I got screwed by 2 different refineries

[MiguelRosas]

i have to wonder if it is a reading comprehension problem. i clearly stated motherboards and fingerless cards. and my grading (low grade).

further, i received a quote from

Miguel A. Rosas

Regional Sales Manager

Hi-Tech Precious Metals & Refinery

of $5 per pound for processing circuit boards.

having said all of that, i will gladly pay the $5 or the $1.85, providing either of those processors are willing to guarantee a proportionally higher return than i currently get on the same material. i can provide both of you with 2000/lbs of identical material that i have been supplying to my current processor.

almost forgot. while you are figuring costs vs recovery, remember, processors only pay for 5 metals. anyone that doesn't think the remainder of the metals are worthwhile, please send them to me. i will take all the lead, tin, nickel, etc. that you all don't want.

Brooks -

That quote was not a $5 processing fee. That was a purchase offer for $5 per lbs of your material.

Miguel

 

[rbrooks715]

From: Miguel Rosas <[email protected]>
Subject: re: escrap
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 9:47 AM

Mr. Brooks -

For computer scrap we have several different options depending on total weight.

The problem becomes - how do you transport a significant amount of scrap without it eating into your profit?

I have a gentleman that brings in 1,500 - 2,500 lbs a month of scrap. And our deal with him is a $10 per pound advance - with anything over $15 we split the profit. (Meaning if the end result comes out to be $35 per pound - we subtract the $10 advance = $25. We take our $5 per pound out = $20. So we slit the $20....... End result is client gets $20 a lbs.

However, I also have a client that brings me 100 lbs of scrap - and it was not that well plated with Gold - so we only offered him $4 per pound FLAT - no advance, no profit splitting.

It becomes difficult to tell you what exactly we "pay" because it does very in the amount of PM on the boards, the total weight, and the quality of material.

As far as turn around time - that also depends on the amont of product we have to process. For the large bulk gentleman I mentioned above, we are on a 4 week settlement.

I suppose the next question is, how much material are we looking to refine?

Kindest Regards,

Miguel A. Rosas

Regional Sales Manager

Hi-Tech Precious Metals & Refinery

www.hitechpmr.com

13620 Gamma Rd.

Dallas, Texas 75244

Office: (972) 239-0597

Mobile: (214) 629-3093

Fax: (972) 239-0598<<

the above is the email you sent.

and this portion of the email below

I have a gentleman that brings in 1,500 - 2,500 lbs a month of scrap. And our deal with him is a $10 per pound advance - with anything over $15 we split the profit. (Meaning if the end result comes out to be $35 per pound - we subtract the $10 advance = $25. We take our $5 per pound out = $20. So we slit the $20....... End result is client gets $20 a lbs. <<<

is a $5/lb processing fee. not an offer to purchase for $5/lb.

there is no offer to purchase.

From: "Rich Brooks" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: re: escrap

$5 /lb for processing boards??

your processing fee is more, or close to, the actual return of a mid grade or low grade board. add shipping and the boards would not produce a return to me.

i appreciate your time and your response, but i am looking for a profitable transaction.

thanks

richard brooks

Richard -

Yeah, unfortunately we are not the cheapest or quickest when it comes to Computer parts. There are clearly a lot better e-scrap refiners out there.

Our bread and butter is processing Gold / Silver scrap - and that we are unmatched.

I do wish you the best in your search,

Miguel A. Rosas

Regional Sales Manager

Hi-Tech Precious Metals & Refinery

www.hitechpmr.com

13620 Gamma Rd.

Dallas, Texas 75244

Office: (972) 239-0597

Mobile: (214) 629-3093

Fax: (972) 239-0598


and those are the follow up emails.

want to try this again?

so far, all you have done, is continue the general perception of refiners/processors.

mic apologized for no reason. you owe him, and this forum, an apology.

 

[MiguelRosas]

From: Miguel Rosas <[email protected]>
Subject: re: escrap
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 9:47 AM

Mr. Brooks -

For computer scrap we have several different options depending on total weight.

The problem becomes - how do you transport a significant amount of scrap without it eating into your profit?

