I got screwed by 2 different refineries

[4metals]

I received an e-mail with a question about the post on melt-ables which is worthy of repeating. The question was what about the small pieces of steel that end up on the top of the melt? Good question! A-lot of jewelry has spring wire in it for clasps or other reasons. First of all when you are buying the stuff you should check if it is magnetic. If it is sometimes it is plated so you don't buy it, sometimes it is plumb karat but the magnet sticks to the end with a catch or some clasping mechanism. Here you have to make an educated guess about how much weight to deduct because something in there isn't gold. Now you're at the refiner and your bar is melted and you notice magnetic pieces on the bar. (Surprise! your refiner has a magnet too) You can estimate the weight and subtract it from the bar weight, but that's a guess and they guess high and you guess low. If the refiner really knows his stuff he will have some phosphorous copper on hand. Great stuff, it will take magnetics into the bar and make it nice and homogeneous so there is no issue. Remember your bar will gain weight so the assay will go down..... same amount of gold is still there. The phos-copper comes in nuggets and 2 ounces added to a 100 ounce karat melt will dissolve maybe 1/2 ounce of steel. I would pull out all of the pieces with magnetic tendencies and do a separate melt. I would be doing this before going to the refiner. Make sure your refiner has phos copper for this purpose and when you have enough for a melt with magnetic karat run it together. If the refiner doesn't have phos copper, regular copper will work but you will have to add more copper because it doesn't get the phosphorous boost to help the melt. Having the melt without floating magnetics is a better way to get a good return but remember you have to pay the customer less for the piece when you buy it too. Be kind, the springs don't weigh that much!

 

[4metals]

I have been reading on the forum about members using or wanting a XRF for gold assays. For buying gold from a customer selling a few pieces it can't be beat, it is quick and it definitely beats testing on a stone for qualitative analysis of other metals present. If you are buying gold and selling it to a refiner you should never accept an X ray result. Let me explain why. You go to a refiner who only charges you 2%, no melt fees or assay fees. The real selling point is quick same day settlement, how can you go wrong? The way you can go wrong is that the XRF machine is a calibrated machine. That means if you start with an alloy which you know is plumb 14K, you've had it fire assayed so you're sure, you sample this alloy when setting up the calibration and tell the machine this is .5833 gold (assume plumb). This is great for a manufacturer who uses a bunch of different alloys and programs them into the device, now all he has to do for quality control is a quick scan and he knows what his alloy is. The problem lies in the fact that a refiner doesn't know the starting alloy so at best it is an approximation. But what if the refiner puts in a piece of plumb 14K and tells the machine it's 13.5K. If you do the math the difference between 14k and 13.5K is 2.08%. If your total melt had a content of 1 kilo of fine gold and was 14k to start, the machine assay, if it was calibrated to read lower, will cost you another $600 at $900 dollar gold. True you saved on costs because you didn't pay for the assay or the melt, but you got beat for at least $500 ! After you leave the refiner will always run a fire assay before he puts it in production because he needs to know the real answer before he refines it. If you had waited for a day or 2 and settled on a fire assay, this can't happen. Now it is true that if the machine is calibrated 1/2 k off the refiner is only charging you 4.08% for 14k material, but the calibration can be off by more than that as well. But his claim was 2% no other fees.

If you do this kind of buying and send out your refining here is a little trick you can put up your sleeve. Save your extra dip samples from your previous lots, you know the assays because you sent them to a fire assayer and you also know the numbers you settled on. If your current lot is say close to 14K, bring a pin sample that is similar. Now when they are ready to read your new sample, whip out your pin and say "can you read this sample first?" If they do it, usually they get flustered and give some lame excuse, compare the reading they give you with the assay you know to be true. If it's close you've found an honest refiner. (don't be too surprised, they are out there!) If it's off humor them while they give you an excuse and say it's OK, we'll settle with a fire assay! By the way, if you do the little check this pin trick first and then settle on a fire assay, you should only pay the rates you were quoted (if in writing) but guaranteed the next time you refine with them, you'll get new rates!

The lure of the fast settlement is often the tip-off to hidden charges!

 

[Palladium]

I do have to say i also am impressed with 4metals.

