No nitric acid

[lazersteve]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

The Guided Tour Link in my signature line below should help with the abbreviations. The abbreviations that you don't find in the links given are common to general chemistry and can be located via wiki (a suggestion given in the Guided Tour Link). I feel like my post above gave enough detail for anyone who follows the directions given to arrive at the same results I would. I also provided many other routes to the same results in the post above.

Aqua Regia (AR) = three parts muriatic acid (~32% HCl) to one part nitric acid (~68% HNO3) plus an equal volume of water (H2O) to the amount of HCl used. AR can also be made using 4 or even 5 parts HCl with the same results. The excess HCl works to help drive off the extra NOx (nitrogen oxide and dioxides) that are left in the solution after the metals have been dissolved.

The other items on washing and filtering are covered in great detail on the forum, in Hokes book, and on my website videos and DVDs.

As with any new scientific endeavour in life, there is a lot of pre-lab research that must be performed to become educated in the termonology, safety, and processes. All of that information is here on the forum and can be found via the search function or using the rough guide to the forum in the Guided Tour Link. If you are truly interested in learning to produce fine gold or platinum from scrap sources, it is your responsiblity to research the processes that best apply to your scrap. If after reading the Guided Tour and during your research you hit a wall with an abbreviation, step-by-step process or other process, feel free to post with your specific information and someone will be glad to help you solve the problem.

Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to organize the threads in such a way that all similar data is in the same area or thread. The main problem is that people jump in on a thread midway through and begin a new topic in the same thread.

The Guided Tour link was created as a means to orientate new members to the terms and reactions used here. If you find any dead links or lost images let us know and we will fix it if possible.

Steve

 

[lazersteve]

Sounds fantastic to me. But then again I'm not the one who has to be persuaded.

There are those books at tinyurl though.
They're in the taglines of a few of the posters.
You can download them and they have pictures.

I don't need persuasion to post, just a chance to get to it. I've never minded helping when I can.

This thread has jumped around a bit, from nitric substitutes, to gold, to cats, to a complaint, and now back to cats I suppose. If we are still talking about the same H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + HCl leach of crushed cat material that has been filtered until free of precipitate, and tested with stannous as positive, then here's my answer:

You stated you added ammonium chloride (NH4Cl) to the boiled down leach. The whitish powder is the result.

1. Siphon off the liquid after all of the powder settles.

2. Filter the white powder out into a flutted filter paper and rinse with 15% ammonium chloride solution while the powder is in the filter. Do not use water, it must be rinsed with 15% ammonium chloride.

3. Dissolve a small sample (~1 mg = about 1 milligram, not critical) of the white powder in a drop or two of water (use enough water as required ) in a test tube or spot plate well.

4. Add a drop of stannous chloride and post the photo.

5. Add two drops of the left over solution (golden yellow) to another test tube or spot plate well and add two drops of stannous chloride solution and post a photo.

6. Add two drops of the left over solution (golden yellow) to another test tube or spot plate well and add two drops of 1% DMG (dimethylglyoxime*)solution and post a photo.

7. All of this is covered by Hoke, my DVDs, my website, and the forum.

Steve

 

[Oz]

Imschers,

First I would suggest that you buy or make some stannous chloride for testing your solutions before doing much more of anything. You are driving blind without it. Since testing for Pd can be a bit tricky with stannous due to its chameleon colors, I would also suggest you get some DMG (dimethylglyoxime) for testing it.

I have not tried HCl with H2O2 on cat material before since most PGM reactions are far better with heat and heat rapidly decomposes H2O2, but it should work. I usually use HCl and sodium hypochlorite (unscented household bleach) or chlorine gas. I typically stay away from the HCl and nitric as it is a hassle to remove excess nitric before precipitating PGM salts.

I also use my ammonium chloride dry as PGMs should be as concentrated as possible when precipitating their salts, using it as a solution is further dilution. Even then you will not get it all and need to cement wastes on copper or some other reclamation for full recovery.

