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Hot concentrated sulfuric will dissolve silver.

Silver plate can be de-plated as anode in a cell with heated concentrated sulfuric acid.

Silver as an anode will lose electrons (oxidation basically dissolves into solution) in dilute room temperature sulfuric solution.

I do not see why silver would not dissolve as anode in the concentrated sulfuric cell at room temperature (I am puzzled here), although I see where it would be held in acid as silver ions if it was oxidized by the electicity.
It seems to me that heat would be the only difference, normally heat just speeds the reaction that may take a long period of time to accomplish (still puzzled).
 
Hi Butcher, this question on the sliver came up when I was stripping the gold plated material I have. I found that a few of the pieces was gold plated over sterling silver. Someone mentioned that the silver will effect the process of the sulphuric cell by turning it black and the electrolyte not wanting to settle, which I am experiencing. I sure hope not, I am not after the silver, I am after the gold powder on the bottom of the dish. To recover this gold, (I hope) powder, with very little silver I hope, I would decant filter a couple of times. Then treat with HCL/Cl. To get the gold in suspension then drop the gold. Now if there is a lot of sliver in there, more than anticipated is that going to cause me trouble in trying to recover (droping) the gold? Just focus on the gold and participate the silver out after dropping the gold? NOTE!, there were only maybe 4 pieces that was sterling under goldplated and I stopped the reaction when the gold was stripped and I seen the piece was still fizzing. I Kept looking at the items that I was deplating. When they turned silver and didn't stop fizzing I would take them out immediately and test them to verify they were sterling. So, I am sure this isn't the first time someone has ran into this problem. I am just trying to find a solution before I have a problem with the silver being in the Sulphuric Solution if in fact some did get in there? Just add the HCL/CL drop the gold and save the solution to recover the silver out of when I have enough to mess with. Or drop the gold, then run the gold through a AR process. Butcher, I am tired and everything is running together tonight. I got to call it quits for today. Thank you Butcher for your help, as always. A good nights sleep will make every thing clearer tomorrow. I hope this post makes sense tomorrow. Thanks Butcher, Oneal58

butcher said:
Hot concentrated sulfuric will dissolve silver.

Silver plate can be de-plated as anode in a cell with heated concentrated sulfuric acid.

Silver as an anode will lose electrons (oxidation basically dissolves into solution) in dilute room temperature sulfuric solution.

I do not see why silver would not dissolve as anode in the concentrated sulfuric cell at room temperature (I am puzzled here), although I see where it would be held in acid as silver ions if it was oxidized by the electicity.
It seems to me that heat would be the only difference, normally heat just speeds the reaction that may take a long period of time to accomplish (still puzzled).
 
when you dissolve the powder in hcl/cl gold will stay in the solution and any silver dissolved will precipitate back out as silver chloride.after you dissolve all the powder filter through a couple coffee filters.the silver shouldnt be a problem.remember that gold and silver will not stay in the same solution except for trace amounts and i think cyanide,unsure about that though.
 
Hi Geo, thanks. When I filter a couple of times I save the filters in a seperate container to process the silver after I have accumulated enough to mess with? I have some sterling silver that I am going to refine by way of Nitric. If I wash these filters good and distill can I add this to my silver refine or will I be contaminating my silver batch? I am sure there is probably a little copper, solder, maybe some nickel and tin that will be in there. What to do with it? Thanks, Oneal

Geo said:
when you dissolve the powder in hcl/cl gold will stay in the solution and any silver dissolved will precipitate back out as silver chloride.after you dissolve all the powder filter through a couple coffee filters.the silver shouldnt be a problem.remember that gold and silver will not stay in the same solution except for trace amounts and i think cyanide,unsure about that though.
 
actually the base metals isnt the problem with adding this to your sterling, its the fact that silver chloride isnt elemental silver (silver metal) it needs to be reduced to obtain the silver metal.check out lazersteves videos on his website concerning silver chloride to begin with at www.goldrecovery.us follow the login instructions and watch the free videos.after you have reduced the AgCl to elemental form you can add that to your sterling if you want to but if done properly it should be pure enough for a silver cell.
 
