Taking a great idea and applying modern techniques

[g_axelsson]

Just like Kurt I haven't responded since I don't have any experience with cyanide yet. But I'm reading every post and hope I will have the opportunity to build my own cell soon.

For those without access to a 3D-printer, there are many "fab-labs", "maker spaces" or "hacker spaces" where the general public is welcome to learn and use this type of equipment.

Any tips on where to find a suitable carbon felt for Europeans?

Göran

 

[nickvc]

One point I didn't stress is that this cell is not just for use in cyanide processes but with any solution containing metals, precious or otherwise and it has the advantage of making the solutions to a certain extent reusable this cutting down on waste and costs.

 

[kurtak]

Looks a lot to me like a carbon version of that gold bug system.

I always used steel wool to do this process, not carbon felt.

Where do you get the felt state side and what is the solution concentration you operate at (before/after the felt, in g/L CN- and Au)?

Lou

per the underlined - In another thread you had posted that & then said you used sulfuric to dissolve away the steel (iron) --- I "assume" you are doing this with a flow through cell as well such as the cell being discussed here

I ask because I am about to make my first venture into CN leaching which means my recovery options (once I have my gold in solution) are zinc cementing, carbon loading (CIL) or electro winning & as best as I can tell the electro winning is the better of the three options

However - I don't currently have everything I need to set up the "flow though" cell - so between time to order needed components (& wait the arrival) & then time to build the flow through cell it puts the flow through cell out of question for the current batch of pins I will be doing

So - my real question is - can I run the cell (winning) without the need for solution to flow through the cathode - in other words a simple tank to hold the solution with an inert anode (high density carbon) & cathode(s) for the gold to plate to ?

If so - then my question is what would be my best option for my cathode(s) - I have the "high" density carbon for my anode - but - for the cathode(s) would the steel wool still be a good option - or could carbon be used for both anode & cathode - or a titanium plate (I have one) or sheet(s) of SS

Edit to add; - I know you can set up a winning cell as a simple tank (no flow through) with acidic solution such as copper nitrate - just not sure if &/or how well it would work with a CN (alkali) solution

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

One point I didn't stress is that this cell is not just for use in cyanide processes but with any solution containing metals, precious or otherwise and it has the advantage of making the solutions to a certain extent reusable this cutting down on waste and costs.

You beat me to it Nick - that was going to be my next post :mrgreen:

This cell is actually ideal for those that have a hard time &/or have to pay a high price for their nitric

It would allow them to use nitric for processing silver - cement the silver with copper - then win the copper back - & "reuse" the nitric for the next batch of silver

My point being that a lot of members don't do silver because they have to pay such a high price for very small amounts of nitric - so they reserve there nitric for AR &/or don't use nitric at all (so don't do silver) & instead go with poor mans AR &/or HCl/Cl to do their gold

This cell could get them in the game with silver as they would be able to reuse that high price nitric multiple times

Kurt

 

[anachronism]

Hi!
The cell caught my interest the moment Deano informed about it.

It's use seem to be mostly "limited by imagination" though especially well suited for constant/long lasting leeching which benefits from low concentrations of leech liquor and/or dissolved metals.
My reluctance to comment so far has been that I haven't come to a point where I have accumulated any information to share :wink: In fact my graphite electrode disappeared on route from Beijing to Europe and my felt has just arrived in town.
I do not have access to a 3D printer as Jon has so my initial construction will not be as nice as his.

You've grasped the point perfectly Ygg. The possibilities and applications are almost endless.

Kurt and Ygg. I already have 4 people who want prototypes to work with actively so they can provide feedback in the beta testing which will lead to improvements/additions. If you both are happy to use them and be part of that program then adding a couple more delivery addresses really makes very little difference. The cells will have anodes and cathode material with them so you only need the peristaltic pump and your own pipework and electrical circuit to make them operational.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I'd be very honored to be a part of such a test, but I'm not set up to start yet.
It'll be a couple of months until I'm ready.
In light of this, it would be more sensible to give someone that is more prepared a chance. :wink:

I have planned to do a few test runs to streamline the setup prior to going "live".
By the way the first process I'm planning to test it on, will be a long lasting HCl/Cl leech of cats.
Next will be AR on same. This way I will be able to compare.
I have two identical cats from the same car
By the way do anyone know if it is anything to gain by reintroducing the NoX gases from AR into the leech liquor by peristaltic pumps? Maybe with some extra H2O2 into it?