As to your fine white dust. If you filtered well before adding your ammonium chloride, I would guess it is a salt. Take a sample and place it in a separate beaker with a little HCl and water and heat, if it is a salt from a chloride solution it should re-dissolve.

In short you need to slow down and learn testing for the presence of different elements. Although I have never seen Steve's DVDs I am sure they would be a good investment.

 

[lmschers]

GGGRRR
I just wrote up a nice post and then it disappeared when I clicked "post" ... lame.

Steve, thanks.
Talking about persuasion, I was referencing the book idea.
I wouldn't have much to add to it...
And I figured the forum guide book was good enough for most things.
although...
A sticky or book on cat con recycling would be a GREAT idea
hint hint, everyone.

and Oz yeah, I'm totally working as fast as I can. It's a bit reckless and wasteful but I'm learning (at least things are cheaper in Thailand).
I just had a week off of work so I tried to do everything that I could think of.

So...
With the HCl - H202 mix, it was a nice orange color after it was done boiling on the cat.
And it was really hard to evaporate so I let the liquid evaporate all night after I poured it off.
I got a crusty salt on the bottom, and i added some water and amm chloride to that and stirred it up.
Maybe i didn't get it do dissolve well enough...
I say that because there was no color change that I think would have pointed towards Pt dropping.
I just have the same ammount of fine dust as I did crust... but now the liquid is green.

Anyway. I've got some tin solder and HCl, so I'll mix up some stannous and test everything and post pictures this week.
I'll also order some DMG just in case.

Thanks guys,
Luke

 

[Harold_V]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

I understand.

You don't.

I have no education. I was lucky to graduate high school. I was a horrible student (I blame no one but myself).

You claim to have a Master's Degree. You claim to know "how to study".

Show me.

Show me by doing what you've been told, which appears to be highly insulting to you. I expect you to read Hoke's book. I'm not interested in the reasons why you think that's not necessary--I'm only interested in hearing you say you're reading the book. If you can't tell the readers that you are, you're wasting your time here.

The next thing I want to hear you say is it makes sense to you. When that happens, all the questions you expect to have answered (I call that being spoon fed) will have answered themselves, then we can concentrate on the things that are puzzling for you.

I have no patience with ANYONE that refuses to read Hoke's book, and even less patience with anyone that begins refining without an understanding of proper testing, working without stannous chloride, or the ability to discern one metal form another when they do test. All of that is in Hoke's book----and places you on an even footing with those of us that have experience.

I learned to refine without having one person to advise me on what to do and how to do it. I had never studied chemistry, nor did I have a clue how metals were purified. Everything I know I learned from books and the school of hard knocks. If a moron like me can do it, are you telling me a person that claims to know how to study can't? I was born at night----but it wasn't last night.

There---I've said my piece, too. Now get off your lazy butt and read Hoke, and absorb its contents. Then we'll have something to talk about.

Harold

edit: Answer this, if you can.

How many times do you think I, or any of us that contribute on a regular basis, should have to restate the same information, over and over again, when all of it is in print, free for the taking, in Hoke's book?

 

[lmschers]

Thanks Harold, even for the berating (if any of that was aimed at me, I haven't done any stannous tests).
I have read Hoke a lot in the past couple weeks.
And from Hoke I decided to use sodium hydroxide, nitric, then AR... but I must have not gotten rid of the nitric very well.
And then I just wanted to try the AP route because the consensus seemed to be that it was better.
But since this AP route is new... I guess no one's completely sure.
So for this green solution, I let the HCL and H2O2 mixture completely evaporate into a crust.
Which I was pretty sure was a bad idea. But I wasn't sure why.
After some thought and re reading, I think that that crust would be a fused platinum and Chlorine salt.
And since palladium is like nickel and nickel is green in nitric, then maybe adding the ammonium would have provided enough nitrogen to take the palladium into solution, making it green...
leaving me still with a platinum chloride kind of salt that i should probably just redissolve...
anyway...
I'll test it.

