Poor mans Nitric and Silver

[kurtak]

Ah, the poor man's nitric I've seen used mostly uses sodium/potassium nitrate with HCl, not sulfuric acid.

I have not read all the replies so sorry if someone else already said this

sodium/potassium nitrate plus HCl does not make poor man's nitric --- it makes poor man's AR

sodium/potassium nitrate plus sulfuric does makes poor man's nitric

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Just for the sake of accuracy, there should not be any chloride in poor man's nitric.

Thats not quite true - most any nitrate (potassium - sodium etc.) is more then likely going to have at least a trace of chloride in it - whether the chloride is of concern is going to depend on "the grade" of the nitrate

Example; - the company I buy chems from - for making fireworks sells 99.5% pure potassium nitrate

According to their data analysis the potassium nitrate contains about 0.06% chloride - likely not enough to be concerned about when making PMN (Poor Mans Nitric) but it is there

Back in 2007 Irons pointed out this same fact - only concerning sodium nitrate

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/gold-disolving-in-nitric.1116/#post-9323
The bottom line here is that in order to minimize the amount of chloride in PMN (so that it not of real concern) when making your PMN you want to make it with relatively pure nitrate to start with (98% pure or better)

If you use ordinary garden fertilizers (like the Hi-Yield nitrate of soda) the chloride in your PMN is likely to be high enough that it may well be a problem for dissolving silver & for that matter likely to dissolve at least traces of gold when dissolving base metals with PMN

As the saying goes - "garbage in = garbage out" - in this case the garbage out is the chloride that ends up in your PMN

Therefore - when making PMN you should use high purity nitrate salts (98% or better) - NOT off the shelf ordinary garden fertilizers which are very low grade nitrates & likely contain higher levels of chloride

Kurt

 

[eaglekeeper]

If you use ordinary garden fertilizers (like the Hi-Yield nitrate of soda) the chloride in your PMN is likely to be high enough that it may well be a problem for dissolving silver & for that matter likely to dissolve at least traces of gold when dissolving base metals with PMN

I can confirm that Hi-Yield, Nitrate of soda contains enough chlorides to cause problems with silver being present. I tried using it on alloyed gold a long time ago and the gold shot crusted over to the point the reaction stopped. I've never bought any 99.5% pure nitrate, so I can't say one way or the other on that...sounds accurate though.

By using lazersteves ideas we can use calcium nitrate to remove the remaining sulfates instead of distillation. Orvi mentions this in his post as well. While I don’t fully understand this I know that it means there is a way to make the nitric acid usable on silver without the problems generally associated with using poormans nitric. Lazersteve also mentions that the calcium nitrate won’t be a problem if not used in large excess.

I never tried using Calcium nitrate for this purpose.... maybe I'll try it on the next batch of nitric acid I make. I think I have a 5 Lbs bag (Hi-Yield brand) some where in the shop.

 

[Shark]

I would be curious how it works out. I don’t know when I will be able to try it myself.

 

[Rreyes097]

Short answer, yes that is all you have to do so long as you pay close attention to Geo’s video. Now keep in mind what Lazersteve has mentioned in the above quote and go back and read Orvi’s comments on page two.
(changed page number to the correct page)

I have used Geo’s method from his video many times to do gold filled. I treat the silver chloride as being dirty so I use sulfuric and iron to recover the silver and then (depending on how dirty) use a silver cell on it.

Edit:
(The down side is the volume of waste. It is considerably more volume than true nitric)

You now have two potentially new methods that are confusing but offer an opportunity to learn from.

So you use sulfuric acid and iron? Any way you could shoot me a search phrase or phrases that could further explain that process to me? Because I can't seem to find it. And laseresteves process sounds good I just don't have any calcium nitrate.

 

[Yggdrasil]

So you use sulfuric acid and iron? Any way you could shoot me a search phrase or phrases that could further explain that process to me? Because I can't seem to find it. And laseresteves process sounds good I just don't have any calcium nitrate.

I think you are mixing things, Sulfuric and Iron is for converting Silver Chloride to metallic Silver.

 

[Rreyes097]

I think you are mixing things, Sulfuric and Iron is for converting Silver Chloride to metallic Silver.

Oh..... Yeah I'm in the process of trying to reread this and other threads to see if there's actually any way to get the silver from gold filled but not having much luck finding it. Perhaps I really can't.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Oh..... Yeah I'm in the process of trying to reread this and other threads to see if there's actually any way to get the silver from gold filled but not having much luck finding it. Perhaps I really can't.

Of course you can, but first you need to get rid of the base metals, then you need to inquart it and then dissolve the Silver/Copper in Nitric.
Then you will have Silver Nitrate with some base metal Nitrates and two choices, cement or drop as Chloride.
The Gold will be relatively clean as crumbles or powder on the bottom.

 

[Rreyes097]

This my video of using poor man's nitric acid to process gold fingers. Poor man's AR is HCl and a solid nitrate. PM's nitric acid will work on any material you would use nitric acid on, even silver, just used distilled water instead of tap water.

So how do I get the silver from my gold filled after using pm nitric? I can't seem to find out understand the right answers.