I have a gentleman that brings in 1,500 - 2,500 lbs a month of scrap. And our deal with him is a $10 per pound advance - with anything over $15 we split the profit. (Meaning if the end result comes out to be $35 per pound - we subtract the $10 advance = $25. We take our $5 per pound out = $20. So we slit the $20....... End result is client gets $20 a lbs.

However, I also have a client that brings me 100 lbs of scrap - and it was not that well plated with Gold - so we only offered him $4 per pound FLAT - no advance, no profit splitting.

It becomes difficult to tell you what exactly we "pay" because it does very in the amount of PM on the boards, the total weight, and the quality of material.

As far as turn around time - that also depends on the amont of product we have to process. For the large bulk gentleman I mentioned above, we are on a 4 week settlement.

I suppose the next question is, how much material are we looking to refine?

Kindest Regards,

Miguel A. Rosas

Regional Sales Manager

Hi-Tech Precious Metals & Refinery

http://www.hitechpmr.com

13620 Gamma Rd.

Dallas, Texas 75244

Office: (972) 239-0597

Mobile: (214) 629-3093

Fax: (972) 239-0598<<

the above is the email you sent.

and this portion of the email below

I have a gentleman that brings in 1,500 - 2,500 lbs a month of scrap. And our deal with him is a $10 per pound advance - with anything over $15 we split the profit. (Meaning if the end result comes out to be $35 per pound - we subtract the $10 advance = $25. We take our $5 per pound out = $20. So we slit the $20....... End result is client gets $20 a lbs. <<<

is a $5/lb processing fee. not an offer to purchase for $5/lb.

there is no offer to purchase.

From: "Rich Brooks" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: re: escrap

$5 /lb for processing boards??

your processing fee is more, or close to, the actual return of a mid grade or low grade board. add shipping and the boards would not produce a return to me.

i appreciate your time and your response, but i am looking for a profitable transaction.

thanks

richard brooks

Richard -

Yeah, unfortunately we are not the cheapest or quickest when it comes to Computer parts. There are clearly a lot better e-scrap refiners out there.

Our bread and butter is processing Gold / Silver scrap - and that we are unmatched.

I do wish you the best in your search,

Miguel A. Rosas

Regional Sales Manager

Hi-Tech Precious Metals & Refinery

http://www.hitechpmr.com

13620 Gamma Rd.

Dallas, Texas 75244

Office: (972) 239-0597

Mobile: (214) 629-3093

Fax: (972) 239-0598


and those are the follow up emails.

want to try this again?

so far, all you have done, is continue the general perception of refiners/processors.

mic apologized for no reason. you owe him, and this forum, an apology.

Brooks -

I have no desire to get into a disagreement, and you must realize that I deal with several clients on a daily basis - so what I will apologize for is my confusion on my previous comment regarding your quote and the $5 offer. However now that you displayed my communication with you - I remember our conversation vividly.

In the example regarding my client, we advance you (the client) $10 per pound. This is a great advance for mid-grade material that is basically untested!!! We then will split any profits over and beyond $15 per pound. The $5 difference is not a processing fee - it is a guarantee of profit for us - and by no means is a set dollar amount. For this client, the $5 is what we agreed upon because his product comes in as mid / high grade and values at $30+ per pound. He actually ends up taking home around $17 per pound - and that is unheard of. IF YOUR PRODUCT COMES IN AT $9 per pound - WE LOST MONEY!!! If it comes in at $11 or $12 we break even given refining material.....

I am not aware of any refining company that will Advance you money then profit share with you.

As members of the forum will see, I also explained later in the quote an example of a 100 lbs client in which we pay only $4 per pound. I never made mention of a fee or any other costs associated with it, so I find it very difficult to see your point in which I am misleading anyone.

I am more than willing to discuss and answer any questions or concerns you have, but I will not stand for disrespect or a allegations of poor business practices.

Miguel

 

[rbrooks715]

well, i haven't made any disparaging remarks, yet. it is obvious that you are confused to say the least. i do get advances from processors, as well as advance payment from several buyers. $17/lb is not unheard of. considering what some folks, like me, pay for various boards. i do not split any profits.

however, i specifically mentioned motherboards and fingerless cards. as i consider them low grade boards.

if you can guarantee a $17/lb return for those boards, i will be bringing boards this week. something tells me you will not. if anyone was getting those kind of returns for that type of material we would all be paying a lot more for those boards. if you are stating that return for memory and telecom boards, your client is getting screwed.

now for the disparaging part.