That makes sense to me.
(kinda ...

 

[goldsilverpro]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

I agree with much of what you say. It annoys me also when someone just says, "Read Hoke", or some similar statement, especially without giving a link where you can download it. When I say this, one particular member comes to mind. However, you'll find that we moderators and a few others try to explain things in detail or, at least, provide links to the right info. This forum grew so fast that it quickly got out of hand and no one really had the time to properly organize it.

 

[4metals]

For all of the complaining about the information found here I challenge anyone to find a better resource where members freely give of their time to explain things, often over and over, for little or no gain.

I'll be honest, I know this stuff cold and I've learned that the more you know the more options there are to do it differently. Does that lead to confusion? For some I'm sure it does but there are basic foundations that need to be in place for anyone to learn this stuff. Hoke happens to have put them in a concise format which is available for download on this site. Personally I think it is a great starting point.

Basic refining is really not too difficult if you don't read too much into it. For example aqua regia can be mixed as 1:3 or 1:4. Wow, that can be viewed as confusing. Or it can be seen as saying there is a degree of latitude a refiner has in making aqua regia, it will work anywhere in that range. It will also work in much lower ratios but that is something you learn from experimenting with it.

I didn't have the benefit of Hoke when I learned this stuff and I learned from experimenting with the basics. Years later when I did read Hoke, I found she did a wonderful job writing a book for non technical people who were not trained to be chemists.

I hate to pile it on here but everything is on this forum already, and criticism of those who took the time to post these methods isn't going to get you many bonus points.

 

[dtectr]

I spent over 15 years in the janitorial/custodial industry. I devoured every piece of literature available on products & practices. I spent hundreds of hours in discussion with product reps, manufacturers, even with the chemists that developed & produced the products I used, & I viewed & treated these professionals with the respect that they had earned & deserved. They were, quite literally, the difference between success & failure for me. My success meant that my family was cared for & my financial obligations met.

I then put into practice the new things I’d learned. At first, progress was slow - I took jobs that really ate my lunch, sometimes. But before I had finished, I learned why things went south & what I could do to prevent that from happening again. Sometimes the answer was never to take that kind of job again. Those lessons are burned into my brain, which is why I became so good at what I did. (I shut down my business for health reasons 5 years ago, & the poor guy that got my phone number after I shut it off still gets calls from my old customers).

However, every year, they were countless new “Janitorial Contractors” who thought they could make an easy buck, since all they had to do was buy a mop bucket & a floor machine & “Ouila’!” they were now professionals.
“Yesterday I couldn’t even spell “janitor” & today I are one!!”

Of course, since they didn’t want to do any studying or hard work, since they didn’t respect the industry or the customers. They would muddy the waters for a while, taking jobs that they had neither the skills nor the experience to execute successfully, and of course, they were out of business in less than a year.

But, in the meantime, they had taken money out of the hands of persons who had invested years in learning the trade, & food out of the mouths of their families. I even had some of them call me up & try to get me to divulge knowledge that it had taken me a decade to learn so they could continue to take away business!

The problem with these “fly by nighters” was that they were LAZY, they thought that were ENTITLED to money with no commensurate investment in time & training, and they had NO RESPECT for those who had made such an investment.

As I’ve stated before on this forum, what I am learning here has the potential to allow me to care for my family, & though no one is obligated to do so, the members here continue to share their scores of years of experience with me, & countless others, for which I feel truly indebted.

I guess Aretha was right: “R-E-S-P-E-C-T”
Just my dos centavos.

 

[lmschers]

@4metals so... if you know everything cold, could you give me a yes or no on the green stuff? or ideas maybe... there were crystals of ammonium chloride on the bottom of the beaker, i had a really saturated solution... learning by hard knocks here... reading constantly.

