A passive stripping system
- Thread starter Shecker
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Anonymous
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Ok..... I'm a n00b at this, I'm just starting doing some research and this is my first post here. I have a couple of questions. 1st, is there a consensus yet on if this method really works?
My buddy and I are thinking about playing with e-scrap refining as a hobby. Being an ex electronics/computer guy I have access to a lot of it and this seems like a simple way of doing it, with the ability to recover many other metals too (I'm interested in all metals, not just gold). I have all the time in the world, so even if it's a slow process, that's just fine with me.
2nd after you smelt down the remaining residue into a slug, where can it be sent to be further refined to separate it all out? Or is that doable at home too?
P.S. this is an amazing forum!
My buddy and I are thinking about playing with e-scrap refining as a hobby. Being an ex electronics/computer guy I have access to a lot of it and this seems like a simple way of doing it, with the ability to recover many other metals too (I'm interested in all metals, not just gold). I have all the time in the world, so even if it's a slow process, that's just fine with me.
2nd after you smelt down the remaining residue into a slug, where can it be sent to be further refined to separate it all out? Or is that doable at home too?
P.S. this is an amazing forum!
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think it would work good as described in the government article. I do not see how, just putting the scrap in copper sulfate solution would yield anything other than copper precipated from the solution by the base metals in the scrap, ie iron, aluminum, zinc.
From my reading of the process after the above is complete they incerate the solids with the precipated copper being used as a collector for the precious metals. After the incineration the cast anodes are run through a copper cell yielding salable copper and precious metal anode slimes to be further processed.
jim
From my reading of the process after the above is complete they incerate the solids with the precipated copper being used as a collector for the precious metals. After the incineration the cast anodes are run through a copper cell yielding salable copper and precious metal anode slimes to be further processed.
jim
newbies there are other methods for electronic scrap, and ore that are much simpler than copper sulfate, to recover your values.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi, I'm new to the forum and very limited in chemical knowledge, and since joining have just been trying swim in the sea of info up here! After reading this complete thread, I thought of a vid I had seen on electrorefining that might have to do with the disscussion here! Its not my video! It may be to simplistic, I dont know, but if anyone would like to take a look I would be interested in your thoughts!!! its at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXNrbMdyY8k
NobleMetalsRecovery
Well-known member
Thanks for the post. That's a very good video. The speaker does a very good job of clearing explaining the process.
eeTHr
Well-known member
So whatever happened to this experimental method?
Here's what I think I have read in this topic---
1. Shecker posts his passive stripping system, which has the benefit of disolving the PMs off eScrap and leaving the base metals.
2. There are several excited responses because that's exactly what many people have been looking for, as it eliminates the step of disolving the base metals first, then disolving the leftover PMs.
3. Those who have more understanding of chemistry observe that his method doesn't make sense, as to how it works, and doubt that actually is working.
4. Shecker has a dore bar at a refiners, but can't come up with the melting cost.
5. It is pointed out that it is highly unusual for a refinery to charge an up-front fee, and that doing so indicates that they have discovered it to be essentially worthless.
6. There are some discussions about a patent which uses a similar process.
7. A couple people try Shecker's method, and report that gold and silver disappear, while leaving the base metals.
8. A couple people report that just the opposite occurs, the gold flakes off, and base metals are disolved, but these people have altered Shecker's method by adding sulfuric acid.
9. Shecker's last post was in September of '08.
10. A month later he is asked a direct question about a chemical symbol he used, but he doesn't reply.
Where is Shecker---is he OK?
What about the results which were achieved by those who tested his actual method, versus the failures obtained by those who altered his formula?
If the reports from those who tested his actual method are accurate, then it looks to me like it worked.
Was Shecker mistaken in his assumption that he had disolved the PMs?
And were the testers from here on the forum mistaken also?
Was the whole thing a hoax?
Edit: OK, I got confused and screwed up part of this while my purpose was to try and straighten out what had been writen so far. Numbers one and two, above, have the facts backwards, as follows. They should indicate that Shecker said that this method disolves base metals out from under all PM plating, and allows the PMs to drop to the bottom. And that also some copper drops down. Still, it seems like a good way to narrow things down, especially if you wanted to do whole or chopped up boards (he smashes the chips first).