<$5 /lb for processing boards??

Yeah, unfortunately we are not the cheapest or quickest when it comes to Computer parts. There are clearly a lot better e-scrap refiners out there. <

you said it. not i. tho i do agree.

i doubt you will advance $10/lb for motherboards and fingerless cards. if you will, give me a couple days. i will apologize in person, you can even video tape me doing it, as i deliver a few tons of boards.

btw- according to your example, you are charging $13+/lb. for processing those boards.

personally, i find that outrageous. to say the least. however, i am only speaking for myself.

let me know when you want me to deliver those motherboards.

 

[MiguelRosas]

Brooks -
In regards to the original posting, our refining schedule for e-scrap is not standardized, hence why I did not post rates regarding them.

As mention, we make payout, advances and business agreements on a case by case basis.
You are more than welcome to send us a sample of your material and we would be happy to make an offer specifically for you and to your satisfaction - or we simply cannot match your current rates and you continue to process with whomever you are using.

Should you have any further questions regarding our services, you have my contact information.

 

[rbrooks715]

well, i have a question for anyone or everyone.

how many of you would take your material in and accept what is basically a 60/40 return.

think of all the chemicals, equipment and labor involved in processing that karat material. (Time - Costs - Accuracy can be used at any level)

you have not changed my perception of refiners.

 

[Lou]

Given what is required to do e-scrap and maintain compliance with all sorts of regulations*, 60/40 is fair, depending on the volume. It's a very, very expensive proposition to do right, and almost everyone does not do it all in house.







*apparently, Texas is a wonderful place to do a chemical business given all the oil refineries, anything with "refinery" in it is literally golden in communities that enjoy the tax advantage of such corporations

 

[rbrooks715]

Given what is required to do e-scrap and maintain compliance with all sorts of regulations*, 60/40 is fair, depending on the volume. It's a very, very expensive proposition to do right, and almost everyone does not do it all in house.<<

the great myth continues.

how about a bit of logic or even basic math.

motherboards, hard drive boards and memory. three entirely different grades of boards.

motherboards are currently being bought by a board member for $4.35/lb. he needs to strip as much junk off as possible prior to sending to a processor. he will have the labor costs plus the shipping fees plus the $4.35 he originally paid. at minimum, he has $5/lb in those motherboards. just to break even on a 60/40 split, requires a $8.50/lb recovery. that equates to $17,000 per ton for recovery. that is just to break even. no profit for the board buyer. at a 30% profit, which is too low, you must recover an additional $5,000 per ton. for a total of $22,000 per ton, just for motherboards. which are low grade boards.

hard drive boards would require a recovery of $46,000 (23/lb)per ton and

memory would require a recovery of $70,000 (35/lb) per ton to equate to a profit of 30% on a 60/40 split.

is anyone on this board getting these kind of results???

any of the reps for the refiners want to step up and give us some insight???

any of the board buyers who are using processors want to comment on how close to these figures you currently are??

does anyone ever consider the values you are throwing around.

the example miguel gave equates to $60,000 per ton. his cut was $26,000 per ton. now the cost of processing that ton is more than the total assumptive value of a ton of motherboards. meaning that he would need to keep all of the money from the motherboards if the cost of processing those boards is actually the same. or the cost is really as expensive as you claim.

which leads me to ask, are you currently processing boards. what is your fee schedule.

 

[Lou]

Maybe it would be better if it was all fee driven.

You're running on several assumptions, namely that the poor board buyer is stripping and high-grading all the boards himself and is sending clean lots. That's simply not the norm: all manner of junky trash boards come into a refiner, some of them not even worth the burning! It happens more and more often because many people are clipping visible gold. In my opinion, to expect a refiner to process motherboards for only a 5% cut is ludicrous at almost any volume. Hell, up until a few years back, there were people doing karat gold for a 5% profit margin! I would think 10% would be fair if it were all material (pins) that could be cyanide stripped or was clean enough to melt in a crucible furnace and electrowin out the collector.

