Processing SilverPlate With H2O Cell

[NobleMetalWorks]

Pure water (H2O) does not conduct electricity. It acts more like a insulator. That said, it's a poor insulator because it's such a good solvent. It's the impurities in water that allows it to conduct.
If you set up a cell with water and you're getting current flow that's a indicator that there are salts or minerals in the water.

At least that's what I've been taught.

Not necessarily true. When you make colloidal silver electrolytically (using 2 pure silver wires) for ingestion purposes, you want the purest water you can find. You want to end up with un-ionized colloidal silver metal clusters rather than ionic silver. Some commercially made colloidal silver and some internet methods use dissolved solids and the resulting silver is ionic. After researching this, I became nearly convinced that the blue skin problem is caused by the ingestion of ionic silver and not true colloidal silver. Using a milliammeter, I tested several brands of distilled water. I figured the greater the initial current flow, the less pure the water. Some were very impure and produced a high initial current. The best I found, by far, was Walgreen's more expensive variety (they sell 2), which ran about $1.75/gallon. I was using 27v and, for the first minute, or so, I read zero milliamps. Then, I started getting a little current flow. I'm thinking I stopped after 10 or 15 minutes and, by that time, I was getting substantial current flow. I assume that the metallic silver clusters (containing only a few atoms each) that formed became populated enough to allow some current to flow. When I ran it longer, although the solution was still water clear, there was a slight metallic sheen to it.

If the electrodes were of some more inert metal, like maybe 304 SS, I would say there would never be any current flow unless some chemical producing ions was added to the solution.

I also make colloidal and ionic solutions with 99.999 fine silver rods as cathode and anode in an earlimyer flask.

Here is the website:

http://www.silverlungs.com/

I don't promote businesses usually but these people have got it right. If you call them, you will be actually speaking to one of the two individuals who developed this system. I have been thinking about inviting them here. They very well may have something to contribute worthwhile.

Scott

 

[g_axelsson]

I'm with Butcher and Geo, there is something in the water that makes his work for you. As far as I know deionized water is a very good insulator and shouldn't be able to conduct any current at all. Are you using tap water?

If you are watching the silver come off in flakes then you aren't dissolving the silver, you are attacking the metal below and the silver plating is dropping off.

What happens if you use a pure silver object? If your solution is attacking the silver in silver plate then it should do it with a massive silver object too.

Anyhow, an interesting way to do things, maybe something usable will come out of this. Keep us posted.

Btw Butcher, colloidals doesn't have to be metals, a good (pun intended) counter example is colloidal fat in milk. :-D

/Göran

 

[Marcel]

A working electrolyt with pure H2O is impossible.Period.
What has happened here is that small impurities in the water (chlorine f.i.) or watersoluable material on the spoons have dissolved. As the process continues more impurities are accumulated in the solution which increases the conductivity. It is an avalanche effect. Very slow in the beginning and getting better over time.
I have tried the gold cell once with water. Just added minimal salt to it. It was the same effect. The amperage started very low and got higher as material dissolved. It works but all you do is create very dilute Cu(II)Cl. Here is a similiar effect. Something has dissolved - I suppose from the spoons - and created an electrolyte.

 

[ericrm]

that tread is so interesting ,i wish i had a chemistry background to give rather than take

why does silver acumulate in metalic form in the solution ? shound it be in a ionic form? why isnt it plating out? im also wondering why the powder is black? is it the same phenomenon that with gold and sulfuric?

or is it that the silver plate out so badly that it just doesnt hold as a plating(like with cucl when it just plate as a moss,but in this case it doesnt dissolve back because its water)?

edit:A more advanced system can be made by using a flow through process, where the EIS is drained off and new distilled water is added continually. Also, during electrolysis there will be a black buildup of silver powder on the cathode, and brown silver oxide on the anode. Reversing the polarity of the voltage every minute or so will cause these buildups to dissipate during the cycle. If you do not reverse polarity during brewing, then the electrodes should be cleaned after each use without using any soap or detergent.

this is from : THE REAL FACTS ON COLLOIDAL SILVER i dont know the validity of this , but it realy looklike what is happening....

 

[goldsilverpro]

A working electrolyt with pure H2O is impossible.Period.
What has happened here is that small impurities in the water (chlorine f.i.) or watersoluable material on the spoons have dissolved. As the process continues more impurities are accumulated in the solution which increases the conductivity. It is an avalanche effect. Very slow in the beginning and getting better over time.
I have tried the gold cell once with water. Just added minimal salt to it. It was the same effect. The amperage started very low and got higher as material dissolved. It works but all you do is create very dilute Cu(II)Cl. Here is a similiar effect. Something has dissolved - I suppose from the spoons - and created an electrolyte.