In time I may or may not proceed to CN in the way of thiocyanat or real CN on Gold pins and fingers.
I'm not very confident to take the plunge into the cyanide territory yet.

Edited for clarity

 

[nickvc]

I'd be very honored to be a part of such a test, but I'm not set up to start yet.
It'll be a couple of months until I'm ready.
In light of this, it would be more sensible to give someone that is more prepared a chance. :wink:

I have planned to do a few test runs to streamline the setup prior to going "live".
By the way the first process I'm planning to test it on, will be a long lasting HCl/Cl leech of cats.
Next will be AR on same. This way I will be able to compare.
I have two identical cats from the same car
By the way do anyone know if it is anything to gain by reintroducing the NoX gases from AR into the leech liquor by peristaltic pumps? Maybe with some extra H2O2 into it?

In time I may or may not proceed to CN in the way of thiocyanat or real CN on Gold pins and fingers.
I'm not very confident to take the plunge into the cyanide territory yet.

Edited for clarity

Can I say you are wasting your time and money trying to wet refine cats unless they are free.
The other problem is you are left with a very toxic waste as it contains PGM salts which are highly toxic, not to say lethal, from the residues after leaching as it's virtually impossible to remove all the acids.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Duly noted Nick.
Lets get back to topic here please.
This thread deserves to be kept as clean as possible, sorry about the distraction I opened up to in my last post.

 

[patnor1011]

I cant wait to see that cell working. I do have enough material to feed that baby for a long time. :lol:

 

[kurtak]

Kurt and Ygg. I already have 4 people who want prototypes to work with actively so they can provide feedback in the beta testing which will lead to improvements/additions. If you both are happy to use them and be part of that program then adding a couple more delivery addresses really makes very little difference. The cells will have anodes and cathode material with them so you only need the peristaltic pump and your own pipework and electrical circuit to make them operational.

:shock: WOW Jon - that is one heck of an offer - but like Yggdrasil in honesty I to will turn your offer down

The reason for that is that right now I am actually scaling back on the amount of refining I am doing - I am not quitting - just scaling back - sort of regrouping at this time

The reason for that is as you know I have been taking care of my mom & dad - mom is now gone & dad is 93 & is not doing so well - when he is gone it is may intent to sell my place here in Wisconsin & move back out to the pacific northwest - so I am currently really spending most of my time cleaning up & doing repairs on the property so the property can be more ready for sale in the short term (after dad is gone) rather then waiting & dealing with the clean up & repairs after he is gone

So I have limited my refining to a few select costumers - so though I am still refining IMO its not steady enough to honestly justify taking you up on your "very" generous offer

But THANK YOU very much for making me that offer Jon :!: --- it was truly a :G offer

Kurt

 

[anachronism]

No worries gents. Call it a rain check as you say in the US.

 

[autumnwillow]

Is the concept of this process like an electrowinning cell with a circulating solution?

Having a cyclyndrical vessel's purpose is more surface area?
Circulating the liquid makes sure that most of the metals are removed from the solution?

That this process can be used for chloride/sulfuric wastes like what the stock pot contains? If so then this is better than copper cementation and/or iron cementation as there is no need to add any more metals to the waste solution assuming that it can take out metals the same as cementation does. It was also noted at Deano's thread that chlorine gas will be produced when this method is done on wastes.

As for cyanide, will this system get a better recovery rate than zinc cementation? Although this system is more economical for those who usually run the same batch of materials they can keep on reusing the cyanide solution. I do not think a refiner like me who usually process different types of materials everyday will have this device as useful yet. Correct me if I am wrong though.

I do believe that electrowinning will never get 99% of the metals out of the solution, but having the solution re-circulated a lot of times will get up to what %?

Or do I have the wrong idea about this method? Heh

 

[autumnwillow]

Another thing that I do not understand is that in electrolysis the anode produces oxygen which is the oxidizer for a CN leach and since this is circulating solution wouldn't that dissolve the metals in the cathode? Hence the CN solution is actually destroyed in this process?