It would seem the only great myth continuing is that of the seller always thinking he has more than what reality is. I see it all the time, even in people who should know better than to allow such a bias. I do it myself on occasion when I'm really excited and have high expectations on incoming material. The optimism is tough to quash. At the end of the day, what it recovers and refines to is what it is (for me at least).

Logic would dictate you go to the literature and find the basic math. There's plenty of info on recoveries, process methodologies, reviews of the current state of the art, etc. all available to the library. Recovery is by its very nature a "this is what we got, this is what we want, this is what you get" business that requires large volume of low grade material to justify moving on to refining. Refining is more "this is what you have, this is what we pay, you know what we keep" business that's much less capital intensive (presuming the refiner isn't constantly advancing customers).

 

[nickvc]

The one option is to sell the boards as is...no charges just money in your hand.
The problem I feel is that as Lou stated expectations are too high considering the cost of plant to process this stuff properly even to a dore bar stage, every business needs a return on investment plus costs and a profit. When the recovery gets to a dore bar stage it has to be shipped to a copper refiner who will take maybe 3 months to settle,advances can be had with interest added and deducted from your settlement figure, and let's pray the market doesn't fall badly or else bye bye profits. You can't have it always unless your a huge end player who makes the rules.

 

[rbrooks715]

well, you are the one making assumptions.

i am using the results of what is supposed to be an accurate example that was supplied by a processor. and which you concur with.

the claim of a fixed cost of $5/lb for processing was ludicrous. the follow up of charging that customer a total of $13/lb is why processors have the reputation.

the logic that you wish to apply has some detrimental aspects to it.

there is another processing rep on this board whose company charges $1.85/lb for processing. i currently use a company that charges $.90/lb for processing.

if, the claim is that it costs $5/lb to process, then both of those companies would be guilty of falsifying recovery rates and assay's of material recovered. or they are losing a lot of money. i doubt they are in the business to lose money. so, you have declared that these companies are not entirely honest in their dealings. along with the vast majority of processors in this country. $1.85 is on the high side. $1 is far more common.

as to the quality of boards a buyer wishes to submit. that is an entirely separate issue. i have been very specific about the material in question. there is very little removable waste material from hard drive boards, controller cards or memory.

if you cherry pick the boards you will not and can not expect any reasonable return when processed.

however, if you fail to remove excess waste from the boards, you can expect the same recovery of payable materials. you will simply be charged more for the process. as it based on weight of material processed.

more to the point. if, a fixed cost is $5/lb. and we all know that buyers are paying a minimum of $4.35/ lb. that means that it requires a recovery rate of over $18,000 per ton of motherboards just to break even.

are you getting recovery rates of $18,000 + per ton of motherboards??? actually, you will need to hit about $22,000 per ton to make this even viable.

simple question. if you are reaching those recovery rates, why aren't the processors admitting to that. if they aren't, then there is something wrong with your math and your logic.

i am confused about the expectation of incoming material that you have tried to interject. this discussion is based on processed material. and a extrapolation correlation of known material. the relevant value of recovery vs a fixed cost and viability of an ongoing process.

i did make an assumption that everyone involved in this discussion to date was a professional with a fair amount of experience in this business. i have been playing with electronic scrap, off and on, for 35 years. and i am still asking the same question. that same question that is constantly being posed on this forum. looking for a decent processor/refiner.

 

[rbrooks715]

nick: i would love to find a processor that would return the dore to me. know of any? that will return the actual amount recovered? the profits from all of the recovered metals, instead of the normal 5, would be well worth it.

and i will agree that the new kids in this business have this notion that a few pounds of boards are going to make them millionaires. some of the ***** buyers on ebay are doing their best. my discussion concerns those of us who do this consistently. i have no great expectations of miraculous returns. i do expect an honest transaction. which is difficult, impossible, to find amongst the current processors.

the problem is not the fee structure, per se. it is the concern over the inconsistent recovery rates. i have seen 30% differences in same lot materials. unacceptable. and in my case, all the metal i am not being paid on. the lead, nickel, tin, etc. then the difference in how spot prices are configured for the 5 metals being paid. i am simply looking for transparency and honesty. if i have to follow the entire lot for the entire time it is being processed, then there is a problem.

 

[skippy]

rbrooks, I haven't been following the whole thread but do you think the refiners are making much money off the tin, lead and nickel? To me it's not an obvious assumption.