All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.

 

[MysticColby]

It's getting a little annoying that people keep saying that ultra pure water can not conduct electricity, can't be used as electrolyte, etc. first of all, I'm pretty sure there are no known materials that can't conduct any electricity. Given enough voltage, electrons will flow (anyone else watching Revolution and just shaking their head?). ultra pure water CAN conduct electricity. As a measure of it's purity, people usually use it's resistance. I believe ultra pure water has a resistance of 18.2 MΩ/cm (Mega Ohm per centimeter). granted, you would need a huge voltage to see an appreciably current, but it's there.
And this is why it CAN be used as an electrolyte - there IS a current, although very small. However, most cells rely on the impurities to partake in the reaction... unless you're just splitting water or (apparently) deplating silver.
Using tap water reduces this resistance considerably, as every water utility makes sure there is some impurities in it. deionized water isn't very tasty if you're used to non-deionized.

 

[modtheworld44]

It's getting a little annoying that people keep saying that ultra pure water can not conduct electricity, can't be used as electrolyte, etc. first of all, I'm pretty sure there are no known materials that can't conduct any electricity. Given enough voltage, electrons will flow (anyone else watching Revolution and just shaking their head?). ultra pure water CAN conduct electricity. As a measure of it's purity, people usually use it's resistance. I believe ultra pure water has a resistance of 18.2 MΩ/cm (Mega Ohm per centimeter). granted, you would need a huge voltage to see an appreciably current, but it's there.
And this is why it CAN be used as an electrolyte - there IS a current, although very small. However, most cells rely on the impurities to partake in the reaction... unless you're just splitting water or (apparently) deplating silver.
Using tap water reduces this resistance considerably, as every water utility makes sure there is some impurities in it. deionized water isn't very tasty if you're used to non-deionized.

MysticColby

I'm with you and GSP on this one,Water Can conduct electricity.

FOR ALL

Has any of yall tried this your selfs

The point of this thread was to provide everyone with a economical way to deplate silver without acid.I think that I have done that so far,But I would like to get to the bottom of what exactly is taking place in the cell.The only way to do that is for other members to do the set up too,then state there findings back here in this thread.
Thanks to all for your input so far look forward to reading more.



modtheworld44

 

[Geo]

i will set up a process tomorrow with approximate materials. i want to try the first time with regular tap water that has been through a filter to remove heavy metal,iron and reduce chlorine. i could use distilled but for the sake of experimenting, filtered water will be the first electrolyte. i have some plated flatware to try.if this works ok, i have about five pounds of silver plated military contacts ill try to figure out.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Pure water does not conduct electricity very well, hardly at all, this is true.

HOWEVER, in order to explain how colloidal silver is made, we should look at what is actually happening at the anode and cathode.

H+ cations will accumulate at the anode and OH− anions will accumulate at the cathode. This can be verified by adding a pH indicator to the water, the water near the anode is acidic while the water near the cathode is basic. The negative hydroxyl ions that approach the anode mostly combine with the positive hydronium ions (H3O+) to form water. The positive hydronium ions that approach the negative cathode mostly combine with negative hydroxyl ions to form water. Relatively few hydronium (hydroxyl) ions reach the cathode (anode). This can cause a concentration over potential at both electrodes.

In pure water at the negatively charged cathode, a reduction reaction takes place, with electrons (e−) from the cathode being given to hydrogen cations to form hydrogen gas (the half reaction balanced with acid):

Reduction at cathode: 2 H+(aq) + 2e− → H2(g)

At the positively charged anode, an oxidation reaction occurs, generating oxygen gas and giving electrons to the anode to complete the circuit:

Anode (oxidation): 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 H+(aq) + 4e−

Because the the cathode is made of silver, and because the silver oxidizes, small particles of silver, colloidal, are freed up and enter into solution.

Silver conducts electricity better than any of the other metals. So the more colloidal silver particles in the water, the better the water conducts electricity and the faster the oxidation/reaction takes place.

When making colloidal silver, it starts very slow, towards the end it speeds up considerably. I have watched this many times, I only use distilled water,I have made a lot of colloidal and ionic silver solutions.

Scott

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Also, because electricity will always take the path of least resistance, the flow of electrons are leaving your spoons at the handle, not at the scoop/spoon end. You can solve this by simply hammering your silverware flat, and turning them upside down after the top portion has been deplated. Ensuring the same distance between the full length of the anode and cathode, and turning them upside down after deplating the top portion, should allow you to completely deplate your silverware.