Hi everyone,
Well, I decanted today out of the gold stripping sulphuric cell I had been stripping into for 5 days with about that same amount of settling. I could not find any fiberglass so I used toilet tissue to plug the glass funnel. I had been warned by Phil not to do this.
I plugged the filter funnel and started pouring. The filter filled up quickly and I stoped. Eventually I saw that it was starting to filter and then all the contents in the filter broke through the toilet paper as I had been warned by phil. Then the toilet paper followed the black sulphuric down into the beaker. I put another plug in and tried again. Thinking I did not pack the toilet paper tight enough. The same thing happened again. Talk about hard headed, but I was determined to see the bottom of that cell. So I continued to pour untill I could see that I did have powder in the bottom of the bowl. I tried to pour off as much sulphuric as I could and then the powdered mud slipped and fell into the funnel and went into the cell. Out of a knee jerk reflex I made the situation even worse. Most of the black powder went into the filter and down into the 1000ml beaker.
Now I have stirred up everything again and now I have toilet paper mixed in with the sulphuric.
I looked at the cell, very little black powder was left. I took a deep breath and washed the rest into the beaker. So now I am right back where I started and have toilet paper in the mix.

Question-1- I did not put Glycerine into the sulphuric, I finally got my computer to show Lazersteve's videos and seen he put glycerine in his sulphuric. Was this the mistake I made and can it be corrected?
Question-2-If I do not plan to revisit the stripping cell again is there a way I can recover the gold out of the sulphuric without worring about saving the sulhuric? Thus saving time, or just wait again.
Question-3- Can I carefully dilute the sulphuric with water so the gold will settle quicker by changing the viscosity?
Question-4-What am I going to do about two funnels full of toilet paper in my electrolyte?

Thanks to anyone for their help. I feel beaten tonight but I still have my eyes on the prize.
Depressed but not beaten.
Thanks, Oneal58
 
1 you don't need the glycerine in the cell it serves no purpose.
2 And 3 yes you can dilute the sulphuric BUT you must add the sulphuric to water not the other way round, the dilute solution can be used to remove lead from later processing.
4 When you have recovered your powders and toilet paper dry and then incinerate before further treatments.
 
If you used concentrated sulfuric acid the toilet paper will be magically gone in the morning. Concentrated sulfuric will digest organics, this is why Phil told you not to use it.
 
(1).glycerin is not needed.the video is 7 years old and steve hasn't updated it.

(2).leave everything in the beaker undisturbed for a few days.the liquid will become transparent,not clear but you can see light through it.decant slowly or syphon down close to the powder and stop.

(3).you can carefully dilute the sulfuric with 1 part sulfuric to 3 parts tap water.remember,"first the water and then the acid,otherwise it wont be placid".this will speed it up a fraction but unnecessary.

(4).after you have given it a few days the fibers of the toilet paper will be no more.sulfuric acid reacts to organics in a very aggressive manner.thats why it is so dangerous to you and me.
 
Oneal58:

Hello, I was trying to think back when I did my sulfuric acid cell clean out.

I bought a package of fiberglass body filler material from advance auto and used it to try to filter the gold powder from the sulfuric acid in the deplating cell.

I packed it into a buchner type funnel (big mistake) and poured the electrolyte in.

The experiment failed miserably, all the gold and acid went right on through with no filtering effect at all.

Defeated, I took a 2 liter pyrex beaker and filled it with 1000 ml distilled water (tap water would have probably worked).

Then I carefully poured the concentrated sulfuric acid electrolyte from the failed filtering experiment into the 2 liter beaker half full of distilled water - being careful not to over-heat.

I even used a plastic kitchen spatula to scrape all the black from the bottom of the cell into the 2 liter beaker half full of distilled water.

Once most of the acid was removed from the cell with the spatula, I actually was able to rinse it with distilled water into the 2 liter beaker.

There was some heat generated but I can't remember how much. I would not use a non-heat risistant glass container for doing this.

