Taking a great idea and applying modern techniques

[nickvc]

Looking good mate we just need trials now to prove the concept and iron out any problems.

 

[anachronism]

Looking good mate we just need trials now to prove the concept and iron out any problems.

Hi Nick. Trials already done mate. It works. I have gold and silver recovered using the cell even from it's old form. I don't doubt Dean's knowledge and you have spoken to him yourself too. This is nothing more than Dean's cell on steroids if you will pardon the analogy.

 

[4metals]

So Deano becomes Dean, does that mean you become Jono, because it sounds trendy!

How do you plan to attatch the power suppy to the carbon felt? Is there a long strip of metal that fits in the groove where the felt starts and ends and locks in the felt and provides electrical contact?

I think this cell will work well on cyanide peroxide bombing solutions that jewelers generate. It should easily grab the gold and all metals in the alloy from the solution and in a second run destroy the cyanide. This solution poses problems for jewelers and some refiners who have a tough time treating cyanide waste.

 

[patnor1011]

Jono.... :lol:
Nearly choked on my coffee...
Good one 4metals.

 

[autumnwillow]

Very nice prints. I hope you could sell some cheaply for us! I'd love to use this on my wastes, its getting out of control.

 

[4metals]

CeraMaterials from Rickbb's link is about 30 miles from my house so I went for a visit. Impressive inventory, they can provide sheet or pre cut felt. I'm thinking 1cm thick?

 

[anachronism]

Thinner 4metals- go for 10mm

Edit. I am a complete muppet because I read your post as 1 inch..... of course 1cm is in fact 10mm.... *slaps himself soundly*

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Yep, that metric system is darned tricky!

Dave

 

[anachronism]

Very nice prints. I hope you could sell some cheaply for us! I'd love to use this on my wastes, its getting out of control.

Your post raises a very good question Autumn.

If you couple the cell with an effective leach tank system then you can kiss goodbye to AP. It won't be needed ever again. You can throw your sulphuric cell in the bin too whilst you're at it. No more acid/bleach processes. Processors and fingers become a one step recovery as do plated boards. You can suddenly process a whole host of material that would previously have been beyond the home refiner. Your income would shoot through the roof.

One initial cost layout, and a tiny ongoing cost for raw chemicals.

Then when you're done you can treat your waste in an environmentally friendly way. So my question would be what would you define as "cheaply" given what this would do for you?

It's a genuine and open question and I'd welcome your input and anyone else who fancies pitching in.

 

[anachronism]

Yep, that metric system is darned tricky!

Dave

I deserved that Dave.

 

[autumnwillow]

Pricing would be up to you but do not forget the discount for GRF members!

 

[anachronism]

Pricing would be up to you but do not forget the discount for GRF members!

Haha to be honest my main focus is getting a completely operational system. Ironing out the bumps in the road to develop a complete, self contained leach circuit is one of the most interesting things I have done in years. The most expensive single piece for the leach circuit arrived today. Do bear in mind that I am designing my own to operate on a semi-commercial/commercial scale and it can all be scaled down as well as up.

 

[kurtak]

Thanks for the update. With the cell you are printing, what is the area of the fabric that will be exposed to the leach solution. I know the actual surface area is exponentially higher than the physical piece of felt you use, but what size piece of felt will this accommodate? And what volume of solution will the entire cell contain when operating?

For the smaller cell approx 140 sq cm of cathode, and as mentioned before this scales depending upon the height of the cell used. Volume of liquid approx 310 cubic cm in this version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And in response 4metals posted

Wow, that i s less than 22 square inches of fabric and 11 fluid ounces of strip in the cell. (I converted these numbers to help those of us who live in countries that do not recognize the wisdom of the metric system)

That is one small cell considering you are talk about a cathode (felt) that is only about 5 inches square (= 25 sq. in.) & a pint is 16 oz.

This brings to mind a few questions I have based on that size cell

1) How many amps would be required on the current output side of a power supply to run that size cell ?

I ask because my power supply is only 10 amp - is that enough amps (its a high end power supply - not a cheap $100 ebay supply - but only 10 amp output)

2) What volt setting do you want to run at ?

3) Flow rate (for this "pint" size cell) again I understand that flow rate can be "somewhat" variable but I assume there is an "at least" but "not more then" rate for optimum deposit to the cathode ?

4) How much gold can you expect to load on the cathode before the cathode needs to be changed ? (I know that's going to be a variable of "at least" and "as much as")

Kurt

 

[4metals]

Operational question?