@dtectr sweet... life story time. i love this thread. how did we even get here?

hi, my name's luke. i've gotten star wars jokes since i was born, coincidentally i wish i was force sensitive.
i'd settle for a light saber.
(preferrably one made from aluminum oxide crystals fused around thick copper coils and powered by a large gyroscopically moving neodymium magnet.... i'm not saying it would cut through anything, but technically i think it should glow... and you could do that all with a fresnell lens, by my calculations)

i'm also a badass at magic the gathering and secretly wish i was a planeswalker.
(you probably would too if you knew what i was talking about)

i got an english/theater degree a few years ago and it promptly got me a job waiting tables. i was so friggin good in shakespeare productions... why didn't corporate america love me? then i did some valet, drove limousines, and then managed a parking garage.
just to pay for astronomical rent and ridiculous fees, taxes, and insurance.
thanks america! of course i could have paid for more school or taught high school in the styx, but that would have sucked...

anyway, i jumped ship. the bubble popped. i knew a guy in thailand and flew over here and now i'm a university professor of 18-21 yr old asian school girls in uniforms.
teaching is a great racket. in the past, the teachers here churned out countless students that, after 4 years, still couldn't speak english.
I'm doing my best to rectify that. and so i totally understand people that want to be filled with knowledge without learning.
if i could get these idiot girls to stop texting in the middle of class, they might actually impress their parents with a sentence or two.
everyone wishes the answers were easier, welcome to the world of high technology... or at least computers.
hell, even the alchemists thought that someone had figured it out long ago and if they translated enough texts, they'd find all the secrets.
personally, learning is a lot more fun for me if i think of it as a game.

so... back to chemistry. i want to refine platinum wire for electrolysis, because i have a chance to go to Ethiopia in 4 months and stay with a friend who's an engineer with the government. and recycling is better than bad... actually it's good.
i want to do solar powered electrolysis of brine.
i want to have that shit down pat.
because ... in order to fight ignorance and work some real magic, i gots to know just about everything.
and the platinum mines seem to suck pretty hard. i mean... they SUCK.
(of course they're not in Ethiopia, but... one country at at time)
electrolysis is where it's at: free soap and bathroom cleaner from the ocean... sounds good to me.
i've been sucking up everything i can from the net, and it's led me here.
i could just buy some wire... but i'm not.

am i crazy?
yes... i walk around my house in nothing but rubber gloves and underwear while playing with acid and jamming out to the stones.
do i care?
no, because i have a purpose.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree. With a Master's Degree (I know how to study), I'm also having a hard time making sense of all this disjointed, scattered info with unknown abbreviations, references to arcane, unknown techniques, and, to top it all off, the defensive, know-it-alls who would rather insult a budding hobbiest than actually help. "Just read Hoke's book" and all will be well. I'm here to tell ya follks, that's just not the way it is. This IS very difficult for even the determined...for instance "Use 3 parts of this chemical (some use 4)...". So what is it? 3 or 4 parts? Frustrating. "Wash with..."? :then filter"...what are we filtering? Through what? Get off your high horses, fellers, and help us out, rather than just tell us how hard YOU worked to learn something. Share it, and speak plain English. There. Said my piece. Thanks for listening.

Ok I finally counted to ten before deciding what to post about this(actually I counted to about a million!)
Most of you that know who I really am,know that my natural instinct is to rip this guy a new one,actually it's more like hijack his computer and ruin his world........BUT, a few of my friends have been working with me,that is why I have waited so long to reply and I am going to try a different route....
snglstack, looking at your post (from a different standpoint than my normal one) it just sounds like you are frusterated.I can understand that.I hope you read the replies to your post and realize that you can't just post your frustrations in haste.Patience is a huge part of processing,and if you run into a problem,then patience plays an even bigger role.I promise you that ALL the information you need to know is either in hoke's book, http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480
or here on the forum.None of us got to where we are by someone else doing this for us.We had to learn what we know(thank you to all who contributed to me and the forum).I hope that you will stay and learn what you need to know,if you do not then I fear you may end up hurt,or end up pouring out your precious metals because something went wrong and you weren't sure how to fix it.Whatever your decision is,I wish you the best of luck,and I hope that you have calmed down before you post again.