Here's what I think I have read in this topic---
1. Shecker posts his passive stripping system, which has the benefit of disolving the PMs off eScrap and leaving the base metals.
2. There are several excited responses because that's exactly what many people have been looking for, as it eliminates the step of disolving the base metals first, then disolving the leftover PMs.
3. Those who have more understanding of chemistry observe that his method doesn't make sense, as to how it works, and doubt that actually is working.
4. Shecker has a dore bar at a refiners, but can't come up with the melting cost.
5. It is pointed out that it is highly unusual for a refinery to charge an up-front fee, and that doing so indicates that they have discovered it to be essentially worthless.
6. There are some discussions about a patent which uses a similar process.
7. A couple people try Shecker's method, and report that gold and silver disappear, while leaving the base metals.
8. A couple people report that just the opposite occurs, the gold flakes off, and base metals are disolved, but these people have altered Shecker's method by adding sulfuric acid.
9. Shecker's last post was in September of '08.
10. A month later he is asked a direct question about a chemical symbol he used, but he doesn't reply.
Where is Shecker---is he OK?
What about the results which were achieved by those who tested his actual method, versus the failures obtained by those who altered his formula?
If the reports from those who tested his actual method are accurate, then it looks to me like it worked.
Was Shecker mistaken in his assumption that he had disolved the PMs?
And were the testers from here on the forum mistaken also?
Was the whole thing a hoax?
Edit: OK, I got confused and screwed up part of this while my purpose was to try and straighten out what had been writen so far. Numbers one and two, above, have the facts backwards, as follows. They should indicate that Shecker said that this method disolves base metals out from under all PM plating, and allows the PMs to drop to the bottom. And that also some copper drops down. Still, it seems like a good way to narrow things down, especially if you wanted to do whole or chopped up boards (he smashes the chips first).
eagle2
Well-known member
I have been using this method for the past year. It works to remove the base metals so that the PM`s can loosen and fall away. On some types of scrap it may be preferable.
It has advantages and disadvantages over the HCl plus Copper plus O2 leach system.
When I have the time I will post a full report with a reference.
Shecker was seriously disabled and may be no longer able to reply.
Al
It has advantages and disadvantages over the HCl plus Copper plus O2 leach system.
When I have the time I will post a full report with a reference.
Shecker was seriously disabled and may be no longer able to reply.
Al
A
Anonymous
Guest
I placed some scrap in copper sulfate solution for a week, I was not able to determine there was any result. I did not include iron, al, or other base metals, just plated fingers.
I then tried on some magnetic pins, it did work on the base metal, iron nickel type alloy. It was however very slow, since it could only work from the base of the pin.
I guess it could be sped up by grinding the pins.
Jim
I then tried on some magnetic pins, it did work on the base metal, iron nickel type alloy. It was however very slow, since it could only work from the base of the pin.
I guess it could be sped up by grinding the pins.
Jim
eagle2
Well-known member
Palladium:
On Shecker`s Sept 4 `08 post he said he was disabled and earier he also indicated he had arthritis. From his pictures (which are deleted) I thought I saw a wheel chair. Anyway just a guess on my part.
I will state, this is not a way to dissolve the PM`s and leave the base metals behind. (the Copper sulfate + H2SO4 + H2O2 system.) They fall to the bottom and mix in with any sludge. If your solution is not acid enough the amount of sludge will be large, because Copper, Tin, Iron compounds precipitate when the Ph is near neutral (3-7). Also, I have found that it only works well when constant additions of H2O2 are used.
I tried a air bubbler only, and the reaction stopped or became very very slow. The only help a bubbler would do is agitate the solution and scrap pieces and help loosen the foils or plate.
I used this on a batch of Gold filled watch bands and although it took several months, it did dissolve the stainless steel, leaving the Gold fill untouched. But its something I won`t try again. LOL
So far, I would recommend its use over the HCl + Copper Chloride system only for: unpopulated circuit boards, low base metal content scrap items and Silver plated items. This looks to be a very good way to work Silver plate!
Advantages over the HCl + Copper Chloride system are:
1. A cleaner solution.
2. Very little fuming or odor.
3. A much lower rate of corrosion of your work space.
4. Heat is not used. Although cold temps (40F) will slow it down.
5. No Gold or Platinum can go into solution. (A very small amount of Silver might and I don`t know about the rest of the PGM group.)