Good Job. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

4 metals has some good info, but all the heebie jeebie about how to make a refiner tow the mark, is basically a waste
of time, because I can assure you if you send your metals to them, YOU WILL LOSE.
They are NOT going to let you walk through their facility and follow your metal; they don't have to kowtow to
us, because they don't want the business of anyone smart enough to keep up with the process, when they have a whole world of suckers waiting to be fleeced.
YOU WILL LOSE, even if they let you walk through and do all the sampling bit, etc.
If you don't agree with their final count, they will wind up with a bit of your metal anyway, and YOU WILL LOSE.
THEY HAVE WAYS.
Besides, they have equipment now that can SCAN a pig (dore bar etc ) and tell EXACTLY how much of what is in there, IF THEY WANT TO.

 

[Oz]

I know better than to judge someone by the number of posts they have as to deciding their proficiency level but I would assume that you have made your living exclusively for many years in the refining business such as 4metals has to be able to have stated the above with such absolute certainty as to be beyond reproach.

Would I be right in such an assumption?

 

[Fournines]

I know better than to judge someone by the number of posts they have as to deciding their proficiency level but I would assume that you have made your living exclusively for many years in the refining business such as 4metals has to be able to have stated the above with such absolute certainty as to be beyond reproach.

Would I be right in such an assumption?

You're correct, Gold Dawg definitely has just posted the most well thought out, researched, non-biased response that I've seen on this board!

 

[golddie]

Nobody is honest in this business.
I have heard some bad things about Kitco too.
The funny thing is that there is a sucker born every minute
How about those commercials on TV
The person sends their gold in an envelope
Who know what kind of monkey business goes on over there

 

[Noxx]

Nobody is honest in this business.

Are you aware that you are on a gold refining forum and many members here try to earn a living of it, including myself ?

Please do not insult us.

 

[4metals]

I can guarantee anybody out there reading this that there are honest refiners out there. There are also outright thieves out there. Everyone in a legitimate business has a right to price his work to make a reasonable profit. Unfortunately this business has become so competitive that to compete some companies have turned to deception. If a deal sounds too good to be true it probably is, in NYC the average return for refining karat gold is 99% and some are pushing that. The buy it over the counter guys are paying 96%! Everybody's squeezing everybody and it makes it difficult to imagine where the industry's going. If you follow the guidelines I've posted on this thread, you will get a fair return. If you went to an unscrupulous refiner he will be looking to hit you when your head is turned, so it's all up to how well you do the representation part. Any refiner offering the rate of return at 98% has room to profit and no need to rip you off. That doesn't mean they won't if you let them. In this business you have to remain informed and be aware, but it's unfair to be judged by guys who spend their days on the couch with a beer in one hand and the other in their boxers while they send out their gold jewelry to guys like Cash for Gold. Like the guy on TV selling mens wear used to say "An educated consumer is our best customer!"

 

[golddie]

Like all businesses these days the honest guy is finding it very difficult to do business being honest.
Its always buyer beware.
In this case the seller beware.
I personally would not send recommend sending gold to any company by mail.
Even the most honest person will be tempted to do something fishy.

 

[Oz]

First off I took the original post from Gold Dawg to mean that all of 4metals posts as to refereeing one’s own metals or having someone else babysit it for you as a waste of time. It being Gold Dawg’s first post I also wished for him to qualify himself as to experience before I gave his statements great thought, as I am convinced of 4metals background given his posts. Granted that some will try to steal from you no matter what, but just like the old saying “locks only keep honest people honest” there is no reason to tempt them or make it easy to steal from you. If one has that opinion, they should leave their keys in their car and home unlocked as it will be stolen or burglarized anyway. 4metals gave simple prudent outlines for protecting what is yours. Much the same as you leaving a stack of $100 bills on your front porch instead of inside, thinking no one will take it since it is obviously yours.

I have dealt with refineries that are honest and when there was a lower yield than what I expected it was a small amount. After some discussion it became apparent to me where they lost it based on their procedure. Mind you this was material sent by mail (not cash4gold) and the yield was discussed over the phone. I have always been able to find middle ground with honest refiners, with both of us learning from each others procedures and processes. Once it was as simple as a thin layer of floating metallic due to oil residues on their “clean” glassware. You would be amazed at how many “big” refiners do not know what is considered common knowledge here.