 

[Harold_V]

Thanks Harold, even for the berating (if any of that was aimed at me, I haven't done any stannous tests).

Do you also operate a motor vehicle without eyesight?
Without stannous chloride, you have no clue, and you're not likely to get one. I sure as hell wouldn't rely on the opinion of others when I needed to know what my solution contained. I would trust my own tests, not the unfounded opinion of others. The question you keep asking will answer itself when you apply stannous chloride. What's holding you back?

These are the kinds of things that make me sorry for trying to help. What do you want? Is it help? You've been given help---you were told to test with stannous chloride. That's what each of us would do if we had your question in our own labs.

If you're waiting for someone to answer your question, so you can avoid learning how to test your own solutions----that is surprisingly like being spoon fed. At some point in time you simply must apply yourself and do the things that are necessary for you to become successful as a refiner. Testing is a huge leap towards that objective.

This thread has been very enlightening for me. From this day forward, I will have nothing to offer those that do not read Hoke, and do not understand and apply testing. Why should I? All it does in encourage those with an entitlement attitude. I firmly believe there is no free lunch, and I'm not going to encourage those that think otherwise.

Read Hoke, and understand how to test----or you need not apply.

Harold

 

[lmschers]

um... dude i said thanks in my last post. and i took the stannous convo to heart, it makes sense. i mean... i'm tossing ideas out to the forum but also gonna make some stannous and test with it. i tried to make a fun and also honest post to decrease the levity around here. do i operate a vehicle without eyesight? please ...
i'm not the one who showed up and copped an attitude, i'm the one who showed up and read hoke and went to work. i read it online and took notes, and i keep going back to it. to be fair, it was a bit aggravating to read from scribed. and i just got to download it and print it out thanks to that last post. i also read wichers and gilcrhist, and i'd read the ninth international congress if i could find it online.

what's holding me back from testing? i tried to melt some unmarked solder wire i happened to have here in boiling HCl last night, but it didn't dissolve. so i'll go to the chem department and just get pure powder. in the past two days i also had to fix my motorcycle and start work again...
and might i mention here that NOTHING happens fast in thailand. it's taken me months to assemble all the stuff i needed to even start this.

and unfounded opinions of others? well i'm trying to find someone who's doing the same thing as me. i was looking for slightly founded answers... so i've been following a lot of lazersteve's advice because he says that he's done this. so far i haven't read that anyone else has actually gotten platinum out of cats, i certainly could be missing that literature, but i've got a lot to read. you yourself said that you gave up on them because they were too much trouble.

am i waiting for someone to answer my question...?
no sir, i'm not.
it'd be nice to find someone on the same page though.
anyone out there actually crushing these things and trying to extract platinum with acid?
anyone want to skype? PM me.

as an update, the precipitate that i got from the method of sodium hydroxide, then nitric with H2o2, and then AR with H2O2... that precipitate was half orange half yellow, now it's all orange and goey. so i'm hopeful.

 

[Oz]

WOW,

I kinda think I am done on this thread. Seems counterproductive to say anything anymore let alone refining advice. No hard feelings to anyone here, just my mindset.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

um... dude i said thanks in my last post. and i took the stannous convo to heart, it makes sense. i mean... i'm tossing ideas out to the forum but also gonna make some stannous and test with it. i tried to make a fun and also honest post to decrease the levity around here. do i operate a vehicle without eyesight? please ...
i'm not the one who showed up and copped an attitude, i'm the one who showed up and read hoke and went to work. i read it online and took notes, and i keep going back to it. to be fair, it was a bit aggravating to read from scribed. and i just got to download it and print it out thanks to that last post. i also read wichers and gilcrhist, and i'd read the ninth international congress if i could find it online.