Disadvantages are:
1. Daily additions of H2O2 are needed. (A large consumption of Peroxide)
2. its significantly slower than HCl + Copper Chloride.
Al
On Shecker`s Sept 4 `08 post he said he was disabled and earier he also indicated he had arthritis. From his pictures (which are deleted) I thought I saw a wheel chair. Anyway just a guess on my part.
I will state, this is not a way to dissolve the PM`s and leave the base metals behind. (the Copper sulfate + H2SO4 + H2O2 system.) They fall to the bottom and mix in with any sludge. If your solution is not acid enough the amount of sludge will be large, because Copper, Tin, Iron compounds precipitate when the Ph is near neutral (3-7). Also, I have found that it only works well when constant additions of H2O2 are used.
I tried a air bubbler only, and the reaction stopped or became very very slow. The only help a bubbler would do is agitate the solution and scrap pieces and help loosen the foils or plate.
I used this on a batch of Gold filled watch bands and although it took several months, it did dissolve the stainless steel, leaving the Gold fill untouched. But its something I won`t try again. LOL
So far, I would recommend its use over the HCl + Copper Chloride system only for: unpopulated circuit boards, low base metal content scrap items and Silver plated items. This looks to be a very good way to work Silver plate!
Advantages over the HCl + Copper Chloride system are:
1. A cleaner solution.
2. Very little fuming or odor.
3. A much lower rate of corrosion of your work space.
4. Heat is not used. Although cold temps (40F) will slow it down.
5. No Gold or Platinum can go into solution. (A very small amount of Silver might and I don`t know about the rest of the PGM group.)
Disadvantages are:
1. Daily additions of H2O2 are needed. (A large consumption of Peroxide)
2. its significantly slower than HCl + Copper Chloride.
Al
dorki22
Active member
I will state, this is not a way to dissolve the PM`s and leave the base metals behind. (the Copper sulfate + H2SO4 + H2O2 system.) They fall to the bottom and mix in with any sludge. If your solution is not acid enough the amount of sludge will be large, because Copper, Tin, Iron compounds precipitate when the Ph is near neutral (3-7). Also, I have found that it only works well when constant additions of H2O2 are used.
Al[/quote]
Hi, eagle2.
So is it safe to say that CuSO4 method is almost perfect (cause of all potencial hazards with nitric acid) for getting silver out of contacts and points? No iron or aluminium here, just copper or brass, cadmium (where does this one go?), sometimes Pd. And it looks like maintaining low Ph will minimize other elements in the silver percipitant.
What about saturation? Approx. how much copper can be leeched with one liter?
Im not a chemist, so I am trying to keep it safe, this means as litlle acids and heat as possible. Theres only one big problem, selling CuSO4 is prohibited in EU, can cause cancer :-(
But cigaretts for an example are OK to sell..go figure :shock:
Thanks for your opinions on the matter and good luck
Simon
Al[/quote]
Hi, eagle2.
So is it safe to say that CuSO4 method is almost perfect (cause of all potencial hazards with nitric acid) for getting silver out of contacts and points? No iron or aluminium here, just copper or brass, cadmium (where does this one go?), sometimes Pd. And it looks like maintaining low Ph will minimize other elements in the silver percipitant.
What about saturation? Approx. how much copper can be leeched with one liter?
Im not a chemist, so I am trying to keep it safe, this means as litlle acids and heat as possible. Theres only one big problem, selling CuSO4 is prohibited in EU, can cause cancer :-(
But cigaretts for an example are OK to sell..go figure :shock:
Thanks for your opinions on the matter and good luck
Simon
A
Anonymous
Guest
I do not think anything with a sulfate is good for getting silver out of contact points, I have tried it. I also tried the poors mans nitric and the insoluble silver sulfate stops the reaction.
Jim
Jim
eagle2
Well-known member
Hi Simon
The Merck`s index states: Cupric Sulfate, Cadmium Sulfate and Cadmium Chloride are freely soluble in water. The actual values vary greatly depending on the amount of acid and other metals present.
Cuprous Chloride; the compound also present in the HCl + Cupric Chloride leach is stated to be sparingly soluble in water. This is the one that clouds up the HCl leach method.
