I got screwed by 2 different refineries

[4metals]

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that a good number of people who feel they have been short changed have never had their material put into a form where they could have the material assayed to know exactly what is there.

Then there's the guys paying $16 per pennyweight for 14 karat scrap and they expect you to refine their gold for 1%. Meanwhile their margin is huge. In that case the refiner who gets you for an extra percentage point or 2 is still not honest, but the real looser is the customer who sold his scrap to the middle man.

I hope we get some details of actual refiner transactions here so we can try and ferret out what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it.

 

[Ageo308]

Ok sorry for the late reply but i have been real busy. I should have made myself more clear i test all my stock with an XRF alloy tester which for jewellery scrap is more than enough to get an accurate reading on the karatage. Now when i send my stock in for refining i know exactly what i should receive based on the results of my testing and the loss they the refiner says they accept (2% is the norm here), plus the refining charge.

Now i never went in as im way too busy to spend all day (sometimes longer) to watch my stock (thats why i pay them, its a service and im suppose to trust them), anywayz both times i have come short quite a large amount, of course when questioned both times there was always an excuse. Anywayz since then i found a buyer who i know deal with (they deal with refineries in massive amounts like 1 tonne per yr or more). Basically my 1 on 1 experience with refineries isnt major (sorry i should of made myself more clear) but the guys i deal with reckon they lose big money each month and the problem is they have used every refinery in Australia that can handle the amounts they send in. So the only other option to stop losing money is to open or take over another refiner and then monitor the problem from there. The thing is its not so simple here and requires alot of time which they simple dont have.

But in short the point is refiners are ripping them off, which they know about but because of the large volume of turnover there is nothing they can do.

For me i took a pay cut and dealt with a buyer but in the end im actually making more because my payout is consistent all the time.

Thats the reason i came to this site, to learn how to refine but the problem is when your buying 3-5kg of scrap per week you dont have much time on your hands. If someone wants to come over here in Aus and set up i could send you enough scrap for refining to last you 150yrs

 

[4metals]

I would assume the 2% loss the refiner accepts is because on average 14 karat gold runs 56% so it's 2% plus off plumb. Most buyers calibrate their XRF to read 56 for 14K. If your refiner takes all day to melt you are either sending huge lots or they have figured out you won't come to rep a lot if it takes too long. Most shops I do business with can and do melt and sample on a 1000 ounce lot and you're out the door in an hour or less.

Does anybody do professional sample representation in Australia? Check out Inspectorate Griffith, paying a rep may be cheaper than accepting built in losses.

Another alternative would be to melt your material into bars and sample the bars for assay. I'm sure there are decent assayers down under. Refiners are getting very competitive these days, if your lots are big enough you may get the refiner to sample the melt when you melt it instead of when he melts it.

 

[Ageo308]

I would assume the 2% loss the refiner accepts is because on average 14 karat gold runs 56% so it's 2% plus off plumb. Most buyers calibrate their XRF to read 56 for 14K. If your refiner takes all day to melt you are either sending huge lots or they have figured out you won't come to rep a lot if it takes too long. Most shops I do business with can and do melt and sample on a 1000 ounce lot and you're out the door in an hour or less.

Does anybody do professional sample representation in Australia? Check out Inspectorate Griffith, paying a rep may be cheaper than accepting built in losses.

Another alternative would be to melt your material into bars and sample the bars for assay. I'm sure there are decent assayers down under. Refiners are getting very competitive these days, if your lots are big enough you may get the refiner to sample the melt when you melt it instead of when he melts it.

4 metals like i said i now have a buyer who pays me exactly what im after. For me its not worth sending the stuff to the refiner and going through all the rubbish.

Perhaps Harold can shed some light on this as he was a professional refiner.

 

[patnor1011]

i have just found here in galway new company. not refiner but something like gold4cash type. they plan to organize party in home of somebody aimed to buying gold of people. there was article and interview with them in newspaper where reporter brought bracelet got it assayed and priced. from quick calculation it seems that they pay decent price near spot but the question is if that price was good becouse of that interview... we will see as i am planning to go to few of these party to get my gold assayed and priced for free ) their price for 9 karat gold was 7.04 euro per gram today.