Scott

 

[modtheworld44]

i will set up a process tomorrow with approximate materials. i want to try the first time with regular tap water that has been through a filter to remove heavy metal,iron and reduce chlorine. i could use distilled but for the sake of experimenting, filtered water will be the first electrolyte. i have some plated flatware to try.if this works ok, i have about five pounds of silver plated military contacts ill try to figure out.

Geo

I'm really glad you've decided to try this and can't wait to here of your success.Take some notes and let us know what you're seeing in your setup.Let me know your specs for the cell you're making so we can cross reference the variations .Together I think we can make this turn out much better than what I've done.I'll make some more videos tomorrow ,Rain got in the way today .I plan on doing some acid tests on the solution and powder,But I do all activities involving acids outside .So as long as its not raining I'll be doing them.I look forward to your knowledge and input on this project.
thanks.



modtheworld44

 

[modtheworld44]

FOR ALL

Heres another video I made just a few minutes ago.





modtheworld44

 

[skippy]

All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.

Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?

 

[Geo]

 

[modtheworld44]

Geo

Thanks for posting the video here.Was that the copy embedded HTML.Its been a while since I posted a video like you did it.Have you watched the second video yet.Can't wait to see what kind of progress you get out of your cell.
Thanks.



modtheworld44

 

[Geo]

i tried to post the second one but i guess it was still being processed. it takes awhile for someone else to post your videos. i did watch it and it looks really promising. that was definitely silver coming off as a white precipitate. i think its silver chloride from the chlorine in the water. silver chloride is white and looks just like that when testing with hcl in a nitric solution.i wouldnt worry about it much because its only a small amount compared to what you are reclaiming.after the chlorine is depleted, the white precipitate should stop and silver will deplate in larger pieces from the looks of your first video.

 

[Geo]

 

[goldsilverpro]

All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.

Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?

The weight loss was proportional to the total number of amp-min or, amps times minutes. If the average amperage was .012 and it ran for 10 min, the number of amp-min would be .012 x 10 = .12. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the exact mathematical relationship between the two, but I know there was one.

The colloid clusters are so small they are invisible to the eye. I know they were there because I could taste them. Please note that I didn't taste the solution directly. I diluted a few drops with a small amount of water first. I should have used the Tyndall Effect to observe them, but I didn't. As I said before, after running it a longer period of time, there was a definite metallic sheen to the overall solution, but no individual particles could be seen. Had I run it longer, I would guess the clusters could combine (agglomerate) and perhaps become visible.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tyn...rg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&client=firefox-ahttps://www.google.com/search?q=tyn...WU2QWTvIDwAw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1138&bih=468___________________________________

On the internet, you can find many totally different explanations on how these silver colloids form from the electrolysis in water and what they are actually composed of. I've come to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what is happening, including myself and the people in the link that Scott gave. Everything I've seen so far is unsubstantiated theory.

To me, the important thing is that modtheworld44 has come up with an interesting process for stripping silver that appears to have some promise. It has some problems and it's not there yet. It doesn't "throw" into low current density areas and it's too slow. Also, what happens with the copper, if anything? At this point, experimentation is all important. If it can be made to work efficiently, who cares why it works? I know I don't. Sort of the forest and the trees type thing, if you concentrate on the theory instead of just making it work. If it works well, it could be a boon to everyone. This is water, folks. You can't get much safer or cheaper than that. Sure beats 180F, 95/5, H2SO₄/HNO₃.

One of the first things I would try is raising the pH with NaOH. I know of other stripping processes (using cyanide) where that works for stripping the silver and, at the same time, suppresses attack on the copper. Also, it might help the current throw into the low current density areas, prevent any ionic silver from forming, and the waste could be easily neutralized with HCl.. Another thing to try is to increase the voltage. Another is adding some heat. I can think of other things to try.

These experiments could be done in 100-200ml beakers. In any experiment, though, it is very important to be able to test the results. Another standard rule in experimentation is to never change more than one thing (variable) at a time. If you change 2 or more things and it works, you don't know which change made it work. Another rule I follow is, if I'm I'm adding some chemical to a solution, I always start with a small amount, run that, and then add more in increments to the same solution for future experiments. That way, you can perform multiple experiments without making up a fresh solution. If you add too much to start with, in order to reduce it, you have to use a fresh solution. And, of course, weigh or measure each addition and keep records.
______________________________