 

[nickvc]

The cell will strip all metals from any solution if it's run correctly and allow for the solution to be reused or make it safe for neutralisation and disposal, within the legal limits set by most agencies.
With cyanide solutions you need to add extra chemical to reuse the solution but you still only have one solution not dozens so the waste stream is reduced to a much more easily treated amount.
You are correct about acid solutions but you can simply pump the gases through water to create HCl which can then be reused for processing more material.
With cyanide yes it will give better results than zinc if you continually run your solution through the cell, all you need to do to recover your gold is to remove the felt, rinse well with water and dissolve the values in acid, the felt can the be rinsed again ready to be reused.without access to assaying you may need to put the solution through the cell again and test to check if you have any more values plating out before stripping more material.
The zinc cementation method works but again without assays it's hard to be sure all the values are out of solution which can be a real pain if you are running unknown yielding materials, one trick I used was to add small pieces of aluminium foil to the solution after dropping the gold, if it started to turn slightly brown you still had gold in your solution.
From memory of the last such cell I saw tested it can remove metals down to parts per million, but perhaps Deano can provide better information on this cell.

 

[autumnwillow]

I'll build one if ever I get some free time. I'm still having trouble with wastes as I have no supplier of floc agents and filtering is very slow due to iron hydroxides.

Not sure why anachroism used a 3d printed model?
I believe this can be done cheaply with PVC pipes, pumps and a rectifier. Shouldn't cost more than $300.

 

[anachronism]

Not sure why anachroism used a 3d printed model?
I believe this can be done cheaply with PVC pipes, pumps and a rectifier. Shouldn't cost more than $300.

You're quite right it could be done cheaply. In fact I have already done it that way as the photos of my pipe built model show. To answer your question: I did it with a 3D printer because I no longer wanted to "make do." I wanted to develop something properly and professionally that made my life easier and allowed me to run good sized batches without having to jury rig equipment. I also wanted to see how far I could take the simply brilliant concept that Dean gave us, and the pvc pipe and drain pipe method doesn't do it justice.

A picture tells a thousand words, so here is the first prototype fully printed below guys. This is in the correct material and at the correct detail. That is all printed in one piece with the pipework printed internally. The rough concept prints in ABS are to the left to add context.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi Jon.
Impressive smoothness as far as I can see. What material is it, if I may ask?
The difference between the prototype and end product is because of increased print resolution alone or material as well?
Are the pipe inside for the overflow?
It seems that the felt is supposed to be in between the two perforated screens.
Which thickness are you using?

Picture of the end cap as well please :wink:

 

[anachronism]

Hi Jon.
Impressive smoothness as far as I can see. What material is it, if I may ask?

Sure, the material is Polypropylene. It's got the right mix of chemical resistances and material properties for the task. Printing it is interesting but we've worked that part out properly now.

The difference between the prototype and end product is because of increased print resolution alone or material as well?

Yes to both and in addition a number of dimensional changes and improvements over the original.

Are the pipe inside for the overflow?

Yes the overflow is the pipe you can see on the picture. Below the height of the outer cell wall.

It seems that the felt is supposed to be in between the two perforated screens.
Which thickness are you using?

Yes it goes between the two screens, and the felt I use is 10mm thick. You could use thinner felt and slightly thicker felt as well.


Picture of the end cap as well please :wink:

I will post one tomorrow. I'm just working on an amendment to the design this evening. It only takes a couple of hours to print that part.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks Jon!

Is it possible to split it into separate parts?
The walls from the bottom as well? For cleaning and repairs or what not?
Or is it supposed to be used and only rinsed now and then? (that might be sufficient though)

I love the way the development is going and would not be surprised if this ends up as one of our main tools.

Thanks for the effort, time and information Jon and Deano (or is it Dean)

 

[anachronism]

Thanks Jon!

Is it possible to split it into separate parts? No
The walls from the bottom as well? For cleaning and repairs or what not? Not needed, spray it out occasionally as required.
Or is it supposed to be used and only rinsed now and then? (that might be sufficient though)

I love the way the development is going and would not be surprised if this ends up as one of our main tools. Thanks I appreciate that.

Thanks for the effort, time and information Jon and Deano (or is it Dean) It's Dean, I just think he likes the "o" 'cos it makes him sound trendy