what's holding me back from testing? i tried to melt some unmarked solder wire i happened to have here in boiling HCl last night, but it didn't dissolve. so i'll go to the chem department and just get pure powder. in the past two days i also had to fix my motorcycle and start work again...
and might i mention here that NOTHING happens fast in thailand. it's taken me months to assemble all the stuff i needed to even start this.

and unfounded opinions of others? well i'm trying to find someone who's doing the same thing as me. i was looking for slightly founded answers... so i've been following a lot of lazersteve's advice because he says that he's done this. so far i haven't read that anyone else has actually gotten platinum out of cats, i certainly could be missing that literature, but i've got a lot to read. you yourself said that you gave up on them because they were too much trouble.

am i waiting for someone to answer my question...?
no sir, i'm not.
it'd be nice to find someone on the same page though.
anyone out there actually crushing these things and trying to extract platinum with acid?
anyone want to skype? PM me.

as an update, the precipitate that i got from the method of sodium hydroxide, then nitric with H2o2, and then AR with H2O2... that precipitate was half orange half yellow, now it's all orange and goey. so i'm hopeful.

Do a search on the user Rusty and see what he has accomplished with cat's, he is not finished with the process but Ifeel it might help you out.

And calm the attitude, the path you are going down will get you removed from the forum. And for your safety you need the forum and it's info.

 

[lmschers]

to be clear, i'm not talking about herold copping an attitude, i was talking about snaggle.
herold seems frustrated and has always just tried to help.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

to be clear, i'm not talking about herold copping an attitude, i was talking about snaggle.
herold seems frustrated and has always just tried to help.

You are correct, my confusion. Sorry I haven't had any sleep for a couple of days.

 

[lazersteve]

If you want to see proof that the processes I have outlined several times for you and many others, simply buy my DVD Fundamentals of Platinum and Palladium and you can witness first hand the entire process of me recoverying PGMs from cats from harvesting to melting the final button and all steps in between. I have successfully extracted PGMs from cats on many occasions using the processes I demonstrate and write about.

You can get the DVD from:

http://goldrecovery.us/pricing.asp

The DVD demonstrates in full motion video the processes I have already outlined for you above and elsewhere. It's up to you to accurately follow the instructions I have provided. The more steps you omit or alter, the less likely you are to see the same results I produce on a regular basis. PGMs are indeed a different animal to porcess than gold or silver. They require more attention to details like concentrations of solutions, extraction times, and temperatures. They also require more patience as most of them do not dissolve as easily as gold and silver do.

I can tell you that you will need a known good solution of stannous chloride and 1% DMG (see full spelling above and receipe in General Reaction list sticky post) for the best results when working with PGMs. You will also need patience when extracting, filtering, and precipitating the resultling solutions.

Steve

 

[TK Rose]

... it even gives some basic guidelines on silver, although it is treated with little respect by Hoke. That's due, in part, to its relatively low value at the time of the writing of the book ($1.29/oz official valuation at the time).

I'm sure you meant, depending on what year Ms. Hoke penned the book, 35¢-45¢/ozt.

 

[Harold_V]

... it even gives some basic guidelines on silver, although it is treated with little respect by Hoke. That's due, in part, to its relatively low value at the time of the writing of the book ($1.29/oz official valuation at the time).

I'm sure you meant, depending on what year Ms. Hoke penned the book, 35¢-45¢/ozt.

Official valuation of silver for coinage in the US was based on silver @ $1.29/oz. , with the value of each coin based on silver content. The alloy for coinage in the US is stated to be 900 fine silver, with the balance being copper. Therefore, ten dimes weigh the same as a silver dollar, as do four quarters or two halves. Only when silver became an official commodity did that change.

If I am misinformed, I'd be pleased to read anything you care to offer to enlighten me. I like being properly informed.

Harold