 

[Rreyes097]

Thats not quite true - most any nitrate (potassium - sodium etc.) is more then likely going to have at least a trace of chloride in it - whether the chloride is of concern is going to depend on "the grade" of the nitrate

Example; - the company I buy chems from - for making fireworks sells 99.5% pure potassium nitrate

According to their data analysis the potassium nitrate contains about 0.06% chloride - likely not enough to be concerned about when making PMN (Poor Mans Nitric) but it is there

Back in 2007 Irons pointed out this same fact - only concerning sodium nitrate

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/gold-disolving-in-nitric.1116/#post-9323
The bottom line here is that in order to minimize the amount of chloride in PMN (so that it not of real concern) when making your PMN you want to make it with relatively pure nitrate to start with (98% pure or better)

If you use ordinary garden fertilizers (like the Hi-Yield nitrate of soda) the chloride in your PMN is likely to be high enough that it may well be a problem for dissolving silver & for that matter likely to dissolve at least traces of gold when dissolving base metals with PMN

As the saying goes - "garbage in = garbage out" - in this case the garbage out is the chloride that ends up in your PMN

Therefore - when making PMN you should use high purity nitrate salts (98% or better) - NOT off the shelf ordinary garden fertilizers which are very low grade nitrates & likely contain higher levels of chloride

Kurt

I have pure potassium nitrate.

 

[Yggdrasil]

So how do I get the silver from my gold filled after using pm nitric? I can't seem to find out understand the right answers.

You will need to inquart it after the base metals are out.
Then just use your poormans Nitric as any Nitric, the traces of Chloride will not matter much.
Wash the Gold throughly in Ammonia after the silver is gone into solution.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I have pure potassium nitrate.

I like Lazersteves idea about using Calcium Nitrate since it will turn into insoluble Gypsum and not stay in solution.

 

[Rreyes097]

You will need to inquart it after the base metals are out.
Then just use your poormans Nitric as any Nitric, the traces of Chloride will not matter much.
Wash the Gold throughly in Ammonia after the silver is gone into solution.

I guess I'm not understanding. I used pm nitric on gold filled and most of the foils have been freed from the base metals but I'm still in the process of dissolving them. After the base metals have been dissolved I do what?

 

[Rreyes097]

I like Lazersteves idea about using Calcium Nitrate since it will turn into insoluble Gypsum and not stay in solution.

I guess I'll need to get calcium nitrate? And use that, exactly how I'm still not sure. But I'm trying to read old posts right now.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I guess I'm not understanding. I used pm nitric on gold filled and most of the foils have been freed from the base metals but I'm still in the process of dissolving them. After the base metals have been dissolved I do what?

Since it is Gold Filled the foils are alloyed, you need to add Silver or Copper so the amount of Gold is equal to 6 karat and smelt it into granules.
The granules are put in Nitric and parted, which means you dissolve all that is not Gold.
The Gold will be the powder/mud/popcorn left in the bottom.
The Silver will be in the Solution.


I'm baffled, have you studied at all??
I' strongly believe you need to abandon this kind of Hobby/Work!!!!
I fear you are an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Rreyes097]

Since it is Gold Filled the foils are alloyed, you need to add Silver or Copper so the amount of Gold is equal to 6 karat and smelt it into granules.
The granules are put in Nitric and parted, which means you dissolve all that is not Gold.
The Gold will be the powder/mud/popcorn left in the bottom.
The Silver will be in the Solution.


I'm baffled, have you studied at all??
I' strongly believe you need to abandon this kind of Hobby/Work!!!!
I fear you are an accident waiting to happen.

Nothing I read said to do any of that. Im using poor man's nitric ( potassium nitrate and sulphuric acid) could you please show me a link or thread that says to do this for gold filled jewelry using pm nitric? Before i cause an accident to happen? Because I can't seem to find a straight answer.

 

[Rreyes097]

I have used Geo’s method from his video many times to do gold filled. I treat the silver chloride as being dirty so I use sulfuric and iron to recover the silver and then (depending on how dirty) use a silver cell on it.

This mentions nothing about inquarting. So please tell me where you see that on the forum? Have you done this process personally? So that I can go with your advice instead of what I've read so far?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Nothing I read said to do any of that. Im using poor man's nitric ( potassium nitrate and sulphuric acid) could you please show me a link or thread that says to do this for gold filled jewelry using pm nitric? Before i cause an accident to happen? Because I can't seem to find a straight answer.

It is all over the forum, literally hundreds if not thousands of threads.
All alloyed Gold needs to be inquarted and parted in Nitric.
Nitric is Nitric, poor mans Nitric is just not as pure as real Nitric.

 

[Rreyes097]

It is all over the forum, literally hundreds if not thousands of threads.
All alloyed Gold needs to be inquarted and parted in Nitric.
Nitric is Nitric, poor mans Nitric is just not as pure as real Nitric.

I have not seen gold filled jewelry treated as karat gold. I have inquarted karat gold. But gold filled to my knowledge has always been treated with dilute nitric to dissolve base metals. To allow foils to come off. I'm sure your advice is sound. But it's the first time I've heard of that.

 

[Rreyes097]

No sense in inquartering gold filled. Usually it goes straight to nitric, but AP can be used.

No I didn't inquart, as there was no need to since the material was gold filled (and not solid gold). If I had been dealing with solid gold, then inquarting would've been necessary.

I looked this up and got quotes on this