As the concentration of the dissolved metals in solution decreases do you see a substantial decrease in voltage or amperage? Or does the nature of the stripping solutions high conductivity keep the draw consistent? This question is more for those not inclined to run an AA to analyze the solutions with the hope that there is some kind of sign that the cell has stripped all of the metals.

And while you contemplate power questions for Kurt's question, does use for stripping waste of its metals followed by reversing polarity to destroy the strip solution require substantially more power than the normal operation to recover values?

 

[anachronism]

That is one small cell considering you are talk about a cathode (felt) that is only about 5 inches square (= 25 sq. in.) & a pint is 16 oz.

This brings to mind a few questions I have based on that size cell

1) How many amps would be required on the current output side of a power supply to run that size cell ?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question yet Kurt. The hand built one was a lot larger and that was taking around 15 amps in order to do anything meaningful and I know that Dean uses cells that take up to 200 amps albeit those are larger scale. This one is truly a miniaturised version and it's theoretcially possible that that it would run properly under 10 amps but I will only know when I have run the practical tests on it with various liquors.

I ask because my power supply is only 10 amp - is that enough amps (its a high end power supply - not a cheap $100 ebay supply - but only 10 amp output)

Remember that you need an over current as per my previous posts however as per the above I will be able to share the results shortly.

2) What volt setting do you want to run at ?

You don't run at a set voltage. You vary the voltage to increase the current flow until your cell is stripping properly. The required current depends upon the tenor of your liquor. The more metal in the solution, the more current. Since the whole system is designed to keep the leach tenor low and therefore maximise the leach rate the current needed should be lower than that used in a larger cell.

3) Flow rate (for this "pint" size cell) again I understand that flow rate can be "somewhat" variable but I assume there is an "at least" but "not more then" rate for optimum deposit to the cathode ?

The flow rate is determined by you and what you are trying to achieve. A slower flow rate from between the anode/cathode will be more likely to completely strip the metals than a fast flow rate. If you are merely looking to lower the tenor of your solution prior to passing it back to the leach then a faster flow rate can be used. To be succint- for me a slow flow rate is 1 litre per hour, and you can increase this many many times dependant upon the conditions you are working with and the desired end result.

4) How much gold can you expect to load on the cathode before the cathode needs to be changed ? (I know that's going to be a variable of "at least" and "as much as")

That's a pretty simple one Kurt, but change your thinking to "metal" not gold. Your cathode will ultimately clog up and that's your ultimate end point in the lifespan of the cathode within the cell. As you are drawing from the bottom of the cell, the cathode will load fastest at the bottom and work upwards. Ultimately you will have no liquor coming back out from the cell in the return pipe. Given that a Kg of gold is smaller than a packet of 20 smokes, and you can calculate the volume of the felt from the dimensions here then you are looking at a substantial amount even in this micro cell.

Kurt

 

[anachronism]

Operational question?

As the concentration of the dissolved metals in solution decreases do you see a substantial decrease in voltage or amperage? Or does the nature of the stripping solutions high conductivity keep the draw consistent? This question is more for those not inclined to run an AA to analyze the solutions with the hope that there is some kind of sign that the cell has stripped all of the metals.

Simple answer is Yes. As the tenor of your liquor decreases, the current flow reduces, assuming you have not altered the voltage.


And while you contemplate power questions for Kurt's question, does use for stripping waste of its metals followed by reversing polarity to destroy the strip solution require substantially more power than the normal operation to recover values?

I need to run more tests on that phase before giving a definite answer 4metals. The vast majority of the practical work to date has been on the strip circuit.

 

[4metals]

Clarification please?

You use the word "tenor" often. It is not a chemical term and as far as I know it refers to some fat guy singing in the choir. Maybe this is just a case of your side of the pond vs my side of the pond but for clarification could you choose a term more appropriate to electrochemistry?

 

[g_axelsson]

I've heard Deano mentioning tenor a lot, my understanding is that it means gold loading, how much gold there is in solution, concentration. I don't know if it is a mining term or if it is used in other areas.

Doing some more searches (Google scholar, online dictionaries and so on) I get a feeling that sometimes means "concentration at a steady state" but commonly is used just for concentration.

I should have done some reading on the forum, in http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23120&p=243183&hilit=tenor#p243183

Gold tenor is the concentration of the gold in the leach liquor. The higher the tenor the more gold is in a unit volume of liquor.

Göran

 

[4metals]

Any updates on the system? Perhaps some photo's of your new 3D printed cell in action.

 

[chuckgambale]

I hope to see you soon my friend. This one here is a game changer for the small guy.