 

[patnor1011]

sorry....
link for article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0707/1224250169242.html

and for company:
http://www.goldparty.ie

 

[4metals]

If there is any defense for a company like cash for gold it's how much does he have to take off the price he pays for gold just to cover his advertising costs? I would guess 20 to 25% at a minimum. He's on TV, radio, internet, newsprint, in short he's spending a ton of cash. The reason a gold buying party can offer higher prices is the advertising costs are localized and theoretically lower.
It will be interesting to hear how you make out. What is the current dollar to euro conversion?

By the way, don't get me wrong, I think cash for gold is still ripping people. But so are a lot of little jewelry stores.

 

[patnor1011]

1 euro is 1.39 usd today

I believe that the only person making money in transactions with gold4cash type con-panies is cash4gold not seller or ordinary person sending gold there so i share your view.

that gold party thing + news interview is funny for me as I strongly suspect that their price for that day was good only becouse they did that interview so that was like some small investment to get to people minds. that is why i want to go there when there will be party somewhere in my county becouse i suspect that their price will not be that good or close to spot as they claim that their agent will get 5% and homeowner where that party will be held will get another 10%... with little maths they must pay way below spot at least 20% to make 15% on comission for agent and homeowner and at least 5-10% for them... it will leave person wishing to sell their piece of gold with price of say maximum 80% of the spot but I doubt that company will be happy with 5% only.

if ill wisit any of that party, ill go there with few pieces of various quality to find out if they are going to give accurate estimate and to find out their prices. ill report all of it here with pictures. i am in ireland so it is not very helpfull to most of people on this forum but it will give you picture how these companys operate...

 

[Fournines]

If there is any defense for a company like cash for gold it's how much does he have to take off the price he pays for gold just to cover his advertising costs? I would guess 20 to 25% at a minimum. He's on TV, radio, internet, newsprint, in short he's spending a ton of cash. The reason a gold buying party can offer higher prices is the advertising costs are localized and theoretically lower.
It will be interesting to hear how you make out. What is the current dollar to euro conversion?

By the way, don't get me wrong, I think cash for gold is still ripping people. But so are a lot of little jewelry stores.

The last information I heard was that Cash 4 Gold is spending $2 million a month on advertising (across all mediums).

 

[goldsilverpro]

fournines,

Haven't heard from you for about a month and a half. Good to have you back.

 

[Fournines]

Thanks, it has been a while! The past two months have been very busy, but I'm going to try and contribute more here when/where I can.

 

[goldsilverpro]

You were one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum. I learned things from you and I missed you. Your absence created a void.

 

[Palladium]

I to find his knowledge insightful.

8)

Noxx, what's up with the missing smiley faces in the post a reply screen where we compose messages.

I miss my smiley.

 

[Palladium]

Hey, You even have your own PDF now. :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=559&start=160#p45794

 

[goldsilverpro]

Wrong guy, Ralph.

 

[teabone]

I think you meant 4metals !!!!

 

[Palladium]

Well, I guess i need to lay off the meds sometimes. My mind has been going in 100 different direction lately.
Sorry about that guys. Hey, they do both that the word or number 4 in their names.

 

[jimdoc]

Here's another cash4gold story, it even includes the extra 20%;

http://news.coinupdate.com/cash-4-gold-review-paid-18-of-gold-value/

 

[butcher]

is this the 20% more than they usually pay that they have advertised, may be people should pay cash4gold to rob them?

 

[jbnelson]

I also got screwed by Midwest Refineries.

I sent them several oz. of gold, all tested and weighed insured for $ 10,000.00, and I got back acheck for $ 5,924.12.

My low estimate, what I would have got from an e-bay auction was $ 8,000.00 :shock:

They totaly ripped me off.

I have complained to the BBB & the State Attorney Generals office.