. Also, if you have any recommendations for scientific papers, let me know. I was trying to find a good paper that explained H202's affinity for Nitrogen in nitric acid.
I talked to Rusty (very cool) and he gave me a huge book on electroplating that I will start reading soon. It's a monster. So many books to print... if my portable harddrive crashes, I'll cry.
Right now, I'm reading Sir Humphry Davy's book. It's from 1812 or so and it was a free downloadable google e-book. I'm reading that to try to understand chlorate cells better and perchlorate and chlorine. (and nitrous oxide too

--On a side note. I just finished reading the Kybalion and wish I could get Robert Fludd's alchemical drawings because they're really neat. But the guy over at alchemywebsite.com still hasn't emailed me back either.... anyone into alchemy? Check out darkbooks.org. It's awesome. You can download a lot of books on magic and alchemy. Lots of fun reads.--

 

[patnor1011]

So... This is all very interesting but totally over my head.
I should find the prices for silver over here now.
There are lots of touristy markets in Bangkok with 92.7% silver jewelry. I want to make a silver cell and test some of it.
It's supposed to be cheap if I go to the markets at the Burmese border.
I'm in Thailand by the way, any recommendations on melting their money and selling it for profit?
I wonder how well it's refined in the first place...
The funny thing is that the 10 bhat coin (about 33 American cents by today's rates) looks very much like the 2 Euro coin.
So if you take a handful of them to Europe, you can spend them at roughly 8 times their value.
People have told me that machines accept them.

And I'm still working on cat converters. My chemistry department can't get any pure tin for stannous though. I sent an email to the only tin smelting company in Thailand but they don't seem to care about selling a few grams... or even pounds. They never wrote back.
I started with cat converters in the first place though because big ones with two honeycombs cost me about 15 USD if i buy them from a dude down the road.
Harddrives are also cheap, 75 cents or so. If I was going to work on gold, I think I would start with the pins on them. Does that sound like it would be worth it?

Through the university library, I accessed "Scifinder," an online database of scientific papers, and I got Gilchrest's 1934 Platinum paper. He mentioned that even a small presence of rhodium will turn a solution of PGMs and ammonium chloride green. I think that would explain what I've got back there in my picture. If anyone wants that paper, PM me. Also, if you have any recommendations for scientific papers, let me know. I was trying to find a good paper that explained H202's affinity for Nitrogen in nitric acid.
I talked to Rusty (very cool) and he gave me a huge book on electroplating that I will start reading soon. It's a monster. So many books to print... if my portable harddrive crashes, I'll cry.
Right now, I'm reading Sir Humphry Davy's book. It's from 1812 or so and it was a free downloadable google e-book. I'm reading that to try to understand chlorate cells better and perchlorate and chlorine. (and nitrous oxide too

--On a side note. I just finished reading the Kybalion and wish I could get Robert Fludd's alchemical drawings because they're really neat. But the guy over at alchemywebsite.com still hasn't emailed me back either.... anyone into alchemy? Check out darkbooks.org. It's awesome. You can download a lot of books on magic and alchemy. Lots of fun reads.--

Not anymore. It was around few years ago and I tried that too out of curiosity but even then when I tried it worked in 1 in 10 of them. One of my friends is making jukebox machines so he was encountering many attempts to use different coins instead of proper money. What I saw more often is that people were trying to pass them on shops or where cash was involved and sometimes you can get that from shopkeeper as change...

 

[lmschers]

yeah, lord knows what kind of sensors are in different machines. i've never tried it.
you're right though, it would make more sense to just toss them into a handful of change and people probably wouldn't notice much.
the thing is... it's practically the same coin, right? just stamped differently.
I mean, I think they're made the same way; by machine pressing the metal.
I don't know what the ratios and alloys are though.
there's a wikipedia page explaining what metals are in them, but not the amounts.
anyway... its not exactly a get rich scheme, it's just kind of funny.

 

[patnor1011]

Its not nice to do that. I was stuck one time when I was about to pay for parking and machine did not wanted to accept that coin. I tried few more times then I checked that coin and it was not 2 euro coin. I was pretty piss*d as I had to go out to look for ATM to get money to pay for parking. :evil:

 

[wade brenckle]

Looks like this subject has been dead awhile. After reading %90 of it, I feel like most of the Q's I wanted to ask, but was hesatant to, I should have asked! :roll:

 

[mike59]

Hi everyone,

I want to start by saying that you people are doing an amassing job with this forum. It is and endless source of information.

That being said, I would like to reactivate the original question hoping that people wont make fun of me. So, I am Canadian and I really cannot find a way to get the nitric acid or the components I could use to prepare it. Everyplace single place which sells nitric acid or nitrates (Potassium Nitrate, Sodium Nitrate, etc) does not sell to individuals. All of them post a notice with "RESTRICTED COMPONENTS REGULATIONS OF THE EXPLOSIVES ACT".

I'm also quite sure that is illegal to bring the staff across the border from the south.

I would appreciate some advice.