I vaguely recall using a second 1000 ml beaker half full of distilled water because I ran out of capacity with the first 2000 ml beaker.

Once I had the acid diluted, I allowed it to settle.

Once settled, I poured off the clear liquid from both beakers, ensuring none of the black power escaped during the pour.

Then I refilled each with distilled water and settled again. I repeated this several times

I think I kept rinsing until I could not smell the sulfuric acid in the black powder any longer.

I remeber thinking that this was too much time & effort for such a small amount of gold. This is probably why I have not used the cell since then.

Once I had the black powder as clean as I could get it, I made some aqua regia and dissloved the black powder, added a few drops of sulfuric to precipitate any lead, filtered as usual and dropped the gold.

I think I got about 2 grams of gold after using the cell for about 20 hours. It was not a very pretty piece as there was still some contamination that was left in the black powder. Today I would use more care in processing the black powder.

As I stated before, I believed that the amount of gold retrieved was not worth the effort to me, especially since I had already produced a bar or two of fine gold from karat scrap.

But this line of thinking has now changed. I am going to get the sulfuric acid deplating cell set up again and start using it - this post has reinvigorated my desire for processing this type of scrap!

Also - Oneal58, you said you had some copperas. Where did you say that you found it?

Hope this is helpful - kadriver
 
Kadriver

you can make your own copperas by digesting some soft steel in warm-hot sulfuric acid.i guess theres no need to tell you to be careful but, be careful when working with hot sulhuric acid. your copperas will be as pure as the material that you started with.make sure the steel is clean with no other metal on it and make sure to use new diluted sulfuric acid(new battery acid should work ok,do not concentrate).if you start with 400 ml of acid digest all the steel that the acid will hold.then evaporate the acid down and when you reach a quarter of the volume you started will bright blue crystals will start forming,this will be your copperas.continue evaporating till the solution is nearly dry, then remove from the heat and allow to cool.removed whats left of the solution and rinse your crystals in cold water through a few rinses and filter.allow the crystals to dry and store in new concentrated sulfuric acid (just enough to keep the crystals wet).
 
Thank Geo, I appreciate your post. I will get there yet. Will post a picture of my returns. Thank you for answering my post.
Oneal58

Geo said:
(1).glycerin is not needed.the video is 7 years old and steve hasn't updated it.

(2).leave everything in the beaker undisturbed for a few days.the liquid will become transparent,not clear but you can see light through it.decant slowly or syphon down close to the powder and stop.

(3).you can carefully dilute the sulfuric with 1 part sulfuric to 3 parts tap water.remember,"first the water and then the acid,otherwise it wont be placid".this will speed it up a fraction but unnecessary.

(4).after you have given it a few days the fibers of the toilet paper will be no more.sulfuric acid reacts to organics in a very aggressive manner.thats why it is so dangerous to you and me.
 
Thanks Oz, that's good news. Thank you for posting.
Oneal58
Oz said:
If you used concentrated sulfuric acid the toilet paper will be magically gone in the morning. Concentrated sulfuric will digest organics, this is why Phil told you not to use it.
 
Thank you nickvc for your post. I appreciate your help. It's good to find out that the toilet paper problem will just be a bad dream. Appreciate your help.
Oneal58

nickvc said:
1 you don't need the glycerine in the cell it serves no purpose.
2 And 3 yes you can dilute the sulphuric BUT you must add the sulphuric to water not the other way round, the dilute solution can be used to remove lead from later processing.
4 When you have recovered your powders and toilet paper dry and then incinerate before further treatments.
 