 

[Lou]

Brooks, to be clear: I don't do boards. I've been to many places that do smelt the boards (as a rep). I'm not an e-waste guy. There's no refining done in e-waste. It's recovery. It's expensive.
If you're not following your lot, then you should have a representative there at least until the crude anode material is made and then obtain a sample and get a third party assay. You have to remember that the people who do the board processing (9/10 cases) are not the end of the road; rather it goes to the large copper consolidator and they have to wait on the slimes to be processed. More hands that touch the material, more potential for accountability issues. You want an honest transaction? Be the thorn in their side that keeps them honest by insisting on repping the lots and third party assay.

I never said I concur with anything. I'm not saying $5/pound is a fair or reasonable treatment charge, but I am saying that $1/lb seems great on the face of it, but without actually getting the assay report there may be something to worry about. There's such a variety in the quality of e-scrap out there, even just calling something "low grade" or "mid grade" doesn't do it justice. They're qualitative terms used in a quantitative fashion. I guess if you're getting computers in from the public or local municipalities as a waste recycler/collector and it's mostly free and all you have is labor, then it's a different story than if you were buying boards from small consolidators by the 2000 lb lot. Don't know enough about your situation or 35 years doing e-scrap to understand your perspective. I imagine you've seen recoveries go down over the years as technology has gotten better and plating ever thinner. I don't see how lots could even be close to consistent, unless you scrapped 20,000 lbs of mainframe and sent it in two batches, at which point I'd expect it to be within a couple percent. If anything, newer e-scrap should have more consistent recovery than the older stuff because now things are made to five/six sigma and they have eliminated many process variables in pursuit of lean manufacturing. Unless you have a book collection of "I sent in 100 of intel XXXXXX model boards and it yielded these metals in these recoveries", I don't understand how you can extrapolate much anything on so called "known" material. Did you ever think that some smelters have better process methodologies? That different operators of instrumentation can produce markedly different results?

Frankly, I'd rather pay a fair price to the smelter/"refiner" that allows them to get their just desserts than have the expectation that a flat $0.90 fee per pound will cover all costs associated with the recovery (unless they run 100,000lbs/week or more). I hear customers say they'd rather have a fair 97% on gold than a crooked 99%. It's been my experience in this business that the harder to assay the material is (the more inhomogeneous), the more likely a refiner is to screw you. That's why I prefer to deal in higher grade material that is easily sampled and assayed. Even then, you're only as good as your sampling methodology and instrumentation. I run considerable risk buying some material outright on simply XRF (especially powders). Sampling 25,000 lbs of boards appropriately is a difficult and expensive proposition.

I'm no apologist for the refining industry. As far as I see it, e-waste is the Wild West of recovering material and is primarily a base metals proposition that has silver lining in the PMs. It's a complex, difficult-to-assay material that unfortunately lends itself to people getting ripped off. Good luck with it.

 

[rbrooks715]

There's no refining done in e-waste. It's recovery.<<

i am unaware of any processors in the u.s. who do it all in house. there are a few in the e.u. everyone here recovers and then sends the bar out. i wonder why none of the processors will ever return the bar.

Did you ever think that some smelters have better process methodologies? <<

technology has changed. a lot. the old days of throwing it all in a furnace and hoping are mostly gone.

I'm not saying $5/pound is a fair or reasonable treatment charge,<<

the problem is the value that must be recovered to offset that $5/lb fee. as i have shown, motherboards would have to return about $12/lb in order for the buyer to have any profit. ( based on what some buyers pay) i have never seen any evidence of that value, the conclusion is that the costs to process are not as high as you believe or the processors are really ripping their customers off.so far, not one rep from any processor has bothered to get involved in any of the discussions on refiners/processors beyond a statement that they are the best. why not?

I don't understand how you can extrapolate much anything on so called "known" material.<<

you gave the answer. i have sent similar lots to different processors. and received widely different recovery assessments. as much as 30%. i send 1000lb ddr lots to 3 processors i should get very close recovery amounts. i don't. i am not alone in that regard. it should not happen.

I imagine you've seen recoveries go down over the years as technology has gotten better and plating ever thinner. <<

not true. new assembly's contain more components, therefore more pm's. ie. a newer motherboard has far more onboard components than say an old 86 or 88 board. and while the plating is far more consistent, there is also more of it. cards are a whole different matter.