Noxx has a good point in replying to the fact that there are many refiners here and not all of them are dishonest, that is indeed an insult. I personally deal in straight honest terms because my reputation is far more important to me than financial gain. Oddly enough I have found that this gives me core customers that come back even when they are told they will get a higher return from someone else. They know that they will not get surprises or hidden charges and even if I pay a bit less than others they know that I honor my word and that is more important to them.

There will always be dishonest people in this world and hard economic times will make it worse. There are however those out there that put principle and honesty before personal gain. I would rather stay relatively poor than be wealthy by being dishonest. It is more important to me that at the end of the day I know I have done right by others.

That does not mean trust a stranger blindly. It is hard to find honest people in this business. A quote that sticks in my mind is one uttered by our GSP “the refiner is the last liar” That is part of what makes this forum useful, feedback from others about people and businesses they have dealt with.

Everyone on this forum has the choice to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Excellent posts, Oz and 4metals.

I know that there are honest refiners out there because I was one. I also know there are dishonest refiners because I worked for a lot of them. I had a friend that was the manager of a very large refinery. He got fired because he wouldn't steal from the customers. His replacement broke out in hives whenever he had to make settlements and was forced to steal. He soon quit.

There are honest refiners but the problem is finding them. There is always a doubt in the back of your mind. Even if a refiner is 100% honest, some customers will always think they are cheating them. Harold has experienced this. It is human nature to think that your own material is worth more than its actual value. Every lot of material has a gray area, an area of doubt as to what it is really worth. Many people assume their material is at the top of the scale. Some people will never be satisfied.

 

[MiltonFu]

I have personally dealt with three refiners/processors in the USA. One was an instant thief. The second one took their time in screwing me. The third reeled me in, gave me some confidence then took out the knife.
However, I have dealt with a company that I sell my precious metal to and after multiple transactions, things seem fine. I witness my melt, take my independent sample and so far I have had no surprises.
If a refiner/processor wants to shaft you, there is no defense...none. However, as mentioned in previous posts, there are things that can be done to reduce risk and minimize damage.

 

[patnor1011]

I dont agree with one thing Milton. You said that there is no defence. There is one. Never to go back and give bad feedback.

 

[Anonymous]

With 5-6 lbs of 10K, what reliable small refinery can I seek to process into grains. Thanks for your help.

June

 

[EDI Refining]

With 5-6 lbs of 10K, what reliable small refinery can I seek to process into grains. Thanks for your help.

June

A few members on the board, can help you with this.

Lazersteve, Noxx, Myself - All do this, for a yeild %

 

[Lou]

I might also do something too. I can melt, assay, and then send you my gold in exchange for yours.

 

[Ageo308]

This is the same problem we have here in Australia.....

I always tell people but some never listen, once your metal is melted it cannot be unmelted so whatever you gave them is now gone and whatever's "left supposedly" is what you will receive.


The reason im so busy buying scrap is because we test on the spot (convenient for the customer) which is non destructive. A customer *is not interested in time wasting/assays/melting blah blah blah. They just want to know how much $$$$ will they get now. Normally i can give a quote for 100grams in about 10min (after on the spot testing) and if they are not happy in any way they get the stock back as normal (unaltered) and no fee is charged for testing/going out.

I sell to refiners all the time and they shaft me (and i deal in scrap all the time so could you imagine the poor joe blow).

*Unacceptable language substituted by moderator.

 

[4metals]

Ageo

I sell to refiners all the time and they shaft me (and i deal in scrap all the time so could you imagine the poor joe blow).

This is an interesting statement, and one heard often, it would be interesting to discuss in detail your typical transaction with a refiner that shafts you. Do you go to witness? Do you take a sample? If you are willing to share the details of your experiences we can possibly get to the root of the problem. It is entirely possible you are being taken, but it is also possible your expectations are high.

If you are willing to share some details all on this board may benefit.

 

[goldsilverpro]

I sell to refiners all the time and they shaft me

What's the old saying (the clean version), "Shaft me once, shame on you. Shaft me twice, shame on me."?

As 4metals said, how do you know you're getting shafted? What are you shipping and in what quantities? How did you sort the material? How have you determined the value(s) of what you are shipping?

If I definitely knew the value of what I was shipping and was positive I was getting shafted, I would soon learn enough to know how to do the right things to prevent getting shafted.