Thanks Kadriver, when you asked where I found the copperas at in your earlier post I thought you may need or want some. I didn't see this later post. But if you want any just let me know. If I find the copperas are old when I open the bag, I will use this method below you gave me. I am starting on the gold filled items today. I am going to dilute my electrolyte from the cell first and let it be settling. I am going to use Harolds instructions he gave me. Use diluted Nitric to seperate the foils of gold off the gold filled items.
1-Kadriver when he says diluted will it be 50/50 Nitric/Water with the strength of the Nitric I got from you?
2-Kadriver you also mentioned in an old post you found Stump Out at HD. That the Stump Out was Metabisulfite, did I read that wrong? I went to HD the other day and the product they had called (stump out) had Potassium Nitrate in it?
Thanks Kadriver,
Oneal58

Geo said:
Kadriver

you can make your own copperas by digesting some soft steel in warm-hot sulfuric acid.i guess theres no need to tell you to be careful but, be careful when working with hot sulhuric acid. your copperas will be as pure as the material that you started with.make sure the steel is clean with no other metal on it and make sure to use new diluted sulfuric acid(new battery acid should work ok,do not concentrate).if you start with 400 ml of acid digest all the steel that the acid will hold.then evaporate the acid down and when you reach a quarter of the volume you started will bright blue crystals will start forming,this will be your copperas.continue evaporating till the solution is nearly dry, then remove from the heat and allow to cool.removed whats left of the solution and rinse your crystals in cold water through a few rinses and filter.allow the crystals to dry and store in new concentrated sulfuric acid (just enough to keep the crystals wet).
 
Oneal58 said:
Hi qst42know,
I did incinerate from above down onto the material. I did notice a variation in the color of the plating between the non-ferrous metals and the ferrous metals. I just assumed it had something to do with the karat of the plating? This plating could have very well been brass plating. Then on top of that I incinerated from above?

I don't want to contradict anything you have been told and I am quite a bit behind in this conversation. The point I was attempting to make is this, thin gold plate is often applied over a shiny coat of nickel and then coated in just enough gold to give it the right color, to this perhaps a dip in lacquer to make the soft gold last a while.

Migration of gold is well known and I don't dispute the possibility that some of your missing gold disappeared in that way.

While incinerating thinly plated material from above it is also possible that you oxidized the nickel undercoat and shed some of what little gold that was there as a dust blown away by your torch.

In my monitor the photo of your melting dish interior has a slight pink color to it. That is why I suspect some losses due to it being blown away.

[Is that how the dish appears in real life, pink on the inside?]

The point I was trying to make is this, heat from below, and not in a refractory melting dish may be less prone to losses than a windy torch from above.

When I incinerate even gold filled items there is always some dusty shed material that I am careful to include in the digestion.
 
Hi qst42know, yes there is a slight pink hue to the melting dish in places. I believe locked into the Borax as well. I have since started heating from below to heat the gold plated items as per your first post. I see now that with high heat directly onto the gold plated items will cause the items to lose their plating.
Unless the gold has migrated into the metal as Harold said could be happening. Which could be very possible because I put a lot of heat to it. But I don't plan on trying to get at this gold by melting all that heavy metal in the necklaces to get the little bit of plating that could be locked within the metal. Just isn't worth the trouble/gas/acid, Etc;. I heat from the bottom now just enough to burn off the dirt, laquer, Etc;. I then stop, I got really heavy handed the first couple of burns with the torch which could also have played a part.
Thanks qust42know,
Oneal58
qst42know said:
Oneal58 said:
Hi qst42know,
I did incinerate from above down onto the material. I did notice a variation in the color of the plating between the non-ferrous metals and the ferrous metals. I just assumed it had something to do with the karat of the plating? This plating could have very well been brass plating. Then on top of that I incinerated from above?

I don't want to contradict anything you have been told and I am quite a bit behind in this conversation. The point I was attempting to make is this, thin gold plate is often applied over a shiny coat of nickel and then coated in just enough gold to give it the right color, to this perhaps a dip in lacquer to make the soft gold last a while.

Migration of gold is well known and I don't dispute the possibility that some of your missing gold disappeared in that way.

While incinerating thinly plated material from above it is also possible that you oxidized the nickel undercoat and shed some of what little gold that was there as a dust blown away by your torch.

In my monitor the photo of your melting dish interior has a slight pink color to it. That is why I suspect some losses due to it being blown away.

[Is that how the dish appears in real life, pink on the inside?]

The point I was trying to make is this, heat from below, and not in a refractory melting dish may be less prone to losses than a windy torch from above.