I hear customers say they'd rather have a fair 97% on gold than a crooked 99%. <<<

i agree. i am still waiting for a processor to show that.

and you are right. at the moment, escrap is a very difficult business.

i am a thorn. as evidenced by this thread.

and i am still waiting for any of the processors or their reps to join in.

 

[rbrooks715]

rbrooks, I haven't been following the whole thread but do you think the refiners are making much money off the tin, lead and nickel? To me it's not an obvious assumption.<<

lead: $1.22
tin: $12.88
nickel: $10.91
indium: $300.00 aprox.
copper: $4.40

i don't know what your definition of much is. but i look for every dollar i can get. i can't imagine refining karat material and accepting only a payout on the gold. giving the silver,pl and pd to the refiner.

unfortunately, there is too much assumption with escrap. sellers who think they have more than they do and processors who fail to provide transparency in their transactions.

 

[skippy]

http://www.swlf.ait.ac.th/IntlConf/Data/ICSSWM%20web/FullPaper/Session%20IV/4_04%20_Dr.Gongming%20Zhou_.pdf

There's a chem analysis of circuit boards in this document. If it's correct, processors could maybe make a bit of money off the tin, but essentially there's no profit in the nickel or lead.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Unless things have changed drastically, a refiner that incinerates the ewaste (still a common practice) and ends up shipping the metal (as refiner bars) and the pulps (ash) to a primary copper smelter, only gets paid for the PMs and the copper. Some of the other metals, such as nickel, actually invoke a penalty if there is too much of it. Some of these metals can screw up the process and make it more costly to extract the paid values. The limit on Ni used to be 5% in order to avoid the penalty. In any case, they didn't get paid for it. All this may be different today, but I doubt it. It is naive to think that the refiners get paid for all these base metals. They don't.

 

[rbrooks715]

http://www.swlf.ait.ac.th/IntlConf/Data ... 0Zhou_.pdf

There's a chem analysis of circuit boards in this document. If it's correct, processors could maybe make a bit of money off the tin, but essentially there's no profit in the nickel or lead.<<

first thing i noticed was the use of the term PCB (printed circuit board(s). without a parameter of type of board being used, the results are rather meaningless.


the second interesting constant are the number of individuals who make proclamations about a business they are not involved in. escrap is a rather strange and some what unique business. there are very few comparable's with metal scrap.

third is the very notable absence of any of the 'big' buyers of scrap or the processors of escrap being involved in the discussions of values or costs of escrap.

lou mentioned that escrap has a wild west flavor. i respectfully disagree. escrap has all the markings of the robber baron era. rife with innuendo, insinuations and outright cons and thieves. insider trading. sleight of hand.

before anyone feels they have been slighted, simply remember all of the posts and threads to be found on this forum concerning processors/refiners. how many times has someone posed a question about a reputable refiner/processor.

the notion that i must walk hand in hand, step for step, with a processor or refiner clearly shows what most really think about the integrity and honesty of those they deal with.

we grow so accustomed to our routines, we forget why we do them. and we no longer question why we continue to allow them.

i am simply tired of the 'as usual' approach. and i am upset by my own conclusion that i will have to process the material myself as the only means to receive an honest recovery. which will still leave me with the problem of an honest and fair return from a refiner. a chemist i am not. i leave the actual refining to those who are far better suited for that than i.

lou made an excellent point about honest percentages. i would prefer to pay a processing schedule based on an honest recovery. i also agree that everyone has to make a profit.

instead of all the conjecture about the true value, and the true costs. why don't the processors just step up and discuss this. that deafening silence says a lot.

 

[nickvc]

There was a processor/ refiner on your side of the pond but I believe in Canada if I remember correctly that some old clients used, again forgive me if I'm wrong but the name Noranda seems to be what comes to mind, I can't tell you how good or bad they were/are but the material was shipped from here in the UK to them so i assume they were paying fair prices but I know it was in big volume, this was 10 years+ ago so they might not still be around.
I'm sorry I can't give anymore information as to returns or turnaround times maybe other members have actually used them and can comment and even confirm whether they still exist.