It seems most Cadmium compounds are very soluble. So Cadmium always stays in solution. Careful ! This is a poisonous compound !
The Sulfuric + Copper Sulfate leach is not good for dissolving Silver points. I said: Use on Silver plated items. Like forks, spoons, computer keyboards, etc.
You don`t have to buy any Copper Sulfate, just start out by adding dilute Sulfuric plus H2O2 to the scrap and in a day you will see your solution start to turn blue (This is scrap that has a copper base). This is the Copper Sulfate forming. In a few days you will have all the action that the system can handle. Don`t add any more acid until you see some sludge forming. The less acid present the longer the H2O2 will last. But you need some acid present to prevent a lot of sludge forming. Pretty soon you will have too much Copper Sulfate on hand (in solution). Dispose of properly!
Earlier in this thread someone said they dissolved their Silver points with Sulfuric and H2O2. I suppose stirring would make it work.
Al
The Merck`s index states: Cupric Sulfate, Cadmium Sulfate and Cadmium Chloride are freely soluble in water. The actual values vary greatly depending on the amount of acid and other metals present.
Cuprous Chloride; the compound also present in the HCl + Cupric Chloride leach is stated to be sparingly soluble in water. This is the one that clouds up the HCl leach method.
It seems most Cadmium compounds are very soluble. So Cadmium always stays in solution. Careful ! This is a poisonous compound !
The Sulfuric + Copper Sulfate leach is not good for dissolving Silver points. I said: Use on Silver plated items. Like forks, spoons, computer keyboards, etc.
You don`t have to buy any Copper Sulfate, just start out by adding dilute Sulfuric plus H2O2 to the scrap and in a day you will see your solution start to turn blue (This is scrap that has a copper base). This is the Copper Sulfate forming. In a few days you will have all the action that the system can handle. Don`t add any more acid until you see some sludge forming. The less acid present the longer the H2O2 will last. But you need some acid present to prevent a lot of sludge forming. Pretty soon you will have too much Copper Sulfate on hand (in solution). Dispose of properly!
Earlier in this thread someone said they dissolved their Silver points with Sulfuric and H2O2. I suppose stirring would make it work.
Al
dorki22
Active member
james122964 said:
So regular nitric it is?
Thanks,James
dorki22
Active member
"The Sulfuric + Copper Sulfate leach is not good for dissolving Silver points. I said: Use on Silver plated items. Like forks, spoons, computer keyboards, etc."
Thanks Eagle, good to know about Cadmium being soluble. I have a lot of silver contacts screaming for attention, and no nitric :roll:
Thanks Eagle, good to know about Cadmium being soluble. I have a lot of silver contacts screaming for attention, and no nitric :roll:
eagle2
Well-known member
Dorki
Yes I have a lot of Silver points and no Nitric, too :x
Go back in this thread and on Jul 2, `08, Platdigger said, he dissolved silver points fast with H2SO4 + H2O2 (27.5%). He probably used concentrated Sulfuric.
This Sulfate leach system uses very dilute Sulfuric and the H2O2 would be diluted also in with the water, but its possible that if you`re leaching silver plated items a very small amount of Silver would go into solution.
Al
Yes I have a lot of Silver points and no Nitric, too :x
Go back in this thread and on Jul 2, `08, Platdigger said, he dissolved silver points fast with H2SO4 + H2O2 (27.5%). He probably used concentrated Sulfuric.
This Sulfate leach system uses very dilute Sulfuric and the H2O2 would be diluted also in with the water, but its possible that if you`re leaching silver plated items a very small amount of Silver would go into solution.