When I incinerate even gold filled items there is always some dusty shed material that I am careful to include in the digestion.
 
Making ferrous sulfate (FeSO4), also called copperas or iron sulfate.

Copperas is green in solution or in crystal form.

Ferrous sulfate is good to use to precipitate gold from acidic solutions.
2AuCl3 + 6FeSO4 à 2Au (s) + 2Fe2(SO4)3 +Fe2Cl4

Iron sulfate will also precipitate platinum from boiling hot solution if pH 7.

FeSo4 crystal can be used to detect dissolved gold in solutions in the spot plate,
This is useful also if the gold is in solution with another precious metal, we can use the copperas crystal to test for gold in one dish of spot plate (brown ring) this precipitates the gold and remaining solution moved to another dish in spot plate and tested for other precious metal.

Copperas crystals (green) these crystals will oxidize easily if not stored properly, dry (acid low) and exposed to air (turning brown) the brown crystals will not precipitate gold, most all copperas I have found in garden centers has oxidized and is useless for our needs here.

The green copperas crystals, when made should be kept fresh in storing, I will keep them wet, few drops of sulfuric acid to keep them acidic, store in air tight plastic container (screw on plastic lid with seal an old stump remover bottle is what I use), they have a very long shelf life this way.

It is as easy to make a large batch of ferrous sulfate, as it is to make a small batch of copperas.

You need as pure iron as you can get (not steel), soft Iron laminates from old transformers, or electric motors, is what I use.

An old transformer cut iron laminate welds (hacksaw or angle grinder Etcetera), remove copper winding an save (to rewind another transformer, old motor, use as wire, or throw in your copper scrap metal pile), separate the iron laminates, cut into small pieces (with tin snip’s), use torch to burn off shellac and oils, add this Iron to dilute sulfuric acid (10% H2SO4), (the dilute acid is best as iron can passivate (not dissolve) in strong sulfuric acid), you can dilute battery acid (one part 32% battery acid to two parts water), or dilute the drain cleaner in water.

:shock: Always add the concentrated sulfuric acid to water slowly watching the temperature rise from reaction).
Never add water to concentrated sulfuric acid it will boil out and splash all over you burning you severely or blinding you} :cry:

The iron will dissolve slowly in cold solution, heating will speed the reaction, you can boil this solution of iron metal and dilute sulfuric acid because the sulfuric acid has such a high boiling point so gases evolved are mainly just water in fumes.
I use a Pyrex Mr. coffee pot, or white corning ware casserole dish on solid iron metal burner electric hot plate.

After as much iron as will dissolve (dissolves into the concentrating acid) lower temperature and pour this green solution into another jar, letting un-dissolved iron metal and carbon settle well.

Filter solution back into evaporating dish and boil down to crystals, when you get a few inches of crystals cool solution somewhat then pour into a clean jar let cool more and crystals settle, decant liquid back into boiling vessel and make more crystals, this concentrated solution can be used also.

For storing crystals see information above.


Oneal, you should not use flux or borax when you incenerate the materials, that and what Quest for to know has stated can be reason for loss of thin plating.
 
butcher said:
Making ferrous sulfate (FeSO4), also called copperas or iron sulfate.

Copperas is green in solution or in crystal form.

Ferrous sulfate is good to use to precipitate gold from acidic solutions.
2AuCl3 + 6FeSO4 à 2Au (s) + 2Fe2(SO4)3 +Fe2Cl4

Iron sulfate will also precipitate platinum from boiling hot solution if pH 7.

FeSo4 crystal can be used to detect dissolved gold in solutions in the spot plate,
This is useful also if the gold is in solution with another precious metal, we can use the copperas crystal to test for gold in one dish of spot plate (brown ring) this precipitates the gold and remaining solution moved to another dish in spot plate and tested for other precious metal.

Copperas crystals (green) these crystals will oxidize easily if not stored properly, dry (acid low) and exposed to air (turning brown) the brown crystals will not precipitate gold, most all copperas I have found in garden centers has oxidized and is useless for our needs here.