Something I've considered. Since modtheworld44 was able to melt that black stuff and end up with silver BBs, I would think the black stuff would have to be either silver metal or silver oxide. It certainly isn't silver chloride. Silver oxide is a possibility since oxygen is produced at the anode and silver oxide is easily reducible to metal with heat. Also, some of the internet explanations suggest this mechanism. As far as the end results are concerned, though, it makes no difference. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[modtheworld44]

All I can say is that I spent about 2 days experimenting with the making of colloidal silver using 2, 1/16" dia, 99.99% silver wires. I used the highest purity distilled water I could find inexpensively and added zero chemicals to it. It was done in a lab under quite clean conditions. I weighed the anode wire after each experiment on a .0001g analytical balance and plotted the weight loss vs the number of amp-min. The results showed a predictable relationship. I used 3, 9v batteries and constantly monitored the current flow with a meter. The solution was water clear and had a definite metallic taste.

Could you explain more about the plotted relationship? You mean current was proportional to weight loss rate?
Where did the coloid go if it was water clear?

The weight loss was proportional to the total number of amp-min or, amps times minutes. If the average amperage was .012 and it ran for 10 min, the number of amp-min would be .012 x 10 = .12. It's been a long time ago and I don't remember the exact mathematical relationship between the two.

The colloid clusters are so small they are invisible to the eye. I know they were there because I could taste them. Please note that I didn't taste the solution directly. I diluted a few drops with a small amount of water first. I should have used the Tyndall Effect to observe them, but I didn't. As I said before, after running it a longer period of time, there was a definite metallic sheen to the overall solution, but no individual particles could be seen. Had I run it longer, I would guess the clusters could agglomerate together and perhaps become visible.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tyndall+effect+solution&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a
https://www.google.com/search?q=tyndall+effect+solution&hl=en&client=firefox-a&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RpbUUPOlIOWU2QWTvIDwAw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1138&bih=468
___________________________________

On the internet, you can find many totally different explanations on how these silver colloids form from the electrolysis in water and what they are actually composed of. I've come to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what is happening, including myself and the people in the link that Scott gave. Everything I've seen so far is unsubstantiated theory.

To me, the important thing is that modtheworld44 has come up with an interesting process for stripping silver that appears to have some promise. It has some problems and it's not there yet. It doesn't "throw" into low current density areas and it's too slow. Also, what happens with the copper, if anything? At this point, experimentation is all important. If it can be made to work efficiently, who cares why it works? I know I don't. Sort of the forest and the trees type thing, if you concentrate on the theory instead of just making it work. If it works well, it could be a boon to everyone. This is water, folks. You can't get much safer or cheaper than that. Sure beats 180F, 95/5, H2SO4/HNO3.

One of the first things I would try is raising the pH with NaOH. I know of other stripping processes (using cyanide) where that works for stripping the silver and, at the same time, suppresses attack on the copper. Another is to increase the voltage. I can think of other things to try. These experiments could be done in 100-200ml beakers. In any experiment, though, the most important thing is to be able to test the results. Another standard rule in experimentation is to never change more than one thing (variable) at a time. If you change 2 or more things and it works, you don't know which change made it work.
______________________________

Something I've considered. Since modtheworld44 was able to melt that black stuff and end up with silver BBs, I would think the black stuff would have to be either silver metal or silver oxide. Silver oxide is a possibility since oxygen is produced at the anode and silver oxide is easily reducible to metal with heat. Also, some of the internet explanations suggest this mechanism. As far as the end results are concerned, though, it makes no difference. The proof is in the pudding.

GSP

I agree on all accounts.There is no better economical solution as far as I can tell.What makes it so great is NO ACIDS unless you want to try and clean up the powders.I don't use any because I'm going to refine the silver further anyways once its melted.which again saves on acid.So all around its a WIN,WIN cell.
Yeah I think your right about the silver oxide ,But also I think geo could be right about there being chlorides.The reason being that when you do a melt very small trace amounts seem to incinerate into thin air. I'll see if I can get it on video.My reason for the stirring was simple . make all particles come in contact with Cathode to force change.
Well going to get kids Christmas layaway and when I get back will start making more videos.
THANKS for your great support and in the end we'll all have one great cell.



modtheworld44

 

[MysticColby]

yeah, this will be my first thing to try when I collect enough silver plated stuff to start reclaming.
modtheworld mentioned pregnant cell, implying that after a while you have to harvest it. Aside from the beaker filling up with silver powder, I'm not sure why this would be the case. Along these lines, I'd say you should be careful not to have your anode and cathode touch the silver on the beaker bottom (short circuit).
Is this one of those cases where higher voltage and amperage = faster deplating? In most cells, you have to be within a narrow range of voltages, but I'm not so sure that applies here.