Al
heres a thing to try out. works for me.
melt your silver contacts in a piece of angle Iron ends welded on for mold, sooted with torch, then use jar of water add a few prills of NaNo3 sodium nitrate or pottasium nitrate, use your melted silver as anode (+) and a spoon as cathode silver plated copper spoon OK,
use a battery charger hooked to 12Volt battery, and from battery to your silver cell, now on the positive wire from battery put a 12 volt car tail light in series ( positive of battery to light and through light to positive silver anode), this light will devide your battery voltage between cell and bulb and it will limit current to your cell, and indicate the amperage your cell is pulling example if cell is dead short light full bright, or if no flow of current no light or medium current dim light. this will give you a silver and other metal powders basically breaking down your silver and metals to fine powders that are very easy for acids to handle, now heat Hydrochloric acid and a strong oxidizer will make silver chloride.
here is my way to dissolve metals and make distilled nitric in one reaction.
another method I have used for gold that should work for silver is to use a hot plate and a pan full of sand as a sand bath, now a vessel in sand bath for a distilling rig, a gallon pickle jar works for me, I also have made a teflon lid with holes for a teflon hose (do not use rubber), add your gold plated or silver items even silver should work here, if copper plated with gold also works, as we are making nitric solution in situ, see poormans nitric for formula , or about a cup of nitrate fertilizer or pottassium nitrate stump remover and Quart sulfuric acid concentrated little water here ok (car battery acid boiled to half or one third volume) we will boil off nitric oxides from pickle jar reactor and the hose will bubble these gases into water condensing fume into water making nitric acid (conentration will depend on water content of our formula used . we can use this nitric acid later, in the boiling reaction vessel the nitric formed before distilling off the gas dissolves our metals and if copper was involved like in plated pins we would be left with copper sulfate salts and gold foils, or if just silver once nitric mostly distilled out would be silver sulfate, now these salts would need to be remove fairly quick after reaction stops and water added (boiling water so not to break glass), if gold plated pins copper sulfate is soluble and dilution will leave gold foils,and if doing silver the sulfur compounds silver sulfate would need roasted off, or incenerated before making silver nitrate or silver chloride from them.
some safety tips
do not change temperature of glass fast it will break from thermal shock. hot boiling acids not fun.
do not use rubber or other flammable materials around nitric. teflon lid ( I turned mine on a lath), and teflon hose is good.
use sand bath do not heat glass directly.
learning a little about the chemistry of these metals goes along ways.
melt your silver contacts in a piece of angle Iron ends welded on for mold, sooted with torch, then use jar of water add a few prills of NaNo3 sodium nitrate or pottasium nitrate, use your melted silver as anode (+) and a spoon as cathode silver plated copper spoon OK,
use a battery charger hooked to 12Volt battery, and from battery to your silver cell, now on the positive wire from battery put a 12 volt car tail light in series ( positive of battery to light and through light to positive silver anode), this light will devide your battery voltage between cell and bulb and it will limit current to your cell, and indicate the amperage your cell is pulling example if cell is dead short light full bright, or if no flow of current no light or medium current dim light. this will give you a silver and other metal powders basically breaking down your silver and metals to fine powders that are very easy for acids to handle, now heat Hydrochloric acid and a strong oxidizer will make silver chloride.
here is my way to dissolve metals and make distilled nitric in one reaction.
another method I have used for gold that should work for silver is to use a hot plate and a pan full of sand as a sand bath, now a vessel in sand bath for a distilling rig, a gallon pickle jar works for me, I also have made a teflon lid with holes for a teflon hose (do not use rubber), add your gold plated or silver items even silver should work here, if copper plated with gold also works, as we are making nitric solution in situ, see poormans nitric for formula , or about a cup of nitrate fertilizer or pottassium nitrate stump remover and Quart sulfuric acid concentrated little water here ok (car battery acid boiled to half or one third volume) we will boil off nitric oxides from pickle jar reactor and the hose will bubble these gases into water condensing fume into water making nitric acid (conentration will depend on water content of our formula used . we can use this nitric acid later, in the boiling reaction vessel the nitric formed before distilling off the gas dissolves our metals and if copper was involved like in plated pins we would be left with copper sulfate salts and gold foils, or if just silver once nitric mostly distilled out would be silver sulfate, now these salts would need to be remove fairly quick after reaction stops and water added (boiling water so not to break glass), if gold plated pins copper sulfate is soluble and dilution will leave gold foils,and if doing silver the sulfur compounds silver sulfate would need roasted off, or incenerated before making silver nitrate or silver chloride from them.
some safety tips
do not change temperature of glass fast it will break from thermal shock. hot boiling acids not fun.
do not use rubber or other flammable materials around nitric. teflon lid ( I turned mine on a lath), and teflon hose is good.
use sand bath do not heat glass directly.
learning a little about the chemistry of these metals goes along ways.