The green copperas crystals, when made should be kept fresh in storing, I will keep them wet, few drops of sulfuric acid to keep them acidic, store in air tight plastic container (screw on plastic lid with seal an old stump remover bottle is what I use), they have a very long shelf life this way.

It is as easy to make a large batch of ferrous sulfate, as it is to make a small batch of copperas.

You need as pure iron as you can get (not steel), soft Iron laminates from old transformers, or electric motors, is what I use.

An old transformer cut iron laminate welds (hacksaw or angle grinder Etcetera), remove copper winding an save (to rewind another transformer, old motor, use as wire, or throw in your copper scrap metal pile), separate the iron laminates, cut into small pieces (with tin snip’s), use torch to burn off shellac and oils, add this Iron to dilute sulfuric acid (10% H2SO4), (the dilute acid is best as iron can passivate (not dissolve) in strong sulfuric acid), you can dilute battery acid (one part 32% battery acid to two parts water), or dilute the drain cleaner in water.

:shock: Always add the concentrated sulfuric acid to water slowly watching the temperature rise from reaction).
Never add water to concentrated sulfuric acid it will boil out and splash all over you burning you severely or blinding you} :cry:

The iron will dissolve slowly in cold solution, heating will speed the reaction, you can boil this solution of iron metal and dilute sulfuric acid because the sulfuric acid has such a high boiling point so gases evolved are mainly just water in fumes.
I use a Pyrex Mr. coffee pot, or white corning ware casserole dish on solid iron metal burner electric hot plate.

After as much iron as will dissolve (dissolves into the concentrating acid) lower temperature and pour this green solution into another jar, letting un-dissolved iron metal and carbon settle well.

Filter solution back into evaporating dish and boil down to crystals, when you get a few inches of crystals cool solution somewhat then pour into a clean jar let cool more and crystals settle, decant liquid back into boiling vessel and make more crystals, this concentrated solution can be used also.

i dont mind being corrected and really appreciate someone taking the time to point out any errors i may make in my comments as im still learning.the laminates your referring to can not be pure iron or even close to it.pure iron is a crystal and does not bend easily without breaking such as castiron.the soft laminates from transformers is an alloy that can be searched on the web.(i did) so i wouldnt look foolish saying this but can contain as little as 85% iron with Ni or Co these can be bent double and be flexed many times before breaking,iron will not stand up to these stresses.

the crystals i spoke of look more like aqua-marine but according to wiki copperas crystals are green if pure.
 
Thanks Butcher, this information will come in good. I appreciate your answer. I have a couple of questions, again.
Following Harolds advice I put my gold filled items into a 500ml flask and covered with 150 ml of water. I poured out 150ml of Nitric into a beaker. I then slowly started adding my Nitric I got from Kadriver. I put a small amount of Nitric into the beaker and reaction started. The Nitric and water turned a green color at first. When the reaction seemed to be slowing I added approx. another 75 ml of Nitric. The reaction was liken to a volcano, it spewed for what seemed like a couple of minutes. It finally calmed down enough I could approach the flask again. The flask was very hot and venting the mustard colored gas. I left it alone for a while. I went back to it after 5 minutes or so. It had calmed down. I then added the remaining 50 ml of Nitric Acid. I back away, a good distance and watched. It did not boil over again.
Question-1- Is it better to use a beaker or a flask when doing this type work?
Question 2- Is it better to cover the beaker or flask after adding the Nitric?
Question 3- I know Harold says to keep adding Nitric untill all base metals have been dissolved. DO I dilute the Nitric to keep it 50/50 or just keep adding concentrated Nitric to the Flask. This of course will be increasing the strength of the Nitric in the Flask.
Question 4-What did I do wrong to get the boil over, I thought I was being careful to avoid a boil over? Is this something you have to develope a feel for?
Question 5- Can I leave everything just the way it is overnight and do I cover it?
Question 6- Can I take the Nitric inside a building and it be OK to go into that building the next moring?
Question 7- Am I missing something so far?
 
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